Low memory problems

[heckler770]

Is it just me or is anyone else getting ever increasing low memory issues more and more frequently? I surf to a web site that has a moderate amount of grapics and the 770 chokes pretty fast. Forge running the RSS reader and a web page at the same time.... refreshing takes forever and it usually results in a crash. I know the email app is in trouble, but memory handling over-all seems to be a big problem. It's gotten worst after upgrading to the latest release (.......45.8). Mostly I just shut down and restart , but this is getting to be a real pain. I know this is a full fledged OS and not with out its quirks, but this is at times unuseable. Palm cannot multi task at all, but I expect a little more stability with the 770. There is very little I do that doesn't result in a low memory error.

Is there a setting I'm missing? I've tried setting the cache for the web browser at the highest and at zero- same probem (I haven't dug any deeper into the OS). eventualy massive slowdon to freeze up. Single apples at a time run great, but when the web is incorporated (this is a 'web pad') the problem start.

Any suggestions? Thanks! (otherwise I'm having a lot of fun with it)

KH

[Jerome]

A suggestion? Yes: you could try to reboot.

[joemadeus]

A suggestion? Yes: you could try to reboot.

This is one line I was hoping never to see applied to these devices. We're running Debian here, right? Not WinCE?


-j

[Hedgecore]

I'm a bit torn on how to view the 770, but here's the thing. It's not a PC and doesn't have all the faculties of one. Not only that, but it's still in it's infancy and is going to be prone to crashes and memory leaks that I think us early adopters will have to grit our teeth and bare. I'm venturing that the crashing device may have been thrown into hibernation again and again.

[Karel Jansens]

I'm a bit torn on how to view the 770, but here's the thing. It's not a PC and doesn't have all the faculties of one. Not only that, but it's still in it's infancy and is going to be prone to crashes and memory leaks that I think us early adopters will have to grit our teeth and bare. I'm venturing that the crashing device may have been thrown into hibernation again and again.

Well, that's what you get if you insist on developing a device that will run essentially a desktop version of Linux without swap space and subsequently give it the bare minimum of RAM.

Some call it "infancy", others might call it "stupid". Who's to say? For my money, the OP is dead-on right: this is Linux, not WinCE. Rebooting should not be an advice -- ever. If it is, there's something very seriously wrong with the 770...

[mikelococo]

Rebooting should not be an advice -- ever. If it is, there's something very seriously wrong with the 770...

Something is wrong, the included software has bugs. Several of the applications, including the web browser and the video player can get stuck and leave processes consuming memory. If you have terminal installed you can ps to find them and kill them (which is exactly what you do on desktop Debian when a process gets hung and you don't want to reboot). But rebooting works also and is good advice for someone who doesn't want to get into the terminal.

I'm not sure many folks have grappled with the idea of developing a complete hardware platform using open source methods. It means you have to have to release a product that isn't finished. Then you improve it, except rather than improving it all by yourself the whole world gets a chance to improve it with you. Ari (who works at Nokia on Open Source development and on the 770 in particular) has a good post (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/12/release-early-and-party.html) talking about how Nokia is trying to do this with the 770, and giving a nod to the memory-handling problems in particular.

Anyway, the software will improve. It'll improve faster if more people work to specifically characterize problems and create solutions for them instead proclaiming that the device is "stupid".

Mike

[putkowski]

Well, that's what you get if you insist on developing a device that will run essentially a desktop version of Linux without swap space and subsequently give it the bare minimum of RAM.

Some call it "infancy", others might call it "stupid". Who's to say? For my money, the OP is dead-on right: this is Linux, not WinCE. Rebooting should not be an advice -- ever. If it is, there's something very seriously wrong with the 770...

"Reboot" shouldn't be in the Debian lexicon, but what's a hacker to do?

I'm sure I won't be alone in working on the swap-space issue. As soon as I put in a 1Gb rs-mmc, I won't be worrying about taking it out any time soon.

I think we're also going to need a little more of Linux... there's a HOWTO use USB to network from a Linux box, for example. The only problem is the commands aren't on the 770...

Paul

[waddell]

it helps to use the load/memory applet. When browsing, if you start to run low on memory, restart the browser before any popups about low memory appear, i.e. before things start to get "wonky". Also, try to avoid using the bookmark manager - instead tap the globe to access your bookmarks. Just a work-around of course.

[Karel Jansens]

"Reboot" shouldn't be in the Debian lexicon, but what's a hacker to do?

I'm sure I won't be alone in working on the swap-space issue. As soon as I put in a 1Gb rs-mmc, I won't be worrying about taking it out any time soon.

I think we're also going to need a little more of Linux... there's a HOWTO use USB to network from a Linux box, for example. The only problem is the commands aren't on the 770...

Paul

I once mused about using a memory card as swap; until I realized that is one of the most self-destructive things one could do: flash memory has a finite number of writes and using one for swap will wear it out faster than you'd think possible. It wouldn't be that much of a problem if the 770 had 2 expansion slots: one could use a cheap, small card for swap and basically throw it away when "used up". You won't be that happy when your 1 gig card starts losing sectors faster than 40+ year old hair.

I still think the best bet for the 770's success is if, in the spirit of the Sharp Zaurus, a completely Nokia-less distribution is cobbled together. Imagine a Debian-based distro with normal user management, non-restricted file management, maybe IceWM or E as its window manager instead of resource-clogging Gnome... Heck, even the memory leakage is due to badly implemented userspace software rather than problems at the O/S level.

[Karel Jansens]

it helps to use the load/memory applet. When browsing, if you start to run low on memory, restart the browser before any popups about low memory appear, i.e. before things start to get "wonky". Also, try to avoid using the bookmark manager - instead tap the globe to access your bookmarks. Just a work-around of course.

That's almost word for word the kind of advice people were given in the Windows 3.x days.

This is not the Linux way. It's not even the Way Of Mrs. Cosmopilite.

[Karel Jansens]

Something is wrong, the included software has bugs. Several of the applications, including the web browser and the video player can get stuck and leave processes consuming memory. If you have terminal installed you can ps to find them and kill them (which is exactly what you do on desktop Debian when a process gets hung and you don't want to reboot). But rebooting works also and is good advice for someone who doesn't want to get into the terminal.

I'm not sure many folks have grappled with the idea of developing a complete hardware platform using open source methods. It means you have to have to release a product that isn't finished. Then you improve it, except rather than improving it all by yourself the whole world gets a chance to improve it with you. Ari (who works at Nokia on Open Source development and on the 770 in particular) has a good post (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/12/release-early-and-party.html) talking about how Nokia is trying to do this with the 770, and giving a nod to the memory-handling problems in particular.

Anyway, the software will improve. It'll improve faster if more people work to specifically characterize problems and create solutions for them instead proclaiming that the device is "stupid".

Mike

I've read Ari's blogpost, and frankly, I think it's a load of tosh. The "release early and often" philosophy pertains to Open Source where users, by definition, can test out the stuff before committing their hard-earned shekels to it. Contrary to what you might like to believe, the Nokia 770 is _not_ an open device: you cannot recreate copies of it in your DVD-writer to hand out to your friends, the hardware specs are not published in their entirity and even significant parts of the software are very firmly closed source.

If I have to shell out almost 400 Euros to find out something doesn't work properly yet, I'd rather not, thankyouverymuch.

[mikelococo]

Contrary to what you might like to believe, the Nokia 770 is _not_ an open device: you cannot recreate copies of it in your DVD-writer to hand out to your friends, the hardware specs are not published in their entirity and even significant parts of the software are very firmly closed source.

Based on your first criteria, even devices based on opencores.org designs aren't open. Hardware is a tangible good and it costs money. The computer you're running your gratis open source software on costs money, and can't be handed out to friends. The 770 is no different, it's just smaller and cuter ;)

As to your other criteria, I'd be interested to hear what project you've been unable to complete due to a lack of source or specs. It's true that not *everything* is available, but a tremendous amount is, and no portable device from a major manufacturer comes close except possibly the Zaurus.

I don't think that the 770 is any buggier than your average first-generation device, but I understand your frustration. You want a device that just works. I just think it's worth noting that there are other folks who want a flexible, open hardware platform. They're willing to find, report, and sometimes fix bugs to get it. If you do eventually pick up a 770 when the 06 firmware is released, you'll have all the folks working with the device now to thank for the improvements that Nokia couldn't have done alone. I just don't get why you're so angry that the device is available now to people who want it in its current state.

Mike

[waddell]

That's almost word for word the kind of advice people were given in the Windows 3.x days.

This is not the Linux way. It's not even the Way Of Mrs. Cosmopilite.

I believe the original post in the thread asked specifically for suggestions on how to cope with the current problems? I was probably just confused since I was raised in a farming community.

[druja]

This is why I think it was a mistake to push the device out to CompUSA before filling online orders. It basically says that Nokia considers the device ready for public consumption, and not developer or early-adopter trials. The device is beta. Fine. I read all about that on these forums and knew exactly what I was getting into when I bought it. Frankly the low memory issues aren't a problem for me normally. The load/mem app makes it possible for me to see how much memory is in use and I can manage around it. I've also loaded some fairly large pages without problems. The device can multitask, but I don't think Nokia really gave it enough memory to do much of that. On a desktop, web browsing eats a _lot_ of ram. How is that going to be any different on a small tablet like this? If you're linux savvy try setting up an ad blocking proxy and that might reduce some of the image/flash burden on some pages. It really should have had more ram, but that is set in stone now. Maybe someone will figure out how to rip them open and solder in larger ram and flash chips. I remember that happening with the early linux on pocketpc devices.

[heckler770]

Thank you all for the replies.

I'm pretty well aware oft he nature of the 770 being a first gen device having had a Palm Pilot the week it came out and a few of the first few Win CE frustrations...er devices. And I'm not very familiar with linux, but it's been something I've been meaning to get better aquainted with for a while. Thanks to the 770 piquing my interest, I just loaded 'Fedora' on my spare pc. :) (came in a Linux mag, lol)

The taboo 'reboot' is what I have been doing so far. The original intention of my first post was to ask if anyone was able to get better performance and what the secret was..... if any. Sounds like it may be a case of growing pain for the time being.

Thank again!

[Karel Jansens]

Based on your first criteria, even devices based on opencores.org designs aren't open. Hardware is a tangible good and it costs money. The computer you're running your gratis open source software on costs money, and can't be handed out to friends. The 770 is no different, it's just smaller and cuter ;)

Hence my point that it's rather dishonest to call the Nokia 770 an "open device". It is a proprietary hardware device that happens to run Open Source software, mostly, I reckon, because that's cheaper for Nokia (especially if they can pull a Microsoftie and have people actually pay them to be betatesters.

As to your other criteria, I'd be interested to hear what project you've been unable to complete due to a lack of source or specs. It's true that not *everything* is available, but a tremendous amount is, and no portable device from a major manufacturer comes close except possibly the Zaurus.

I don't think that the 770 is any buggier than your average first-generation device, but I understand your frustration. You want a device that just works. I just think it's worth noting that there are other folks who want a flexible, open hardware platform. They're willing to find, report, and sometimes fix bugs to get it. If you do eventually pick up a 770 when the 06 firmware is released, you'll have all the folks working with the device now to thank for the improvements that Nokia couldn't have done alone. I just don't get why you're so angry that the device is available now to people who want it in its current state.

Mike

I do remember that the Sharp Zaurus 5000, their first incarnation of a Linux handheld device, did work without all the memory and software issues the 770 is riddled with. So it appears it is possible for a company to release a device based on Open Source software without the early adopters having to iron out the developers' mistakes. (Now, Sharp turned out to be *ssholes in abandoning their olde worlde Linux user base without even a word of goodbye. You might think about that, too: if Nokia dumps the 770 tomorrow -- see the 7710 story --there will be a lot of Open Source efforts gone to complete waste. This would be another argument not to focus on the Nokia-proprietary Linux distro, rather than on a more generic project such as one of the Zaurus destributions)

Additionnally, it also makes one wonder what was actually done between May and November, other than grooving about the coolness of the gizmo.

As to thanking users for ironing out the faults, yes, I'll probably do that. With a subdued snigger, because they paid for my flawless device. The biggest snigger, I fear, will be from Nokia, for having found so many simple souls to do their work for them.

[Mike Cane]

I can see things can get quite heated here.

I was amused by the mention of "The Linux Way." Hello: let's start thinking "The 770 Way" instead. I know there are many people here who are used to weightlifting with Linux, but many 770 users -- the intended general audience -- are not, nor do we wish to be. All this talk of using the Terminal to kill processes -- perhaps a tutorial should be written up for posting here at iiT for those of us who don't go below the GUI.

As for the OS being open source or not: Sure, the foundations are. What Nokia has added to it -- the GUI and several other things -- are not. That's their competitive edge, and to think they should do away with that is just foolish and worse than idealistic. Let's remember that the 770 is running Tablet PC OS, not vanilla Maemo. As it was explained to me at the shindig, any cheap Asian ODM can release a bare-bones device that people -- or companies -- can put Maemo on to compete with the 770. But all the GUI and other stuff would have to then be added to it -- and that stuff, like Nokia's, is bound to be held proprietary by whatever company creates it. As for the Zaurus comparison -- hey, the dev community is free to compete against what Nokia is doing, just as they did with the Zaurus. Go ahead and create a different GUI and all the rest of the little bits and release a distro that people can use instead of Nokia's creation.

I don't see much reason to complain. The dev community itself is free to forge its own revolution if they don't accept what Nokia has done/is doing. Average users get to use the 770 as it is right now -- and it is very useable right now, despite the transient memory handling problems.

-- edited to add:

Just one more thing: As for RAM-gobbling web pages, I see this as piggishness on the part of the *sites*. How do they expect people to access their sites on-the-go if they require desktop resources as the price of admission? I don't see this as a 770 problem -- I see it as shortsightedness on the part of certain websites. We don't have a problem with just human physical obesity -- there are many websites whose pages are just too damned fat and need to slim down.

[Karel Jansens]

One last remark: I'm not heated. I'm actually quite aloof about it and tapping my messages in a relaxed and easy-going way.

And if you don't believe me, F*CK YOU, ^SSHOLE!!! :)

(D^mn. B*sted ^nother keybo^rd)

[jaycee]

I can see things can get quite heated here.
Me2, with quotes such as this:

As for the OS being open source or not: Sure, the foundations are. What Nokia has added to it -- the GUI and several other things -- are not. That's their competitive edge, and to think they should do away with that is just foolish and worse than idealistic.
I've got to disagree with you here, Mike. I'm on the more "idealistic" side of the fence but would definately not count myself as a GPL-nazi or some such term. I don't, however, agree with the argument (and I'm not trying to restate your point, wrongly, and then disagree with it) that an open source device need only be open source so far up and down the software stack.

If Nokia wants to leverage (a) FLOSS software (b) the FLOSS community (c) the FLOSS toolset and (d) the FLOSS mindset to create a new device, then I believe that they should seriously examine the level to which the device should be "open".

And, in case it's not clear from the above, I believe that this level should be "very low down indeed" and "very high up, too". :)

Cheers!
Jaycee

[Mike Cane]

When you start throwing around terms like FLOSS, you lose me. This is the level of detail that someone like Roger Sperberg gets into. I've not studied open source, I'm not a Linux techie, I'm not a dev. In all these senses, I come to the argument unarmed. You may fight amongst yourselves.

[waddell]

When you start throwing around terms like FLOSS, you lose me. This is the level of detail that someone like Roger Sperberg gets into. I've not studied open source, I'm not a Linux techie, I'm not a dev. In all these senses, I come to the argument unarmed. You may fight amongst yourselves.


I agree with Mike vis a vis people fighting amoungst themselves.
But, I'd like to go one step further. Can we close this thread and those interested can start new ones? What I'd like to see is a constructive discussion about ways to fix the problems at the OS level, although that might be something that should live on one of the maemo.org sites instead of ITT.

[Jerome]

This is one line I was hoping never to see applied to these devices. We're running Debian here, right? Not WinCE?


-j
Well, yes we are running Debian, but it is not imune to memory leaks. Rebooting is the simple way to solve the problem.

Now, since we are runnig Debian, you can open a console, type ps-ax and look at what processes are active, use top to find out which one gobbles memory and kill -9 to get rid of it. Is this what you wanted to know?

[Jerome]

If I have to shell out almost 400 Euros to find out something doesn't work properly yet, I'd rather not, thankyouverymuch.

Then don't buy a computer. Any computer.

Heck, even my Apple bugs from time to time. Rarely, it's one of the bests and that is why I bought it, but sometimes it does.

[heckler770]

Yikes, I didn't mean for this topic to go off the map. I do appreciate the level of help that was offered, but I guess I didn't quite express the fact that my linux savvy was far below par. This may have opened things up to more levels than just telling me "Reboot- noob....it will get fixed later" :)

Anyway, it appears there is a lively group participating in this forum and that's always a good thing IMHO.

Cheers all!

[Jerome]

I own 3 different Zaurii. Don't get me started on the software and memory issues. Oh: and it corrupted flash cards as well.

The 770 is neither better nor worse. I miss the keyboard, I like bluetooth, wifi and the screen. I miss the extra memory. The linux software was neither better nor worse in quality, especially at the beginning.

[Jerome]

Maybe you should read what warranty you get on your flash card and you would stop worrying about wear...

[joemadeus]

Yikes, I didn't mean for this topic to go off the map.

I'll take the blame for that, with a comment I should have known would cause a fuss. Sorry, folks.

Now, since we are runnig Debian, you can open a console, type ps-ax and look at what processes are active, use top to find out which one gobbles memory and kill -9 to get rid of it. Is this what you wanted to know?

Well, I just figured out how to get into the shell :) This device is not only marketed to people who know how to use a prompt, though, and a more intelligent way to detect apps that are out of control and reign them in might be in order -- one that includes a non-command line UI.


-j