new, open source Linux tablet, 7" with kde plasma !!! [Archive] - maemo.org

luca

01-28-2012, 07:50 AM

not to seem like i'm complaining, but this is the same platform that is used in those 120$ chinese tablets...so why does this cost 100€ more, since linux is free, im sure its made in china and im sure that there is no hardware quality difference when compared to those cheap chinese androids...

The question is, do those $120 tablets have every driver in the mainline kernel or do they need binary blobs?
Of course the same question applies to this 200€ tablet, since even the raspberry pi depends on binary blobs.
That wouldn't be a problem if there were binary blobs available for every new kernel revision, but that's generally not the case and a perfectly functional device cannot be kept up to date.

geneven

01-28-2012, 07:56 AM

The linked item says it will be available "soon". I hope so.

www.rzr.online.fr

01-28-2012, 07:59 AM

some info about the CPU vendors
http://armdevices.net/category/chip-provider/amlogic/

I suppose there will be similar android products on that platform

--
http://rzr.online.fr/q/mid

m4r0v3r

01-28-2012, 08:15 AM

i want this to attempt cordia on it.

GrimyHR

01-28-2012, 08:41 AM

some info about the CPU vendors
http://armdevices.net/category/chip-provider/amlogic/

I suppose there will be similar android products on that platform

--
http://rzr.online.fr/q/mid

there are, exactly same android tablets, same soc, same amount of ram, same 7" screen, couple of usb-s, hdmi, and so on, maybe even a exactly same platform(case and all :p) as one of them and just changed the OS

don_falcone

01-28-2012, 08:42 AM

i want this to attempt cordia on it.

Any (recent) "news" about Cordia at all?

GrimyHR

01-28-2012, 09:18 AM

i hope this tablet doesnt atleast suffer from the same issue as its android counterparts, android tablets with this soc have 40% worse 3d performance than those with allwinner a10 soc(cortex a8 @1.2ghz, up to 1.5ghz without custom kernels and the same "dual" core mali 400 gpu...)
and much worse cpu score in quadrant also...

benny1967

01-28-2012, 09:34 AM

And with Mer too..

Aaron mentions Mer in the "Credits" secion of his blog post, but stays unclear about the actual relationship between Spark and Mer. Is the OS we'll see on Spark really based on Mer? Or did the Mer project "only" (...) help with their expertise every now and then?

(In other words: Will Spark run "an instance of Mer" :) ?)

Stskeeps

01-28-2012, 11:28 AM

Aaron mentions Mer in the "Credits" secion of his blog post, but stays unclear about the actual relationship between Spark and Mer. Is the OS we'll see on Spark really based on Mer? Or did the Mer project "only" (...) help with their expertise every now and then?

(In other words: Will Spark run "an instance of Mer" :) ?)

Plasma Active builds on top of multiple OS'es, it being KDE and all, but from what I know, it's PA on top of Mer.

They (Basyskom, Plasma Active, etc) are actively involved with doing PA on top of Mer, most of the demos they've shown outside PC world has been on top of Mer.

I agree the relationship is looking a bit murky from that blog post, but what's being advertised is their product (Plasma Active + Spark) - Mer is just a tool to make this work and do it easier.

(We don't do instances or even murky trademark stuff - people base on Mer or they don't - it's a technical question)

tso

01-28-2012, 01:21 PM

Ok, i normally ignore 7 inches because they are too small for reading PDFs and such and too large for pocket carry. But this i want!

m4r0v3r

01-28-2012, 02:09 PM

Any (recent) "news" about Cordia at all?

well they couldn't find a vendor that would release the drivers and kernel i think, but they've continued to work on the netbooks and have made some good progress building it on Mer. Sure the N900 release doesn't seem far but they've updated there site recently with some news about building it on GTK3 i think. but if this platform is completely open it would be perfect.

curryfun

01-28-2012, 02:43 PM

24783

24784

24785

Some extra pics of the tablet :)

tso

01-28-2012, 03:15 PM

Too bad the host port is not full size, but i guess one can't have everything.

hstende

01-28-2012, 03:51 PM

It's looking very much like this android tablet

http://www.tikkitoo.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=78
http://www.mcbub.com/item/A9-Tablet-Zenithink-ZT-280-C71-5-Point-Capacitive-Touchscreen-Android-2-3-Camera-HDMI--CN105788--139248/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q73MTvkMd1M

impact

01-28-2012, 04:29 PM

Probably the same factory making it.

tso

01-28-2012, 05:48 PM

The number of OEM/ODMs at events like CES is staggering.

GrimyHR

01-28-2012, 05:55 PM

this is a big no-no for me:
Amlogic AM8726(cortex a9+mali 400)
Quadrant: 2000
CPU: 2667, Mem: 1175, I/O: 5652, 2D: 99, 3D: 407
Neocore: 25.1 FPS

AllWinner A10(cortex a8+mali 400)
Quadrant Total: 1537
CPU: 4471, Mem: 1495, I/O: 688, 2D: 232, 3D: 798
Neocore: 53.9 FPS

Rockchip 2918(cortex a8+vivante gc800)
Quadrant: 1333
CPU: 2921, Mem: 954, I/O: 1971, 2D: 117, 3D: 700
Neocore: 58.0 FPS

sooo...three newer cheap chinese chips and they choose the crapiest by far...its certanly not beacuse other two were expensive since tablets with those two go for about 120$...i would like to bet the guy that chose the soc for this tablet, because otherwise i might have bought it when it comes out even with this kinda high price...

MartinK

01-28-2012, 06:05 PM

shmerl

01-28-2012, 07:38 PM

Please move this thread out of "competitors" to the main section here:

http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45

I believe this forum already doesn't consider itself Nokia owned, therefore "competitors" term really bears no meaning in this context. I proposed however to open a separate section here or even forum for Mer and derivatives, but no one was interested so far.

Mer and derivatives are the future of Meego, and not "competitors" (to what?).

Kangal

01-28-2012, 08:18 PM

I welcome thee New Open Pandora!

May you only take 2 months to ship!

tso

01-29-2012, 04:42 AM

this is a big no-no for me:
Amlogic AM8726(cortex a9+mali 400)
Quadrant: 2000
CPU: 2667, Mem: 1175, I/O: 5652, 2D: 99, 3D: 407
Neocore: 25.1 FPS

Weird numbers, those. It's as if they choked everything else to get that impressive IO.

What is the source btw?

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 05:15 AM

A more powerful tablet is still of no use if it just runs Android and not a proper Linux stack (kernel + userspace + GUI toolkits) and there is no source for the kernel (the problem Cordia faced with their tablet).

i know, but since we are talking about equaly cheap hardware, there is no sane reason not to use it, this soc has around 10% better qudrant result than the soc in n900 except in IO...so no reason for a n900 user to buy it
there is obviously a bottleneck in this soc which by my educated guess is not cpu or gpu but something else that cripples them...

rezults are from slatedroid

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 05:26 AM

only potentialy good thing i see here is that if this tablet is hardware wise same as some ultra cheap chinese one i can just pay 120$ for the tablet and tax to my country and than just put the OS from this one on it :p

tso

01-29-2012, 05:44 AM

i know, but since we are talking about equaly cheap hardware, there is no sane reason not to use it, this soc has around 10% better qudrant result than the soc in n900 except in IO...so no reason for a n900 user to buy it
there is obviously a bottleneck in this soc which by my educated guess is not cpu or gpu but something else that cripples them...

rezults are from slatedroid

copied from slatedroid, best i can tell they are all devices based on the same SoC:

[2] Amlogic AM8726 - A9 @ 800 MHz or 1 GHz O/C + ARM Mali-400
*Great Linpack & CPU scores, great 2D, weaker I/O and good 3D.

7" Anku?
http://www.androidat...id=58&Itemid=70

Linpack: 21.6 Mflops
Quadrant: ???
CPU: 2655, Mem: 1297, I/O: 489, 2D: 236, 3D: 444

W10
http://www.pcpop.com.../657420_1.shtml

Linpack: 19 Mflops
Quadrant: 997
CPU: 2768, Mem: 1032, I/O: 501, 2D: 238, 3D: 447

Ten SmartQ (aml8726) (1024x768)
http://www.isyo.net/...php?tid-33.html

Quadrant: 2434
CPU: 2142, Mem: 1289, I/O: 8178, 2D: 120, 3D: 442
Neocore: 29.7 FPS

Zenithink C91 (aml8726 @ 1 GHz) (1024x600)
http://b.it168.com/t...714746-1-1.html

Quadrant: 1748
CPU: 2661, Mem: 935, I/O: 4627, 2D: 144, 3D: 373

Ainol NOVO 8 (1280x768)
http://micdigi.com/2...s-of-haipad-m8/
http://bbs.imp3.net/...315006-1-1.html

Quadrant: 2000
CPU: 2667, Mem: 1175, I/O: 5652, 2D: 99, 3D: 407
Neocore: 25.1 FPS

What is interesting that some report much higher IO than others. And that high IO seems to match out with low 2D performance. In the end i wonder if we are looking at more of a driver issue than a hardware issue.

Also, the Amlogic is clocked at 800Mhz, yet it appears to keep pace with A8 SoC clocked at 1Ghz or even 1.5Ghz in some cases:
http://www.slatedroid.com/topic/21022-tablet-performance-comparison/page__p__220518#entry220518

But i don't mind, for me the benefits of a truly open stack (and the long term benefits of that) outweighs potential performance issues.

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 06:42 AM

i also hope that its just a driver issue, since at least 3d performance should be almost twice than what it is, if it is and if its solved than i can think of this as a viable option to replace my n900... until then i wouldn't give even half of what they are planing to ask for it...

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 07:13 AM

found the same tablet: http://www.pandawill.com/upad7-tablet-pc-7-inch-capacitive-screen-android-23-cortex-a9-hdmi-4gb-camera-p50737.html
just look at the touch buttons in the photo in the first post and then the ones on this one that i linked...port positioning and everything else is also exactly same
just because i want a open source gnu/linux powered device, doesnt mean i will settle for sub par hardware for a steep price(when compared to what i'm getting for it...)

ups, didnt see someone posted this one already, so if this goes somewhere ill just buy this zenithink and flash their linux when they finish it :p

hstende

01-29-2012, 07:22 AM

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 07:32 AM

I think an allwinner a10 tablet that can be oc to 1.5Ghz with 1GB RAM would be nice for running linux as we got the kernel source for it, and the Mali400

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=arm_mali_reverse&num=1

http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/kernel_compile/

yes it would, and i don't want to insult anyone, but people behind this project are kinda *something insulting*...at least the one that chose the platform...

Zoxir

01-29-2012, 07:57 AM

Will this be available worldwide and what's with them not announcing the OS this is based on?

MartinK

01-29-2012, 09:22 AM

This is probably why it has the Mali 400 GPU:
An Open-Source, Reverse-Engineered Mali GPU Driver (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=arm_mali_reverse&num=1)
Announcing The Lima Open-Source GPU Driver (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA0OTQ)

So this thing really has the potential to be FULLY open source, without a closed GPU driver - which is major blocker in most other devices.

benny1967

01-29-2012, 09:25 AM

...and what's with them not announcing the OS this is based on?

What? They did announce it, in fact the excitement about this one device is only because of the OS, not because of the hardware.

:confused:

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 09:25 AM

benny1967

01-29-2012, 09:30 AM

just because i want a open source gnu/linux powered device, doesnt mean i will settle for sub par hardware for a steep price(when compared to what i'm getting for it...)

I think you're just not in the target group. - Most people who'll buy this pioneer device will buy it for the open GNU/Linux stack and will hardly look into the hardware details as long as the browser won't choke when rendering popular websites. - For all I read about the C71, the hardware isn't exciting but decent enough.

GrimyHR

01-29-2012, 09:57 AM

I think you're just not in the target group. - Most people who'll buy this pioneer device will buy it for the open GNU/Linux stack and will hardly look into the hardware details as long as the browser won't choke when rendering popular websites. - For all I read about the C71, the hardware isn't exciting but decent enough.

lol, pioneer my ***...i use gnu/linux on all my devices and im a gnu/linux fanboy, but im not going to justify their poor choice and praise just because its linux, my criticism is completly valid until i'm proven wrong
dont get me wrong, i would adore a device similar to this one, but made with better choice of hardware for the same price and with gnu/linux as OS, this one just fails by my opinion unles the problem is in the android drivers and will be fixed in this(which i dont believe is the case)
if the problem is in the drivers, ill just buy a 125$ variant of this tablet and flash the OS from this 200€ variant, maybe donate them 20$ if possible afterwards

sulu

01-29-2012, 07:03 PM

The question is, do those $120 tablets have every driver in the mainline kernel or do they need binary blobs?
Of course the same question applies to this 200€ tablet, since even the raspberry pi depends on binary blobs.That's the central question here.

That wouldn't be a problem if there were binary blobs available for every new kernel revision, but that's generally not the case and a perfectly functional device cannot be kept up to date.Even if there were guaranteed binary blobs for every kernel version it would still be a problem because these blobs would still be proprietary.
Seeing this as a problem is the very difference between Open Source and Free Software.

tso

01-30-2012, 09:03 AM

And a problem anyone that has owned a N8x0 knows by heart.

Stskeeps

01-31-2012, 03:10 PM

Relationship with Mer much more explained in http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/01/open-beyond-licensing.html

(BTW, if anyone speculates, I'm not involved with this except in my function as project architect in Mer, let's see where I'll end up :)

cipper

02-07-2012, 03:43 AM

Spark Linux tablet specs updated, going up for pre-order next week:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/05/spark-linux-tablet-specs-updated-going-up-for-pre-order-next-we/

I don't know, for this price I expected at least a 10" screen + 1GB ram. How this compares with kindle fire?

Estel

02-07-2012, 08:58 AM

CordiaTAB deja-vu...

tso

02-07-2012, 09:36 AM

Time will tell if it ends the same way...

Estel

02-07-2012, 10:06 AM

I'm quite convinced, that Spark will make it into customers hands. My comment was rather about presented specification. Still, it doesn't seem to be "this thing".

/Estel

jschan

02-07-2012, 11:36 AM

I'm curious (truly curious, not meant to question or attack in any way): what do you guys foresee using this (or any linux based tablet without a keyboard) for?

I'm trying to imagine how I'd want to use one myself, and I can't come up with much as it's not an all-in-one package I can carry around nor is it built for productivity. If I needed productivity, I think I'd rather stick with a more traditional, better supported laptop solution where I'd also get more bang for my buck (at least currently).

I think of tablets as a device for information consumption, and in those terms, I don't really have a preference for a particular OS as long as the apps I need and widgets I'd like are supported. However, with a capacitive touch device, I'd prefer apps designed for touch interfaces quickly working their way towards more stability and functionality rather than very stable, full featured apps that aren't getting very much love (if any) towards reworking the usability aspects. I can imagine feeling the opposite way for a device that that had a keyboard, mouse, and/or a more accurate touch screen solution, but that's not the case with this tablet.

don_falcone

02-07-2012, 11:43 AM

Does the Spark variant it still have the Android capacitive buttons from the C71? Looks like. If so, why?

pelago

02-07-2012, 12:06 PM

Does the Spark variant it still have the Android capacitive buttons from the C71? Looks like. If so, why?

Why? Because it's much cheaper to reuse existing hardware than design new hardware.

GrimyHR

02-07-2012, 12:35 PM

Does the Spark variant it still have the Android capacitive buttons from the C71? Looks like. If so, why?
beacause they are just buying 120$(with shipping) android tablet, flashing gnu linux on it and selling it for more than twice its original price(without the price of shipping)

tso

02-07-2012, 05:08 PM

rm42

02-07-2012, 10:25 PM

I may get one for my wife. She just wants to use the web and a few other basic things. This should fit the bill just fine and give me a toy to ply with. :)

don_falcone

02-08-2012, 05:36 AM

beacause they are just buying 120$(with shipping) android tablet, flashing gnu linux on it and selling it for more than twice its original price(without the price of shipping)

That's why i asked, exactly. (for me) There's no point in a 100% premium (way less would be quite ok!) when the hardware is unchanged; i could just buy the Droid then. Or is there a difference in bootloader etc.?

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 02:26 PM

That's why i asked, exactly. (for me) There's no point in a 100% premium (way less would be quite ok!) when the hardware is unchanged; i could just buy the Droid then. Or is there a difference in bootloader etc.?

i dont think so, im almost certain that they are simply buying the android tablet and flashing the new OS image, probably with the same flasher used for flashing android on that same tablet, and than charging alot of money for GNU/Linux that is supposed to be free(and here it costs as much as windows...)

marxian

02-08-2012, 02:32 PM

That's why i asked, exactly. (for me) There's no point in a 100% premium (way less would be quite ok!) when the hardware is unchanged; i could just buy the Droid then. Or is there a difference in bootloader etc.?

This is the freerider's dilemma. What if everyone makes the rational choice to buy the cheaper tablet? That may jeopardise the project.

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 02:33 PM

Usually a low price means that a large quantity was bought. I suspect the first run of this will be a low number, both for lack of bootstrap funds and to avoid sitting on a large stock of something that is unlikely to get as much attention as Android.

that applies only when that device is not already on market with a much lower price tag, if this was a new device specially made by some manufacturer for them with their design in low quantities than your claim would be valid, in this case it is not

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 02:37 PM

This is the freerider's dilemma. What if everyone makes the rational choice to buy the cheaper tablet? That may jeopardise the project.

thay should have opted for telling people to buy that tablet(android one) after they published the os and asked people to donate 20-30$ for their hard work, im sure most of the FOSS community that would have used it would be glad to do it, but this is just greedy behavoiur

impact

02-08-2012, 02:48 PM

Well it's not gonna program itself, is it?

sulu

02-08-2012, 03:28 PM

charging alot of money for GNU/Linux that is supposed to be free(and here it costs as much as windows...)That's a common misconception. Linux is not supposed to be free of charge. Anybody can sell it for any price. There are or were numerous companies that sell or sold Linux:
Red Hat, Novell, Oracle, Linpus, Xandros, LinuxXP, Caldera/SCO
(just to name the ones that come to my mind immediately)

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 03:34 PM

That's a common misconception. Linux is not supposed to be free of charge. Anybody can sell it for any price. There are or were numerous companies that sell or sold Linux:
Red Hat, Novell, Oracle, Linpus, Xandros, LinuxXP, Caldera/SCO
(just to name the ones that come to my mind immediately)

those are free dists with paid SUPPORT ;)

all of them "unsupported" free versions for non-corporate usage

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 03:37 PM

Well it's not gonna program itself, is it?

actually they didnt develop it, not even 1% , are they going to share the money they earn with all the people that are developing linux for the last 20 years?

mrsellout

02-08-2012, 03:57 PM

Aaron Seigo's blog dated 2nd Feb (http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html)gives a good explanation of the project.
He does say on the very subject you're debating now:
Q: Does that mean I will be able to install Plasma Active on a C71 device I purchased elsewhere?
A: Yes, that's all in the spirit of openness. However, if you break it, you get to keep both pieces. :) Keep in mind that by purchasing a Spark you will help drive development of Plasma Active, Mer and the push towards an open ARM ecosystem.

Which is why I'm inclined to pre-order from them. This isn't just about buying a tablet; it's about trying to help back a new open device era.

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 04:03 PM

Aaron Seigo's blog dated 2nd Feb (http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html)gives a good explanation of the project.
He does say on the very subject you're debating now:

Which is why I'm inclined to pre-order from them. This isn't just about buying a tablet; it's about trying to help back a new open device era.
yeah...if this goes anywhere ill donate a sum of money to them that i consider fair, maybe even multiple times, depends on how long they continue to update the device...but im sure as hell not buying a device from them for this price and than risking to get stuck with an OS that is going nowhere...

wmarone

02-08-2012, 04:05 PM

thay should have opted for telling people to buy that tablet(android one) after they published the os and asked people to donate 20-30$ for their hard work, im sure most of the FOSS community that would have used it would be glad to do it, but this is just greedy behavoiur

You can always donate on your own.

But to call it greedy is likely to completely fail to understand what it's like dealing with a chinese OEM. I suspect part of the price may be in paying the OEM the ransom they're demanding for the kernel, combined with direct shipment of a low volume of tablets.

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 04:08 PM

You can always donate on your own.

But to call it greedy is likely to completely fail to understand what it's like dealing with a chinese OEM. I suspect part of the price may be in paying the OEM the ransom they're demanding for the kernel, combined with direct shipment of a low volume of tablets.

its 125$ shipped when ordering just one piece from retailer...it can just get lower than that when ordering more than one

for instance this tablet costs 88$ when ordered in quantity of 501 or more :p

sulu

02-08-2012, 04:11 PM

those are free dists with paid SUPPORT ;)

all of them "unsupported" free versions for non-corporate usageYou won't get RHEL for free without support. I tried two years ago. The same goes for SLES and Oracle.
LinuxXP is shareware that wil stop working after 30 days unless you buy a license.
Linpus and Xandros (stand alone) have never been available in binary form without buying them.
Caldera is discontinued.

bottom line: You won't get any of the distributions I mentioned in binary form without paying for it, regardless whether you want support for it or not.

wmarone

02-08-2012, 04:22 PM

its 125$ shipped when ordering just one piece from retailer...it can just get lower than that when ordering more than one

for instance this tablet costs 88$ when ordered in quantity of 501 or more :p

Which is fine if you're OK with the GPL violation. I suspect the price for a direct shipment is completely arbitrary on behalf of the OEM and a sizable percentage will be going to the PA project.

GrimyHR

02-08-2012, 04:26 PM

You won't get RHEL errrrrm, fedora? for free without support. I tried two years ago. The same goes for SLES OPENSuse? and Oracle Fedora again?.
LinuxXP Fedora yet again... is shareware that wil stop working after 30 days unless you buy a license.
Linpus and Xandros (stand alone) have never been available in binary form without buying them. contains a lot of proprietary crap, i dont consider it FOSS
Caldera is discontinued. xandros is also discontinued

bottom line: You won't get any of the distributions I mentioned in binary form without paying for it, regardless whether you want support for it or not.

ten chars!

impact

02-08-2012, 04:51 PM

yeah...if this goes anywhere ill donate a sum of money to them that i consider fair, maybe even multiple times, depends on how long they continue to update the device...but im sure as hell not buying a device from them for this price and than risking to get stuck with an OS that is going nowhere...

If I were to worry about such things as an OS that is going nowhere, I would have never bought the N9 in the first place, so that's a non-argument for me at least. :p

benny1967

02-08-2012, 05:03 PM

actually they didnt develop it, not even 1% , are they going to share the money they earn with all the people that are developing linux for the last 20 years?

You explained to us in various posts now that

a) you don't understand what the point of this project is
b) you don't care much, anyway
and
c) you're not gonna get one

I understand all that.

What I don't understand:
Why are you still around? Are you trying to convince everybody here that they shouldn't support this project? Are you going to spill as much hatred as you can in this thread, hoping to make the only promising tablet project since the N810 fail?

Kangal

02-08-2012, 11:35 PM

GrimyHR

02-09-2012, 05:28 AM

I'd say if they sold it for US$190 (inc shipping) it would make a lot more sense.

At that price point they are effectively competing/undercutting the Nook Color, Samsung Galaxy Tab (2010), Kindle Fire, Nook Tablet and the RIM PlayBook. And possibly the HTC Flyer too.

yes, but this is how much it would cost me:
200€ for the tablet
around 30€ for shipping from EU to a neighboring croatia
15€ for some imaginery customs cost
than 23% tax on all that that comes to 300€ or 400$ so not such a nice price tag
and also there is a 35$ fee for certification from HAKOM(our agency for everything with any radio freq) so i can import it for personal use, and that is only if this tablet has EC declaration of conformity
i can buy an acer iconia tab a500 for that price here...

as for the guy above im rigt to have my opinion that is supported by facts, and i have a right to express it here and who doesnt want to read it doesn't have to, just because this is FOSS doesnt mean it should be overpriced or that we should settle for anything

i am the voice of reason here, deal with it :p

don_falcone

02-09-2012, 06:20 AM

GrimyHR

02-09-2012, 06:46 AM

Huh? So much trouble? I've never had issues bringing electronics / computer parts from US to DE, nor my colleagues. Sometimes, those were even shipped before from HK to US.

(You have 430EUR free for imports anyway, so no customs.)

actualy if you are in germany its 45€ by post if i recal correctly from my time being there, and 430€ might be when personaly carying over the border
i have no custom for electronics(except some imaginary expenses...) just need to pay tax when value is over 20€ by post or 150€ personaly transported

for me the biggest problem is that ec declaration of conformity(certificate that it is in compliance with EU regulations) which is not neded for personal import in EU but is needed here...irony at its finest...

Stskeeps

02-09-2012, 06:52 AM

BTW, if you guys didn't see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wbyyA9X4Qk

don_falcone

02-09-2012, 08:16 AM

actualy if you are in germany its 45€ by post if i recal correctly from my time being there, and 430€ might be when personaly carying over the border
i have no custom for electronics(except some imaginary expenses...) just need to pay tax when value is over 20€ by post or 150€ personaly transported

for me the biggest problem is that ec declaration of conformity(certificate that it is in compliance with EU regulations) which is not neded for personal import in EU but is needed here...irony at its finest...

Ok, i seldom get packages from (outside DE) directly; its almost always via personal transfer, either me or my colleagues. (It happened that i fed'exed something between offices and this seemed smooth going too.)

But if coming directly from HK (flash cards, devices), marking item as 'gift' or other tricks seems still to work - the last time i paid customs here was in 2002 i think, for a camera battery and grip (...).

Thanks for the explanation though. (Do you have someone outside Croatia as a kind of "freight-forwarder" for you?)

don_falcone

02-09-2012, 08:17 AM

BTW, if you guys didn't see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wbyyA9X4Qk

Are the buttons used / usable for anything? i.e., are they latched?

GrimyHR

02-09-2012, 08:22 AM

Thanks for the explanation though. (Do you have someone outside Croatia as a kind of "freight-forwarder" for you?)

uncle in munchen when im not in a hurry ;)

pelago

02-09-2012, 10:16 AM

BTW, if you guys didn't see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wbyyA9X4Qk

Thanks. I'm not sure I "get" the Plasma Active UI, but it's nice to see progress on this.

SD69

02-09-2012, 03:03 PM

Thanks. I'm not sure I "get" the Plasma Active UI, but it's nice to see progress on this.Me neither. But to be fair, AFAIK it started out as a general UI for larger screens and not with cellphones and small tablets specifically in mind.

strongm

02-09-2012, 03:37 PM

You won't get RHEL for free.

I thought CentOS was pretty much RHEL

benny1967

02-10-2012, 06:25 AM

Me neither. But to be fair, AFAIK it started out as a general UI for larger screens and not with cellphones and small tablets specifically in mind.

The opposite seems to be true. According to the project's homepage, "Plasma Active is intended for all types of tablets, smartphones and touch computing devices". Without knowing the exact history myself, I'd understand from this that the main focus for this type of UI is tablets.

The way it works (see also this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPkYyDiuGyc)) may be unusual at first glance, but I guess it makes some sense for a mobile device. - "Activities" correspond to situations and/or topics that you use the tablet in/for. You switch between activities with the wheel-like thing on the right, and each activity has its own desktop.

So I'd personally probably set up a "Couch Surfing" activity which I'd use 80% of the time. It'd include bookmarks of my favorite websites on the desktop, probably shortcuts to mail, instant messaging and a notes application... DLNA or something, if available, to connect to my TV.

A second activity would be "On The Train", where I'd have less internet bookmarks (probably only those that work reasonably well with the slow and unreliable Wifi I have on the train). Id have folders with music and videos, though, and maybe a PDF of alternative connections, just in case everything goes wrong and I'll have to make decisions offline.

A third activity might be an application I'm currently writing. It'll be full of documentation, various versions of the project and the usual boring stuff you need to get it running.

What seems to be a nice idea in the Plasma Active UI, too, is its recommendation system (panel you draw in from the left). They claim that the system learns things from my usage patterns and will recommend things like "you want to call Michael now" - because I usually call him between 11 and 12 when I'm at the office and I am at the office right now and the time's right. No idea how smart this will really be, but it sounds nice.

Knowing these things and watching the videos made it clear for me how the UI works and what the ideas behind it are. It's certainly more complex than usual touch UIs, which will almost certainly prevent it from becoming too popular in a market that is dominated by users who struggle to master their iPads. But for those who prefer power over simplicity, it'll be just fine.

Kangal

02-10-2012, 07:29 AM

Anybody have any news/progress about ARM-openSUSE ?!?!?

It is RPM+KDE...basically twin of MeeGo, siblin to Maemo, cousin to WebOS, distant relative to Android and in-laws to QNX.

SD69

02-10-2012, 11:02 AM

The opposite seems to be true. According to the project's homepage, "Plasma Active is intended for all types of tablets, smartphones and touch computing devices". Without knowing the exact history myself, I'd understand from this that the main focus for this type of UI is tablets.

C'mon benny you know we prefer technical accuracy to rhetoric and marketing speak here. From wikipedia:

"Its technology is a fundamental rewrite of several desktop interaction technologies included in previous KDE desktop environments for Unix-like systems, focusing on eye candy and special graphical effects. It most notably replaces the previous KDesktop shell, Kicker taskbar and SuperKaramba widget engine used in the K Desktop Environment 3 series with a unified workspace for KDE SC 4."

benny1967

02-10-2012, 11:06 AM

C'mon benny you know we prefer technical accuracy to rhetoric and marketing speak here. From wikipedia:

"Its technology is a fundamental rewrite of several desktop interaction technologies included in previous KDE desktop environments for Unix-like systems, focusing on eye candy and special graphical effects. It most notably replaces the previous KDesktop shell, Kicker taskbar and SuperKaramba widget engine used in the K Desktop Environment 3 series with a unified workspace for KDE SC 4."

... which you read as "it started it started out as a general UI for larger screens"?

MaddogG

02-10-2012, 11:10 AM

Stskeeps

02-10-2012, 11:11 AM

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/02/network.html

^^ Some news

SD69

02-10-2012, 03:12 PM

... which you read as "it started it started out as a general UI for larger screens"?No, which I read as being more informative than what you quoted from the website. Plus, I said AFAIK. Plus, what you quoted is what it purportedly is (present tense) intended for. Not how it started out.

Anyway, sorry if my earlier post offended you. I meant it to be light hearted, but maybe it came across wrong. :o

Here is the KDe announcement of Plasma Active:

http://kde.org/announcements/plasma-active-one/

"With release Three, we will begin implementing additional device form factors such as settop boxes or handhelds. Plasma is built with the philosophy of "highly componentized, re-usable and re-composable interfaces". This allows us to move from device type to device type...

Plasma Active One images have been tested and are supported on the WeTab, ViewSonic ViewPad, ExoPC tablets and the Lenovo Ideapad. More information on device compatibility can be found here. Plasma Active may install and work on other Intel-based devices as well. ARM device support is still in development. However, Plasma Active has been successfully installed and runs on Nokia N900 and other ARM devices.

So yes, I still believe it was on larger screen devices first, and then later partially ported to N900 (which didn't seem as complete as it is on Sparc). I'm still not sure how well it will work for 4 inch displays.

timoph

02-10-2012, 03:58 PM

So yes, I still believe it was on larger screen devices first, and then later partially ported to N900 (which didn't seem as complete as it is on Sparc). I'm still not sure how well it will work for 4 inch displays.

Not really ported, just installed on top of Mer on n9x0 without any modifications. It's pretty simple to try and see (YMMV). I haven't tried it in months so can't really comment about the diff.

But yes, that version of plasma is not designed for handsets. In any case the plasma stuff is open, highly configurable, modular, etc. so if one doesn't want to wait for someone to do the work for them one can start doing it now.

SD69

02-12-2012, 12:19 PM

There are some comments on openness here:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA1NjY

GrimyHR

02-12-2012, 12:30 PM

i still dont understand why didnt they go with allwinner a10 tablet as it has an open source kernel(not to mention same price and more powerfull hardware)...is somebody here connected to the development and could explain this idiotism
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/kernel_compile/

btw amlogic is 13$ a piece and allwinner is 7$, this makes the thing even more horrible, hope that this developers stop with endorsing this closed gpl violating piece of sh*t and switch to an actually open platform

MartinK

02-12-2012, 01:15 PM

Well, they mention that if everything goes well with this one, they want to also provide more powerful hardware in of the blogposts.

GrimyHR

02-12-2012, 01:30 PM

Well, they mention that if everything goes well with this one, they want to also provide more powerful hardware in of the blogposts.
dont care, untill they stop supporting this kind of gpl violating closed source manufacturers im not stoping with valid criticism...no one can justify their platform choice, at least no one who supports FOSS

GrimyHR

02-12-2012, 01:33 PM

more info for the choice they logicaly should have made
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/
main part being:
Unsurprisingly, this CPU has been chosen as the first CPU for an EOMA-68 CPU module. The critical decisive factor however was the immediate support of Allwinner's Board of Directors for releasing full GPL Source Code, to help the RHT Initiative to foster better relations and closer ties with Free Software Developers.

mrsellout

02-16-2012, 05:22 PM

The latest blog announces that the:
Spark pre-order registration is open!
Spark tablet pre-order registration is now open on the Make Play Live website (http://www.makeplaylive.com).

This is a huge and exciting step forward for the project as it starts to bring our logistics together.

By registering now you will help us gauge initial demand so we can serve that demand appropriately. When order processing open, you will receive an email with the order link and a priority order code which will jump your order to the front of the line.

We will also have a little gift waiting for you in the Make Play Live store. :)

Over the next two months we will be unveiling more and more about Make Play Live on the website. Fun things like the Spark logo and branding will be unveiled; but important information will also start to appear, such as how you can get involved as an app developer, how to join our logistics network on the retail side and further details on our long term roadmap. I'll of course keep you all in the loop here on my blog as things move forward.

Head on over to Make Play Live to register your interest now and help us spread the word around the 'net and amongst your friends. Together we can make Spark a terrific success and show the world how great an open device experience can be.

GrimyHR

02-16-2012, 05:26 PM

You'll also be supporting the mission of making open devices by helping us understand initial demand.

and part of your money will go to a manufacturer that violates gpl... :p
what a joke

MaddogG

02-16-2012, 05:49 PM

Spark pre-order registration is open!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/181/813/1726009-shut_up_and_take_my_money_super.jpg?1317708806

GrimyHR

02-17-2012, 04:59 AM

tried to conntact developers with email address provided on their site, the mail is unable to be delivered from multiple tried services...lol, what a great support straight from the start :p

Kangal

02-17-2012, 08:22 AM

I'll take it...but expect a Zenithink C71 in the mail

SD69

02-18-2012, 10:20 AM

Anybody hear anything about auraslate?

http://www.auraslate.com/page2.html

GrimyHR

02-18-2012, 12:38 PM

Anybody hear anything about auraslate?

http://www.auraslate.com/page2.html

a) Android? if so not interesting at all
b) specs? a bit vague about hardware platform or i just couldnt(not that i tried too much...) find it

btw since the cpu i a9 800-1000MHz i gues that the cpu is the same gpl violating and too expensive piece of crap as in this zenithink...

pycage

02-18-2012, 12:50 PM

Hopefully the Spark will ignite a whole new range of open hardware for opensource projects. 8)
The auraslate could become a second one. They came too late for the first Spark tablet, though.

SD69

02-18-2012, 01:19 PM

Hopefully the Spark will ignite a whole new range of open hardware for opensource projects. 8)
The auraslate could become a second one. They came too late for the first Spark tablet, though.The Spark has the most buzz but this thing is already available for purchase (with source code). And Spark has already said they don't have the full source code.

My concern is there is no warranty, no refunds. Looks to part of viewpad 7 type device family. If so, standard cpu w/ source is better than the AmLogic (?) on Spark. There is more info here:

http://www.auraslate.com/page8.html

I'm just concerned about the legitimacy of this thing.

tso

02-18-2012, 01:44 PM

The impression i get from the auraslate is that yes they have source code. But said code is not freely redistributable. Note how one need to pay for a CD with the source on it. Basically, they have managed to negotiate a deal where the source for the drivers are licensed on a individual basis. You can't take the source on the CD and make a working firmware image that you can put online as far as i can tell. So there is no way for a community to put up a git server and cooperate on improving the driver quality. At best one can pass patches around, but i am not even sure if that is allowed. Hell it may even be that if anyone that has looked at the source goes on to make a free version for inclusion into the kernel proper, one risk the kind of lawsuit we observed when SCO claimed IBM had used UNIX code in Linux. Looking at the source may well taint the person from ever working on a related area of the kernel ever again, for fear of unconsciously using something seen and so getting sued. As such, the reverse engineered Mali driver, or no driver at all, may be better than the Auraslate drivers. I am not a lawyer tho.

kureyon

02-18-2012, 01:47 PM

You won't get RHEL errrrrm, fedora? for free without support. I tried two years ago. The same goes for SLES OPENSuse?The free and enterprise versions of these are completely different beasts. If you think they are the same then you're obviously not in the market for the enterprise versions.

and Oracle Fedora again?No, it is a blatant ripoff of RHEL.

GrimyHR

02-18-2012, 01:50 PM

Hopefully the Spark will ignite a whole new range of open hardware for opensource projects. 8)
The auraslate could become a second one. They came too late for the first Spark tablet, though.

spark DOES NOT HAVE OPEN HARDWARE PLATFORM
they are buying their devices from a manufacturer that violates GPL even thou they had an cheaper, more powerfull and open platform as a possible choice
do not misinform people please

if your post does not imply that spark is open then i apologise :P

pycage

02-18-2012, 02:19 PM

The Spark is as open as it can possibly get nowadays. But maybe we are going to see some really open devices in the future. The Maemo devices (all from 770 to N9) aren't fully open either.

SD69

02-18-2012, 02:24 PM

The impression i get from the auraslate is that yes they have source code. But said code is not freely redistributable. Note how one need to pay for a CD with the source on it. Basically, they have managed to negotiate a deal where the source for the drivers are licensed on a individual basis. I wouldn't read too much into there being a separate CD for the source code for a relatively small amount that arguably doesn't violate GPL. But the licensing of the source code is a concern...

Hell it may even be that if anyone that has looked at the source goes on to make a free version for inclusion into the kernel proper, one risk the kind of lawsuit we observed when SCO claimed IBM had used UNIX code in Linux. Looking at the source may well taint the person from ever working on a related area of the kernel ever again, for fear of unconsciously using something seen and so getting sued. As such, the reverse engineered Mali driver, or no driver at all, may be better than the Auraslate drivers. I am not a lawyer tho.Having access to the source code is a relevant fact, but it doesn't prevent you from working on a related area of the kernel if there is also a GPL version of that area of the kernel.

balisingh

02-18-2012, 02:54 PM

with what i have amassed so far, i can say that sure you could have an open source tablet, but to make it usable becomes hard because of open source. even finding hardware with open drivers becomes hard. no one wants to give open drivers because they dont want to reveal secrets of the hardware. the company that develops the software always get an interest in it and thus dont want to release it open source.
In short nothing is ever fully open source.

Stskeeps

02-18-2012, 03:12 PM

GrimyHR

02-18-2012, 03:31 PM

Spark has a working and open source amlogic upstream kernel on it, with touchscreen and so on working. Manufacturer might be violating GPL, but it doesn't mean the Spark with Plasma Active + the amlogic kernel would.

Feel free to buy a Zenithink straight from manufacturer and sue them for GPL compliance. Or from one of the importers who you'll buy from directly most likely, who isn't likely to give a rats *** about GPL and will stare at you blankly when you ask them for source..

What's this more open and cheaper alternative you're speaking of?
are they or are they not buying a device that violates GPL? it does not matter much in what state they are selling it to us after that as part of our money goes to a manufacturer that violates GPL and there for we are supporting it, although not directly

they had a much more open option(plus cheaper, plus more powerfull) that i have already presented here and you can not deny this fact
more open and cheaper is allwinner a10 soc(soc is priced at 7$, amlogic is 13$, tablets go for 100-120$ retail, cheapest zenithink i found is 125$)
dont know how you managed to miss my ranting about this on the last few pages :p

GrimyHR

02-18-2012, 04:02 PM

This coment i found might explain some things a bit better than me:

"Allwinner chips are some of the few you cannot lock the boot loader from being replaced or downloaded out the device. There are no efuses. Only way to prevent firmware replacement on a Allwinner is use a external rom chip. Problem is the device will still fully boot from USB with what ever is on the USB even if you use the rom chip option. Running third party is alway a option on a Allwinner chip. They cannot be bricked and they cannot be fully locked down. They are more open than most x86 desktop motherboards.

Yes you can always back up the contained firmware from these. Due to design also alway restore that to the device as well.

Allwinner the company behind the A10 is working on getting the kernel sorted so it can be upstreamed.*

So this is a balancing act. You get a A10 you might not get the firmware source from the company that made it but you can replace the firmware with your own."

*kernel is sorted and available already...

Kangal

02-18-2012, 11:36 PM

Stskeeps

02-19-2012, 04:03 AM

are they or are they not buying a device that violates GPL? it does not matter much in what state they are selling it to us after that as part of our money goes to a manufacturer that violates GPL and there for we are supporting it, although not directly

they had a much more open option(plus cheaper, plus more powerfull) that i have already presented here and you can not deny this fact
more open and cheaper is allwinner a10 soc(soc is priced at 7$, amlogic is 13$, tablets go for 100-120$ retail, cheapest zenithink i found is 125$)
dont know how you managed to miss my ranting about this on the last few pages :p

Again, I'm not in any way representing Spark. Spark's delivered with an image and kernel that's not GPL violating. The markup goes to open source communities, see http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2012/02/spark-answers.html?showComment=1328285201712#c7755173221 624518884

We're getting down to specifics here. But reasons why you wouldn't take allwinner:

1) Tablets with allwinner has exact same problem as zenithink, there has only been leaks of drivers for the tablets, not any official releases. Most efforts take the approach of using the released allwinner sources from allwinner directly.

2) Allwinner does not provide downloadable GLES drivers and other support like amlogic does on http://openlinux.amlogic.com/

3) Allwinner devices require a Windows(!) closed source flasher to flash the devices, http://elinux.org/Hack_A10_devices

In the end, let it be up to yourself to choose if you want one or not - here's a working piece of hardware, with open kernel (though not created by manufacturer) and working and usable open platform, in which the profits go to a open community who hopes to in the future to produce better devices in which they can get out of the hands of those non-compliant device makers.

Just sometimes I wish GNU people would look realistically at the world -- while I'm a big supporter of open source myself, the behaviour of some parts of the open source community reminds me a little too much of the the Butlerian Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad) from the Dune series..

Open source developers need hardware to develop on as well and create greater things using and the embedded world is far from perfect yet.

GrimyHR

02-19-2012, 05:10 AM

I wonder which is the better budget SoC: The Allwinner A10 or MediaTech MT6575.

If both are at 512MB RAM and 2,000mAh battery...how would you guys compare them in terms of performance and battery life?

A10 vs 6575
1.5GHz(max) - 1GHz (max)
Solo A8 - Solo A9
55nm - (65nm ?)
Mali400 (undervolted and inferior driver) - (SGX540 ?)
$10 - $13 (prices for both drop when ordering in bulk)

6575 has only 720p playback...at least that is the info on various sites....
btw gpu is sgx531 crap, at least by these specs:
http://www.etotalk.com/lenovo-a750-3g-wcdma-android-23-dual-sim-mt6575-40wvga_p2869.html

GrimyHR

02-19-2012, 05:17 AM

btw is that zenithink crap at least unbrickable?

GrimyHR

02-19-2012, 05:31 AM

benny1967

02-19-2012, 06:51 AM

Just sometimes I wish GNU people would look realistically at the world -- while I'm a big supporter of open source myself, the behaviour of some parts of the open source community reminds me a little too much of the the Butlerian Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad) from the Dune series.

Oh pleeeze don't make this a Free Software vs. Open Source battleground (which it isn't). I consider myself what you'd probably call a "GNU person". I make a clear distinction between them (the open source pragmatics) an us (the free software ideologists), and I certainly wouldn't consider myself a "part of the open source community".

But: I'm certain that all this has nothing to do whith GrimyHR's campaign against the Spark. It's just one single person having a bad hair month, not "the GNU people" not looking "realistically at the world".

Having said that:
I don't accept the world! (http://www.reddit.com/tb/psz19) - but I'll buy the Spark!:)

GrimyHR

02-19-2012, 07:45 AM

Oh pleeeze don't make this a Free Software vs. Open Source battleground (which it isn't). I consider myself what you'd probably call a "GNU person". I make a clear distinction between them (the open source pragmatics) an us (the free software ideologists), and I certainly wouldn't consider myself a "part of the open source community".

But: I'm certain that all this has nothing to do whith GrimyHR's campaign against the Spark. It's just one single person having a bad hair month, not "the GNU people" not looking "realistically at the world".

Having said that:
I don't accept the world! (http://www.reddit.com/tb/psz19) - but I'll buy the Spark!:)
not a bad hair day, but just disappointed by their poor choice when it could have been much better, i really want something similar to this badly to at least partially replace my n900, but as this is just barely more powerful than n900 im just sad and annoyed :(

Estel

02-28-2012, 07:24 PM

GrimyHR, if we're talking about annoyance, I'm annoyed that you keep to spam this thread with useless whining about "alternative", without commenting on meritocratic arguments by Stskeeps:

1) Tablets with allwinner has exact same problem as zenithink, there has only been leaks of drivers for the tablets, not any official releases. Most efforts take the approach of using the released allwinner sources from allwinner directly.

2) Allwinner does not provide downloadable GLES drivers and other support like amlogic does on http://openlinux.amlogic.com/

3) Allwinner devices require a Windows(!) closed source flasher to flash the devices, http://elinux.org/Hack_A10_devices

I would really like to see proper technical comment on this, as otherwise, all You've written so far is just useless hoax + negative campaign against people that.actually *do* something, instead of sitting still and splitting post after post, with same content.

/Estel

GrimyHR

02-29-2012, 05:07 AM

actually i have given an example of an allwinner a10 based tablet that is sold by manufacturer as an gpl compliant device (ainol novo 7 advanced)
so the people who are buying it are not endorsing gpl violating manufacturers like with buying this tablet(even thou it will not arive as a gpl violator to the end user, the gpl violating bastard of a manufacturer still gets his money and everyone who buys this endorses gpl violation, just not directly) plus its much faster and cheaper, supports up to 1gb of ddr3("spark" is 512MB ddr2 as that soc cant handle anything more) so i would like anyone who thinks I am wrong and they are right to justify their choice or i have every intention of continuing my rants :p

rhombus-tech has explained everything technical why this is the chinese SoC to choose so click on the sources i provided :p

P.S. even though I consider those things i mention above relevant and valid, the biggest grudge i have against it is that this device is not in any way better than n900, you get a bit more eam and you loose your keyboard, performance wise they are almost the same, and n900 is 3 years old tech...i want this...on another hardware...and until i get it i will b.i.t.c.h about it :p

Estel

02-29-2012, 04:17 PM

It still doesn't answer how someone could avoid showstoppers mentioned by Stskeeps (and in "our" case, they're real showstoppers). It doesn't matter how much better/faster/sexy is allwinner - it's just not an option, due to mentioned roadblocks.

As for Your other arguments, You've already stated them 4322 times :p While I agree with some "whining" about low amount of memory etc, I still don't see any reason why You're repeating it over and over. It won't make more people agree with your opinion. IMO, it only rises a chance, that more people will add You to ignore list.
---

Anyway, spark was mentioned today in Polish Radio Program 3 (public radio station, here in Poland) - I was really shocked! Whatever we may "have against" Spark, it's fair to mention, that they've received unbelievable media attention, for such a project.

This makes me even more sad, that GPL-violating manufacturer is in supply chain, but I can only hope, that it will open opportunities for more and more Open devices in future.

/Estel

GrimyHR

02-29-2012, 04:56 PM

i also hope that all this pomp will result with a better gnu/linux device with an actually fair price for what it offers, im just tired of waiting, just because i want an open and desktop like experience in my pocket does not mean that i should be satisfied with anything...

what are those showstopers and how come they dont exist for rhombus-tech? :S im not joking i actually dont see roadblocks you are mentioning so please explain

Estel

02-29-2012, 05:11 PM

If You're sure, that:

1) Tablets with allwinner has exact same problem as zenithink, there has only been leaks of drivers for the tablets, not any official releases. Most efforts take the approach of using the released allwinner sources from allwinner directly.

...isn't the case (to which I'm not fully convinced by Your arguments), there still remain:

2) Allwinner does not provide downloadable GLES drivers and other support like amlogic does on http://openlinux.amlogic.com/

3) Allwinner devices require a Windows(!) closed source flasher to flash the devices, http://elinux.org/Hack_A10_devices

It doesn't matter that it work with default implementation - without downloadable drivers and "other support", we can't implement this in Open OS of our choose. +, the windows closed source flasher is pure joke, sic.

Of course, I'm not hardware implementation expert, so I may be wrong in some/all statements.

/Estel

GrimyHR

02-29-2012, 05:28 PM

If You're sure, that:

...isn't the case (to which I'm not fully convinced by Your arguments), there still remain:

It doesn't matter that it work with default implementation - without downloadable drivers and "other support", we can't implement this in Open OS of our choose. +, the windows closed source flasher is pure joke, sic.

Of course, I'm not hardware implementation expert, so I may be wrong in some/all statements.

/Estel

mali 400 proprietary binary should be the same :S
and there is lima if not

what other support? is this a joke?

and for the first point ainol has released source for atleast novo7 advanced, so there is at least one device that is gpl compliant (althou i would like novo7 elf with gnu/linux, better resolution, 1gb ddr3)

rm42

04-30-2012, 11:23 AM

Sorry if I am off with this. I haven't been keeping up. But I just saw this on Linux Today:

http://aseigo.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/vivaldi-nearly-here.html

I came here to see if there was any talk about it but could not find it. So, is the Spark now called Vivialdi, or is it a different device? Is any one here buying it? I think I may be interested.

Edit:

Ah, OK, I found some info. First I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1N1_-RHvTY

As instructed I went here:

http://opentablets.org/

There I found the answer to the name question:

http://opentablets.org/page/index.html/_/news/the-spark-becomes-the-vivaldi-r14

In essence:
"due to some trademark issues, is now known as the Vivaldi

mrsellout

04-30-2012, 11:58 AM

They've also changed the device they're using from the C71 to the C71+:
(Taken from http://opentablets.org/ )
Perhaps more importantly, Aaron confirmed that the hardware will be the 1GB version of the C71 (what we have been calling the C71+). There are several other small differences between the earlier version of the C71 and the C71+ - the largest being the mainboard. On the C71, it is an AMLogic Meson board, which has had kernel source available for some time. On the C71+, it is the Meson3, for which the kernel source was released just a few days ago. For you early adopters, we are working hard to get you a working kernel for the C71+. (See this thread to keep up with progress.)
The other major difference we have seen is the choice of wifi module. Unfortunately, we don't have any further information on this yet.

rm42

04-30-2012, 12:22 PM

I wouldn't mind paying a bit of a premium for the sake of having a more open device. Especially one built with Qt and Linux at the core.

-Tyler-

04-30-2012, 12:49 PM

Plasma active on the top of MER wowww!! this gonna rock. it is shame the hardware is so bad and the price is high for that hardware.

benny1967

04-30-2012, 01:17 PM

Plasma active on the top of MER wowww!! this gonna rock. it is shame the hardware is so bad and the price is high for that hardware.

It's still the best and cheapest mer based tablet i can buy. :)

jflatt

04-30-2012, 01:38 PM

Plasma active on the top of MER wowww!! this gonna rock. it is shame the hardware is so bad and the price is high for that hardware.The price is not for the hardware alone, and since it is open source, you can import one from China and install it yourself if you didn't want to support the project

-Tyler-

04-30-2012, 02:34 PM

The price is not for the hardware alone, and since it is open source, you can import one from China and install it yourself if you didn't want to support the project

but i want to support the project. I still think the hardware is bad and is overpriced but i think that too of the N9 and still i have one. If i want a linux tablet device there is no other option, so i will bye it for sure even if the price was higher,

Estel

04-30-2012, 06:36 PM

wow, 1GB of RAM, finally? It's going more and more interesting everyday.

/Estel

GrimyHR

05-01-2012, 04:09 AM

morbid

05-01-2012, 04:26 AM

So they're still going with the WM-294 wifi board? Man, I'm tired of new products using the archaic 2.4ghz spectrum. I wish that range was never part of 802.11n as 2.4ghz is virtually useless where I live. I'm not sure of the cost difference, but the WL-6210-V4 looks much better. It has 2x2 MIMO for 300mbs (instead of 1x1 MIMO for 150mbs) and is dual band for support of 2.4ghz and 5ghz.

Kangal

05-01-2012, 09:36 AM

So they're still using the A10 SoC (1.5GHz Cortex A8 + Mali400-4core), but increased it from single-channel ddr2 512MB RAM to a dual-512MB ddr3 RAM.

That would definitely increase the overall performance, and give room for multitasking. I can see some "heavier" OS's like Ubuntu potentially working decently on it.

The only problems I can see is the limited nand capacity, poor wifi chip and unused space inside (put in a larger battery?). Well if it ships most of the pre-orders within 3 months at this rate....I can certainly see it as successful.
Especially if they decide on a version2 with something even more spacious/comfortable like 2GB RAM, 64GB NAND, and something like an OMAP4430.

Estel

05-01-2012, 12:59 PM

The only problems I can see is the limited nand capacity, poor wifi chip and unused space inside (put in a larger battery?).

Unused space inside isn't a problem, it's modder heaven. As for WiFi, I doubt that anything will change here, but as it's soldered to USB interface (sic!), one can - probably - easily de-solder it and put something else, or even solder normal port there.

Well, you can't satisfy everyone - for example, I would kick out this damn useless capacitive screen and replace it with decent resistive one, properly detecting pressure... I think that for "desktop" OS'es, unusable high detection zone (even using so-called ''capacitive styluses'') is going to be biggest problem. Try hitting this "small X" on goddamn capacitive...

/Estel

Kangal

05-02-2012, 05:11 AM

Unused space inside isn't a problem, it's modder heaven. As for WiFi, I doubt that anything will change here, but as it's soldered to USB interface (sic!), one can - probably - easily de-solder it and put something else, or even solder normal port there.

Well, you can't satisfy everyone - for example, I would kick out this damn useless capacitive screen and replace it with decent resistive one, properly detecting pressure... I think that for "desktop" OS'es, unusable high detection zone (even using so-called ''capacitive styluses'') is going to be biggest problem. Try hitting this "small X" on goddamn capacitive...

/Estel

That would be a problem for the inevitable Ubuntu port....not so for ActivePlasma or Customized KDE GUI. I commend them for going with Capacitive, to show the world what individuals can do when thay have plenty of beer money, time and boredom !!

GrimyHR

05-02-2012, 06:01 AM

Unused space inside isn't a problem, it's modder heaven. As for WiFi, I doubt that anything will change here, but as it's soldered to USB interface (sic!), one can - probably - easily de-solder it and put something else, or even solder normal port there.

Well, you can't satisfy everyone - for example, I would kick out this damn useless capacitive screen and replace it with decent resistive one, properly detecting pressure... I think that for "desktop" OS'es, unusable high detection zone (even using so-called ''capacitive styluses'') is going to be biggest problem. Try hitting this "small X" on goddamn capacitive...

/Estel
dont know if something like this would be useable:
http://www.priceangels.com/Smart-Wireless-Digital-Touch-Pen-for-Laptop-3-AG3--s42539.html

but i agree, they should have used a high quality resistive screen, this tablet is for "enthusiasts", and what if someone wants to put gentoo or some other distro on it, chinese tablets often use 2 point multitouch resistive screens so even the multitouch supporters wouldnt have anything to rant about

Estel

05-02-2012, 01:17 PM

I commend them for going with Capacitive, to show the world what individuals can do when thay have plenty of beer money, time and boredom !!

Hey, wasting money without any meritocratic reason is reserved for iPhone ;) We want things that actually works good, not shiny gadgets...

Although, I agree that it would be probably hard to find device with good performance parts + good price + resistive screen + (most important) available kernel.

So, I'm not complaining - I hope using existing, Chinese device is just first step, to have something fully working in good amount of time.

/Estel

stlpaul

05-02-2012, 10:53 PM

does this tablet have EC declaration of conformity?
glad they deceided for a better soc, much better gpu performance in this one(1400 compared to 400 on old one in quadrant 3d test) and this one supports and uses ddr3, finaly decent job from amlogic

I have a C71 and it has no EC/FCC/any other kind of official markings. It doesn't even have a brand name on the box. The tablet shown on the box isn't even the C71. It is totally chinese generic tablet style. :) Maybe KDE guys will make it all official for theirs, though...

stlpaul

05-02-2012, 11:27 PM

Unused space inside isn't a problem, it's modder heaven. As for WiFi, I doubt that anything will change here, but as it's soldered to USB interface (sic!), one can - probably - easily de-solder it and put something else, or even solder normal port there.

There are other forums with discussions about the wifi upgrade. For example one person's mod to add a laptop antenna:
http://www.exaflop.it/c71/wifi-mod/particolare-1.jpg

On my C71 the wifi performance is horrible. It is often "no signal" unless I'm within about 3 meters of my access point. Even then the speed is extremely slow.

Other problem is an apparent lack of internal shielding around the backside of the screen, the touchscreen actually detects touches from the back side of the case! Supposedly you can insert something such as paper between the screen and the motherboard to prevent this. The touchscreen is very flaky, especially when the device gets hot.

Screen picture quality is just OK. The viewing angles are really bad. If you look directly at the screen it's not bad. Games using accelerometer are difficult because you can't see the screen if it's tilted...

Front camera is basically useless. It is awful.

Battery life is not great (Maybe 2 hours of non-idle use, charging is not very fast). The device gets very hot if you play games or something intensive like that, too hot to hold sometimes. Zenithink has clocked the CPU to 800MHz max (despite claiming it as 1GHz) and supposedly there is no heat sink on it at all. Overclocking with custom kernels is of course possible, if you want more heat and less runtime. :)

BTW you can get a fake leather case with a hardware keyboard that fits C71 perfectly, and it's cheap:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130689353589
I have one and it is quite possibly the worst keyboard I've ever used in my life, but it is better than using an on-screen keyboard, in most cases. :)

Overall, I'd say it's just kind of "meh". I bought it for around USD$80 last year from Hong Kong. For that price I'm okay with it because I don't expect a miracle. I don't use it for anything serious, just a playground to experiment with Android and play games without needing to reboot my N900.

Estel

05-03-2012, 10:58 AM

They're using C71+ with different WiFi module - i hope that it's better, not worse ;)

As for build quality - thanks a lot for detailed info. Just keep in mind, that C71 (and C71+) is generic name for tablet with similar hardware, yet manufactured by countless factories in China. build quality (and "peripherals" like screen, case, etc) vary *a lot* between factories.

I'm not trying to defend Vivaldi here - I have no idea how their's build quality is looking. I can just hope, that they've chosen better one.

/Estel

GrimyHR

05-03-2012, 01:45 PM

I have a C71 and it has no EC/FCC/any other kind of official markings. It doesn't even have a brand name on the box. The tablet shown on the box isn't even the C71. It is totally chinese generic tablet style. :) Maybe KDE guys will make it all official for theirs, though...
if it wont have certificate i wont be able to import it, whats ironic is that my country isnt in the EU but demands a certificate that it can be imported in EU which is not needed in EU for personal use :D

tso

05-03-2012, 03:07 PM

Estel

05-03-2012, 03:26 PM

GrimyHR

05-04-2012, 05:25 AM

It's funny - here in Poland, CE is purely "declarative" certificate, i.e. producer can mark goods as CE without any "compliance tests", but marking something as CE mean that issuer held responsibility, if device turns out to be dangerous even if used properly, etc.

Are You sure it is so strict in Your country? BTW, can't You just get it as "private" gift? ;)
yes, it is a rule made by HAKOM(croatian agency for mobile communications) and they make the rules for importing mobile phones, computers, tablets and any other device with any kind of networking, even with CE i will still have to pay them 50$ for certification for our market(for personal use), for real certification i should pay 200$, and that is without import fees and taxes, gifts can be up to 50$ in value and croatian customs officers have become really rigorous when tablets are in question

stlpaul

05-04-2012, 05:04 PM

They're using C71+ with different WiFi module - i hope that it's better, not worse ;)

As for build quality - thanks a lot for detailed info. Just keep in mind, that C71 (and C71+) is generic name for tablet with similar hardware, yet manufactured by countless factories in China. build quality (and "peripherals" like screen, case, etc) vary *a lot* between factories.

I have specifically the Zenithink C71 "upad" revision 2m. (512M of RAM, 4G of NAND version). Visually it looks identical to spark/vivaldi photos (white reverse/red sides/black obverse). outside of the device is attractive and seems sturdy. Inside is where the mystery lies. :)

Estel

05-04-2012, 06:44 PM

AFAIK, they're using (now) version with 1GB RAM, but it doesn't matter - parts used by factory that produces it is everything, when it comes to materials/build quality.

Long time ago, I've messed with - for times they were introduced - revolutionary and cheap mp4 players based on Ramos design. Despite looking identical and having same hardware infrastructure, there were ones acting like total trash, and "almost" identical ones robust ans reliable (in Poland, Pentagram adapted them as Eon Cineo). Everything made from the same design!

@GrimyHR
Don't take it personally, but after reading it, I'm glad I don't live in Croatia :eek: And of course, they're opening every single overbroad parcel? Maybe someone can send it to You as damaged, with, I don't know, unsoldered battery (or any other thing, that render device unusable for random customs office's noob, but easy to fix)? Then, it would be suitable to enter <50$ area.

/Estel

PMaff

05-21-2012, 12:22 PM

AFAIK, they're using (now) version with 1GB RAM, but it doesn't matter - parts used by factory that produces it is everything, when it comes to materials/build quality.

...
/Estel

I see here:
http://shop.open-slx.com/product.php?id_product=19
that it costs 236,81EUR.

Does this mean it is on the market finally?
Sites like http://geizhals.at/de do not show it.

GrimyHR

05-21-2012, 03:12 PM

I see here:
http://shop.open-slx.com/product.php?id_product=19
that it costs 236,81EUR.

Does this mean it is on the market finally?
Sites like http://geizhals.at/de do not show it.
what now? where are those 200€ that it was told it would cost? where did that extra 40€ come from?

Kangal

05-22-2012, 12:27 AM

It has it listed as Amlogic 8726-M.
I'm guessing this is the same as the AML 8726 MX:
http://tabletrepublic.com/forum/latest-tablet-news/amlogic-aml8726-mx-latest-dual-core-1568.html
http://bbs.1pad.cn/thread-45666-1-1.html

Which is a 40nm dual-core Cortex A9 clocked at 1GHz, but can be overclocked upto 1.5GHz....pretty much on-par with the Tegra2, but weaker than the TI 4430/Exynos.
And it comes with a halved Mali 400. So that its 2-core instead of 4 but it can still (just) push out 1080p.

I used to think it was based on the Allwinner A10 (which is documented and opensource); a 1.5GHz Cortex A8 (built on 50nm) with a Mali-400 (4-core).

So have they upgraded the SoC as well as the RAM?
At those specs, barebones Linux would behave smoothly...but it still is overpriced, should be $200 and not $300 as listed. And maybe a better TFT-LCD screen 1024x600 instead of WVGA, Wifi N, 8GB SSD so that the OS doesn't need trimming.

Estel

05-22-2012, 05:48 AM

what now? where are those 200€ that it was told it would cost? where did that extra 40€ come from?

Those infos are wrong and outdated. Internal storage is 8GB already, and 1GB of RAM is confirmed thing, not 512 MB as listed on this site. +, it's not available to purchase yet.

For all intents and purposes, please use only...
http://opentablets.org/
...as a source of informations regarding Vivaldi.

/Estel

PMaff

05-30-2012, 04:43 AM

what now? where are those 200€ that it was told it would cost? where did that extra 40€ come from?

If it is 8GB instead of 4GB then the extra 40EUR are ok.
Heck, even for 4GB the 240 would be ok, if I can buy a Linux
tablet instead of the usual Android/Apple stuff. ;-)

sulu

05-30-2012, 05:10 AM

Heck, even for 4GB the 240 would be ok, if I can buy a Linux
tablet instead of the usual Android/Apple stuff. ;-)How much "Linux" the OS on the Vivaldi will be remains to be seen.
The main problem of the Vivaldi is that you can't just install your own operating system since the device is not completely run by FLOSS because to compile the FLOSS mali graphics driver [1][2] you need the Driver Development Kit (DDK) which is only available under the (apparently) proprietary ARM commercial license.
I've searched for the license text but couldn't find it anywhere. Does somebody know where to obtain it or have a copy of it to share or tell us what's written in it?

Similar restrictions seem to apply to virtually any ARM device on the market (e.g. including Raspberry PI) and for me that's a mayor show stopper.

[1] http://www.malideveloper.com/developer-resources/drivers/open-source-mali-gpus-linux-kernel-device-drivers.php
[2] http://www.malideveloper.com/developer-resources/drivers/open-source-mali-gpus-linux-exadri2-and-x11-display-drivers.php

GrimyHR

05-30-2012, 05:36 AM

If it is 8GB instead of 4GB then the extra 40EUR are ok.
Heck, even for 4GB the 240 would be ok, if I can buy a Linux
tablet instead of the usual Android/Apple stuff. ;-)
lol, 4gb sd card is worth around 5€ and the original price is extreme even on 200€(without free shipping) since this tablet originally costs 100€ with free shipping included
if this tablet ever comes out and really goes anywhere(that means strong active community and constant development) ill buy the original version(120$ one with android), flash their linux image on it and donate 25-50$ to the team as that is a more reasonable amount