Is everybody dumber than me? [Archive] - maemo.org

SamAdam

08-14-2007, 10:36 PM

And just for the record, fully 49.999999% of the people you meet are below average! (Some days, it seems like lots more than that, though!)

You, my good man, obviously do not understand statistics! 49% of people are below the median. The average can be any value in the set, from the highest to the lowest, depending on the conditions of the set:

100 students, 1 student gets a 100% on his test, 99 other students get a 0%. Average is 1%, 99% are below average. :cool:

gsagers

08-14-2007, 11:36 PM

Yeah, yeah, I know it's the median - but it sure seems like half the people I meet on a given day are below average!

And to return to topic, I am dumber than ArnimS when it comes to porting.

torx

08-15-2007, 07:29 AM

We do lack active developers on the maemo platform.

michaelalanjones

08-15-2007, 09:04 AM

We do lack active developers on the maemo platform.

That's because there is no incentive. I work 40-50 hours a week on my regular job (as a 'real' developer) and I also help my wife with her business about 20 hours a week. Both of these activities have incentives. I'm also talking to a company in NY about telecommuting 30 hours a week, in the evenings, from 6:00PM to midnight, just to make a few extra bucks.

If I could make any money writing apps for the IT, I would. Q: How many professional applications have been written/(not ported) for the IT? (Don't include the unsupported bundle-ware thrown together by Nokia.) A: One. How successful was it? 0%? I won't mention the name of it, but what product was actually created specifically for the IT, with the intent of making money?

People always say they would love to have an app that does this or that, or they would like an app ported from a completely different platform, but these things take time and time is money. Hey, I would love a web browser that I could dial into work with, that would run my Java Net-Op client. Heck, I would be happy to even have a usable Java environment for the IT. I wish someone would write a good, integrated Outlook-style PDA for the IT, that synced flawlessly with Outlook or Entourage, so that I could get rid of my Franklin-Covey day planner. I'm still carrying a stack of paper around.

Sorry, I am just trying to make a point here, not start a firestorm.

konttori

08-15-2007, 09:32 AM

I agree that the lack of incentive is a sorry thing. Maybe that will change in teh future, but the devie will have to spread at least ten fold until any software business is really viable for the device (excluding the 200 euro gps mappers, which may break even ).

zerojay

08-15-2007, 09:48 AM

...time and time is money.

It's pretty clear that money is all you seem to care about, not about giving back to the community and so on... and that's fine. There are plenty of people in open source that do it just because they want to help other people, they want to give back, and put something out that's free and open.

If those aren't enough incentive for you, then I wouldn't want you developing for the internet tablets anyways because it means we'd just get half-assed work.

paulh

08-15-2007, 09:56 AM

lancewex

08-15-2007, 11:10 AM

Is everybody dumber than me?

Probably not EVERYbody. But some do have better grammar.
;)

rickh

08-15-2007, 11:17 AM

I don't know if many anyone makes a living from it, but the Palm platform appears to have some success with commercial software (or so it seems to me).

I've wondered if it was because various websites (such as www.palmgear.com) provide a ready-made marketplace. Plus, some prices are low enough to be very tempting (e.g. you might pay $6 for an memo pad replacement with encryption).

There is a lot of free software too, but I've found that I'm happy to pay for what I want.
The ready-made marketplace is in interesting point. When I was using a Zaurus, I frequented handango.com and was able to find some good, commercial apps that I gladly purchased.

There are currently two apps that I would pay good money ($100+ USD): Something like Textmaker and a good, flexible database program.

At one point I actually contacted Softmaker to see if they would be willing to port Textmaker to the N800, and the answer was no - albeit understandable, considering their other mobile linux offering was based on QT3.

R.
==

michaelalanjones

08-15-2007, 11:24 AM

If those aren't enough incentive for you, then I wouldn't want you developing for the internet tablets anyways because it means we'd just get half-assed work.

You don't know anything about me. One thing that I can guarantee though is that I will never come here again. And you can ESAD.

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 11:47 AM

If those aren't enough incentive for you, then I wouldn't want you developing for the internet tablets anyways because it means we'd just get half-assed work.

Speak for yourself, commie leecher.

Texrat

08-15-2007, 11:49 AM

That's because there is no incentive.

I'll quibble with that. To some, just being part of a highly-demanded, successful project is incentive enough. Consider the Linux developer community at large-- a lot of coding going on with no financial reward!

Heck, if I had the time, I'd rewire my brain from vb.net mode to a maemo-supported development platform and code all sorts of things for pure pleasure.

So to me the question is why isn't maemo enjoying the same level of developer activity that other Linux efforts do? I tend to think the tablets just haven't reached critical mass yet. But thank God for people like Arnim, fanoush and all the other guys whose names escape me at the moment. They are anything but dumb. ;)

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 11:49 AM

The ready-made marketplace is in interesting point. When I was using a Zaurus, I frequented handango.com and was able to find some good, commercial apps that I gladly purchased.

There are currently two apps that I would pay good money ($100+ USD): Something like Textmaker and a good, flexible database program.

Seconded, although 100+ seems a bit over the top: Textmaker goes for a lot less.

At one point I actually contacted Softmaker to see if they would be willing to port Textmaker to the N800, and the answer was no - albeit understandable, considering their other mobile linux offering was based on QT3.

I knew I wasn't alone!

Texrat

08-15-2007, 11:52 AM

I knew I wasn't alone!

If nothing else, you'll always have those voices in your head. :D

Modulok

08-15-2007, 12:13 PM

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 12:45 PM

I'll quibble with that. To some, just being part of a highly-demanded, successful project is incentive enough. Consider the Linux developer community at large-- a lot of coding going on with no financial reward!

Heck, if I had the time, I'd rewire my brain from vb.net mode to a maemo-supported development platform and code all sorts of things for pure pleasure.

So to me the question is why isn't maemo enjoying the same level of developer activity that other Linux efforts do? I tend to think the tablets just haven't reached critical mass yet. But thank God for people like Arnim, fanoush and all the other guys whose names escape me at the moment. They are anything but dumb. ;)

Michaelandjones is entitled to choose his own incentive, and criticizing him for choosing an incentive different from yours (spoken in a general sense) is both pointless and -- to stay on topic for the thread -- dumb.

Whether the tablet reaches critical mass (whatever that may be) or not, doesn't change the fact that there are differences between free and commercial software, from the user's point of view. The simple fact that there still isn't a decent wordprocessor for the tablet, despite numerous requests and even demands, should light a little bulb.

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 12:50 PM

The reason I will not develop software for the ITs is that I cannot develop for a Linux distro like Maemo. The rise and fall of this distro is controlled by closed software and hardware. Why should I use my free time for developing software which will run as long as Nokia wants to. Its just a matter of my philosophic viewpoint :).

Scratchbox is installed and I also have compiled some software but since I know that maemo is a trimmed distro my motivation has reached level 0.

That is actually an interesting and -- IMHO -- quite valid point against developing for the IT. Nokia has broken backwards compatibility once completely already, and once partially, not to mention breaking hardware compatibility as well. In all those occasions Nokia simply expected developers to do most of their work again -- period.

If nothing else, this shows that indeed the community is not in control of Nokia's tablets and, if I were an OSS developer, this alone might make me run for the OpenMoko hills.

rickh

08-15-2007, 12:52 PM

Seconded, although 100+ seems a bit over the top: Textmaker goes for a lot less.

True, I was just saying what I would be willing to pay.

If software is good/stable and meets my needs, I'm quite happy to pay for it.

R.
==

tabletrat

08-15-2007, 01:58 PM

Ald

08-15-2007, 02:10 PM

I'd love to program for the N800, but there are two reasons why I currently don't:

I don't know GTK (yet)
I don't / won't have a development system

I don't have a computer at home, and my job will be ending soon, so my sole development platform will be going away. I'll have lots of free time soon, though, so I may take a look at on-device development (which I seem to recall seeing posted about somewhere) and learning GTK.

tabletrat

08-15-2007, 02:14 PM

Heck, if I had the time, I'd rewire my brain from vb.net mode to a maemo-supported development platform and code all sorts of things for pure pleasure.

I program for pleasure (which is disturbing as I do it for a living).

So to me the question is why isn't maemo enjoying the same level of developer activity that other Linux efforts do?

Well, they aren't very well established. I got mine as it was really cheap and someone mentioned it on some mac group. I have a couple of tabletPCs, and a few PDAs but for walking around the tablets are too big and the PDAs are a bit limited.
The problem is though that the internet tablet is still an idea that has yet to really take off.

It is also a complete pain to set the environment up, compared to other platforms.

Texrat

08-15-2007, 02:19 PM

Nokia has already acknowledged the mistake in the 770 to N800 transition and declared that it won't be repeated.

tabletrat

08-15-2007, 02:24 PM

Nokia has already acknowledged the mistake in the 770 to N800 transition and declared that it won't be repeated.

As I am new here, what were those mistakes? (i just have a 770)

ArnimS

08-15-2007, 02:28 PM

Sorry for the stupid thread title. It's been fun reading the comments though. :)

I suppose the maemo environment could be more complete, but it's not the purpose of the tablet to run *any* linux apps - the idea is to do proper ports to hildon.

That being said, time is limited, and a number of people would rather have a kludgy raw build than nothing. So if anybody is running into problems with missing dependencies and libraries, please post them here or in #maemo. I have built a bunch of libraries and tools that i can share, but webspace is limited.

Texrat

08-15-2007, 02:37 PM

As I am new here, what were those mistakes? (i just have a 770)

Failure to implement adequate hardware abstraction, mainly.

Texrat

08-15-2007, 02:39 PM

Michaelandjones is entitled to choose his own incentive, and criticizing him for choosing an incentive different from yours (spoken in a general sense) is both pointless and -- to stay on topic for the thread -- dumb.

You completely mischaracterized what I posted and I find that offensive.

I'd appreciate it much, Karel, if you would not do that. It's totally uncalled for.

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 03:34 PM

You completely mischaracterized what I posted and I find that offensive.

I'd appreciate it much, Karel, if you would not do that. It's totally uncalled for.

And you obviously misread what I wrote; I specifically mentioned there was no shoe and yet you complain it fits...

penguinbait

08-15-2007, 03:45 PM

You completely mischaracterized what I posted and I find that offensive.

I'd appreciate it much, Karel, if you would not do that. It's totally uncalled for.

What is that I hear??

A pot, calling a kettle black!!

As I write this old saying, I start to wonder if it is politcally correct? Not sure, but it sure seems to fit where I am using it!!

Texrat

08-15-2007, 04:17 PM

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 04:32 PM

Penguin, I have never done that to you. In fact, ironically, it has been the other way around. So, no, it doesn't fit at all. But I was hoping we were past that. (sigh)

Karel, surely you jest. I won't make a federal case of it, but you specifically quoted my post and then proceeded to act as if I had criticized the other gentleman's post, which I most assuredly did not. Granted, you say you are generalizing, but then why state that after quoting me?

Because that was more convenient.
Because you appeared to hop on the support-bandwagon for zerojay's stupid remark.
Because I'm not accustomed to using "one's".
Because I'm an Evil Person.
Take your pick.

A little intellectual honesty goes a long way.

Nah. Don't think so. Just look at Al Gore...

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 04:33 PM

What is that I hear??

A pot, calling a kettle black!!

As I write this old saying, I start to wonder if it is politcally correct? Not sure, but it sure seems to fit where I am using it!!

I resent being called a kettle!
In fact, I'm renowned for not even retaining water.

:D

Texrat

08-15-2007, 04:42 PM

Because that was more convenient.
Because you appeared to hop on the support-bandwagon for zerojay's stupid remark.
Because I'm not accustomed to using "one's".
Because I'm an Evil Person.
Take your pick.

I hopped on no bandwagon. Zerojay has his post, and I have mine, and never the twain did meet. And you were saying about misunderstanding...?

trevarthan

08-15-2007, 04:42 PM

I program for pleasure (which is disturbing as I do it for a living).

Same here. I suppose the selfish part of me starts a project for personal reasons like "Man, I wish I could do X". But then I carry on with it just because it's good fun.

I don't mind having some proprietary pieces in the OS. My app for example, Kagu, could easily be made to run on any OS with a touch screen. It wouldn't even have to be Linux. So I'm not really wasting my time if maemo goes away.

What I don't appreciate is being kept out of the Chat, Voice, and Mail APIs. Where's our IRC module for the Chat app? Where's our hooks to make pidgin the default Chat client? And Sylpheed the default Mail client? Why does Canola continue to undermine my work by making new completely proprietary releases?

Canola is a huge de-motivator for me.

And what is with Nokia's refusal to make OSS applications the default? Why are they compelled to reinvent the wheel? I just don't understand their game plan.

Texrat

08-15-2007, 04:50 PM

And what is with Nokia's refusal to make OSS applications the default? Why are they compelled to reinvent the wheel? I just don't understand their game plan.

It wasn't exactly a refusal. Many decisions were made for the sake of expediency, especially in areas where there were no OSS options (such as highly specific hardware support). Nokia is very committed to expanding the openness, but this is no light task. Hopefully many developers will be pleased with what's on the way.

Ald

08-15-2007, 04:52 PM

Where's our IRC module for the Chat app?

Sorry, this is the only one that I can address, and I may be completely off the mark here, but shouldn't it be (isn't it?) as simple as creating another Telepathy plugin? Or even porting Idle, the current IRC module for Telepathy? Or are there additional extensions Nokia added to Telepathy that would make this not a viable option?

Karel Jansens

08-15-2007, 04:55 PM

I hopped on no bandwagon. Zerojay has his post, and I have mine, and never the twain did meet. And you were saying about misunderstanding...?

I was not calling you pointless or -- Bog forbid -- dumb. Like yours, my remark was generic, but I admit that the use of "yours" instead of "one's", despite the clarification in brackets (which I actually put there to prevent the conundrum we're now in), was ill-chosen.

In my defense, since I allready labeled Zerojay a "commie leecher", calling him "dumb" in a subsequent post would have been an upward reclassification.

So, again: you're not stupid, my remark was not addressed at you and I am an idiot.

That's the best I've got.

trevarthan

08-15-2007, 04:56 PM

It wasn't exactly a refusal. Many decisions were made for the sake of expediency, especially in areas where there were no OSS options (such as highly specific hardware support). Nokia is very committed to expanding the openness, but this is no light task. Hopefully many developers will be pleased with what's on the way.

Yeah, I'm not talking about the hardware drivers. You'll get no gripes from me about that. I'm specifically talking about the default applications on the device.

trevarthan

08-15-2007, 04:57 PM

Sorry, this is the only one that I can address, and I may be completely off the mark here, but shouldn't it be (isn't it?) as simple as creating another Telepathy plugin? Or even porting Idle, the current IRC module for Telepathy? Or are there additional extensions Nokia added to Telepathy that would make this not a viable option?

I have no idea. Where's the source code for the current plugins? Maybe we can go from there.

Texrat

08-15-2007, 05:15 PM

Yeah, I'm not talking about the hardware drivers. You'll get no gripes from me about that. I'm specifically talking about the default applications on the device.

Understood. Even there, decisions were made based on expediency by and large. I won't say that was the sole motivation, or make excuses for it, but it is what it is. The good news is that work is being done to at least partially rectify that situation. Stay tuned. ;)

Ald

08-15-2007, 05:19 PM

Where's the source code for the current plugins?

Woo! Threadjack! The components are mentioned at Freedesktop.org (http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Components), with links to the various plugins and their source listed as the first items. I believe Maemo only runs Gabble at the moment, though I believe the rtcomm beta implements Telepathy-SofiaSIP.

penguinbait

08-15-2007, 05:23 PM

Texrat, I hope you are really not believing what you are saying. I do think you have done exactly to me what you accuse Karl of. You say that it is I who have done this. Obviously your right, you always are??

You say in your PM to me that I slammed you, seriously I stated nothing but what I believe to be is the truth. While I believe that you do exactly what you accuse Karl of. You however have an opinion that I am picking on you, because I once refered to you as male genitalia.

If you thought by offering me a stand for my n800, I would somehow change who I am or what annoys me, you would be wrong. I want Nokia to step up, if you want to send me a stand I can use it, and I offered to pay for it, if not no big deal.

Because I look back at my track record and see that, for the most part, I have worked tirelessly for tablet owners and in many cases fought my own company over how they (you) have been treated. I don't ask for any reward for providing faceplates or covers or advice, but I sure don't think the insults and general nastiness aimed my way by you and a tiny minority are deserved.

Ah Yes, my insults and nastiness, calling you a pot, how f-ing rude... I am sorry for persecuting you

I will ask you again: if you have a problem with me, don't address me. Place me on ignore. I will gladly accord you the same level of respect. I'd rather get along, but if that's too much to ask, then using the Ignore feature or just leaving one another's posts alone and behaving like adults may be the only solution..

Perhaps if you had ignored my pot/kettle remark which has hurt you so desperately, I would not be responding to you.

Its amazing I dont seem to get into these stupid arguments with anyone but you, yet you seem to be getting into arguments with more than just me. Logic dictates you are the source of the problem, or perhaps we are all just picking on you.

:cool:

Texrat

08-15-2007, 05:28 PM

Holy cow.

Seriously, please take advantage of the ignore feature. I am.

coolass

08-15-2007, 05:31 PM

:cool: I may not have been posting in this forum but I have been watching since it started. I was an avid zaurus user and poster but like Z's forum their is too much BI*#&ING by grown A## adults that makes people shy away from forums and code for themselves . It's okay to have gripes but a little appreciation is all the incentive some people need instead of the whining

tabletrat

08-15-2007, 05:50 PM

I suppose the selfish part of me starts a project for personal reasons like "Man, I wish I could do X". But then I carry on with it just because it's good fun.

I don't see that as selfish. It is a personal machine, and obviously you are going to want to do your own thing. There is no point trying to do something you have no interest in, unless you are doing it for someone else as a favour (or for profit)

I don't mind having some proprietary pieces in the OS. My app for example, Kagu, could easily be made to run on any OS with a touch screen. It wouldn't even have to be Linux. So I'm not really wasting my time if maemo goes away.

I have always found that except in really specific circumstances, most software is like that. I have applications that I have written on all platforms, in different languages. I have an application (Lines/LinesFG/Yagol) that I started as a sort of test of a new platform that I always write when going to a new platform. So far I have redone it in C, C++, Obj-C, Obj-C++, C# and Java on the PocketPC, Palm, Mac & TabletPC and am now set up for doing it on the 770!

What I don't appreciate is being kept out of the Chat, Voice, and Mail APIs. Where's our IRC module for the Chat app? Where's our hooks to make pidgin the default Chat client? And Sylpheed the default Mail client?

Well, I am new to the platform but did wonder about that. With the presence menu on the left, I wanted to add newsgroups which I was currently using claws mail for, but there didn't seem a way. That seemed odd.

Why does Canola continue to undermine my work by making new completely proprietary releases?
Canola is a huge de-motivator for me.

Now I look at your application, I can see that it would be! Is Canola anything to do with Nokia?

And what is with Nokia's refusal to make OSS applications the default? Why are they compelled to reinvent the wheel? I just don't understand their game plan.

Well, I don't really know how nokia do things, as it is a new area for me other than a few java things on my N73, but maybe they don't actually *have* a game plan?!

zerojay

08-15-2007, 10:51 PM

I
In my defense, since I allready labeled Zerojay a "commie leecher", calling him "dumb" in a subsequent post would have been an upward reclassification.

Just because I don't make my (upstream) contributions known here doesn't mean that I'm a commie leecher, but I'll file that one away in my scrapbook as that was probably one of the more original things I've been called. Congrats.

You can call what I said stupid if you please. That's fine. Someone that's motivated and passionate about something they are programming and working on are *always* going to put out something that's higher quality than someone that's just a paid code monkey and doesn't really care. Some of the more cynical of you might say or think that the default applications on the N800 (e-mail, rss) are shining examples of that (something I would disagree with).

iball

08-15-2007, 11:03 PM

I'm a commie leecher dumb***** myself and I have no shame in admitting that.
The only thing I ever compiled for the N800 was the Einstein NewtonOS emulator.
And since I don't have a valid NewtonOS ROM I couldn't even run it!

And ArnimS's mad rapid compiling/porting binge to the N770/N800 make me look even dumber.
Stupid botched-up Scratchbox environment on my VMware Maemo image...

bac522

08-15-2007, 11:12 PM

?

?

?

That would be VERY SAD

.

.

.

Hey ArnimS, I guess you did prove everyone is dumber then you ;)

trevarthan

08-15-2007, 11:35 PM

Now I look at your application, I can see that it would be! Is Canola anything to do with Nokia?

The way it was explained to me is that Canola is written by an R&D lab that is "sponsored" by Nokia for tax write-off reasons. Something like that anyway.

I don't think anyone but Canola's management knows what they hope to gain by making it closed source. While it's a nice app, it doesn't really innovate (so I doubt there is anything patentable). And I doubt it has much value as a paid app considering that it's being given away for free. And it doesn't provide any functionality that you can't get elsewhere. It's basically just a prettier version of the default media player + the nokia streaming UPnP app rolled into one. So if they're giving it away, why not make it free so that I wouldn't have had to write Kagu in the first place? eh?

Again, I don't get it. And I'll continue *****ing about it (and working on Kagu) until someone gives me a straight answer.

Frankly, I think someone needs to sit Canola's management down and explain open source to them. It sounds like they're operating out of corporate habit. Wake up. Canola was the perfect potential open source app that never became open source. And for no good reason. Shame.

trevarthan

08-15-2007, 11:45 PM

I'm a commie leecher dumb***** myself and I have no shame in admitting that.

Wait... aren't you more of a commie if you're stupid enough (trevarthan raises his hand) to contribute? Commies work for free. Capitalists get paid. Isn't that how it works?

I've always thought that Open Source is the only way that communism ever actually works in practice. The funny thing is that I'm not really sure *why* it works, and I'm a contributing developer.

I find it difficult to analyze what motivates me to code for free. I tell my friends that it's "like art". But I don't really believe that most of the time. I think it's a combination of selfishness "I need X feature", the desire to help others (i.e. "give back"), and the desire for recognition. Maybe that *is* art?

zerojay

08-15-2007, 11:46 PM

The way it was explained to me is that Canola is written by an R&D lab that is "sponsored" by Nokia for tax write-off reasons. Something like that anyway.

I don't think anyone but Canola's management knows what they hope to gain by making it closed source. While it's a nice app, it doesn't really innovate (so I doubt there is anything patentable). And I doubt it has much value as a paid app considering that it's being given away for free. And it doesn't provide any functionality that you can't get elsewhere. It's basically just a prettier version of the default media player + the nokia streaming UPnP app rolled into one. So if they're giving it away, why not make it free so that I wouldn't have had to write Kagu in the first place? eh?

Again, I don't get it. And I'll continue *****ing about it (and working on Kagu) until someone gives me a straight answer.

Frankly, I think someone needs to sit Canola's management down and explain open source to them. It sounds like they're operating out of corporate habit. Wake up. Canola was the perfect potential open source app that never became open source. And for no good reason. Shame.

I suppose you didn't notice the announcement that Canola's going full open source after it's done being rewritten in Python?

Karel Jansens

08-16-2007, 06:36 AM

Just to clarify (in general, as usual): "Commie leecher" does not refer to people who contribute to something for free; it does, however, refer to those who think everyone should be compelled to contribute for free. Which is, if you think about it, basically highway robbery.

Like taxes. <dons flameproof suit and ducks>

trevarthan

08-16-2007, 08:00 AM

I suppose you didn't notice the announcement that Canola's going full open source after it's done being rewritten in Python?

Nope. Got a link? They've been saying they want to make it open source for a while, but it never happens.

Texrat

08-16-2007, 08:08 AM

And ArnimS's mad rapid compiling/porting binge to the N770/N800 make me look even dumber.

And there's the irony to the thread. If there's anyone who deserves accolades for his accomplishments (and obvious abilities) here it's Arnim. I am going to have to come up with something for him as a token reward...

Oh, and for the record: no one needs to explain open source to Marcello, or any of the maemo folks. They know. And a little detective work would reveal that to anyone involved in Linux coding.

YoDude

08-16-2007, 08:27 AM

?
Is everybody dumber than me?
?

?

That would be VERY SAD

.

.

.

I am :(

I stopped trying to live up to others expectations... no one is disappointed that way. :p

***

An active developer can create a nice revenue stream even from a small community such as ours. In my experience, you need a bit of up front sweat capital or equity, a web page with an active donations link, and the support of a forum such as this.
It will get the ball rolling and create incentive. If you do only a few things extremely well, word of mouth (posts) from happy users will take over from there.

Unfortunately, often is the case where a good idea is taken only 80 - 90% of the way and then orphaned....

There are quite a few "open source" orphans roaming around out there.

Texrat

08-16-2007, 08:47 AM

Very good points, YoDude.

ArnimS

08-16-2007, 09:20 AM

Sorry for the silly thread title. :)

The truth of the matter is most of the stuff i've 'ported' is more-or-less a straight compile, I'm going to say something that the devs here already now.

I really just want to show tablet users who don't consider themselves "real programmers" how easy and fun it is to find a linux app they want / like, do a little research, build dependencies, tweak a couple things, and host a .deb of it.

This sort of activity should not be confused with the effort, dedication and talent it takes to write a real app (kagu/trevarthan) or do a real hildon port (Nethack, AD-770) or a real optimization (ssvb/mplayer).

Cheers!

Texrat

08-16-2007, 10:48 AM

Arnim, it is your tireless efforts, regardless of scope, along with perpetual cheer that earn you an easy spot in the Tablet Coder's Hall of Fame. ;)

tabletrat

08-16-2007, 01:42 PM

Someone that's motivated and passionate about something they are programming and working on are *always* going to put out something that's higher quality than someone that's just a paid code monkey and doesn't really care.

I don't think you can really generalise that way. Someone who writes good code will write good code, and someone that does badly will write badly regardless of passion. Someone who is not paid is going to be more likely to complete something they want to make than something they don't, but if they are paid they don't have that problem.

People writing banking software, or satelite control code are very rarely passionate about it, but they have very strong methodologies and testing strategies that ensure that their code will be of a very high quality.

It won't generally be the best application, but it will fulfil the specs and be reliable.

twaelti

08-16-2007, 04:56 PM

I really just want to show tablet users who don't consider themselves "real programmers" how easy and fun it is to find a linux app they want / like, do a little research, build dependencies, tweak a couple things, and host a .deb of it.
Your work is much appreciated - and envied :)
In fact, for me, the HUGE effort to get up and running with development on the N800 is an absolute showstopper for me - and probably a big hindrance for many other devs, too.

Compare the current OS2007 development environments to the stuff available for Palm or Windows Mobile. It takes literally minutes to build a small GUI app using HB++ (Palm example) or the Compact Framework 2.0 with Visual Studio 2005 (Windows Mobile). Anybody can get up and running with a simple application in a matter of moments, and the IDE helps to concentrate on the specific functional content of the app, without much thought about the environment.

I admit that I don't have the smallest clue about Linux development, but still - the first steps were extremely painful: My experience is limited to download the Xubuntu VMware with the installed scratchbox and firing up the emulator. But what now? What language to develop in? What IDE to use? (and yes, I read the tutorials on maemo.org)

I suppose the easiest thing for me would be to start in Python - I will try to install/update the VMware machine with Python 2.5.
OTOH, I don't want "choice" right now - I simply need an easy way to start developping small to medium apps for the N800, to further my enthusiasm for the machine :-)

(don't want to sound harsh, just a bit frustrated about that (too) steep learning curve :D There are family fathers with young kids and few sparetime that would like to develop for the N800, without first investing weeks in getting up and running ...hehe)

tabletrat

08-16-2007, 05:13 PM

I don't think anyone but Canola's management knows what they hope to gain by making it closed source. While it's a nice app, it doesn't really innovate (so I doubt there is anything patentable).
And I doubt it has much value as a paid app considering that it's being given away for free. And it doesn't provide any functionality that you can't get elsewhere.

Maybe they are planning on selling it on another platform. Although I can't imagine what platform they could sell it on. I have tried it and it doesn't really seem to work for me (it doesn't play my songs, but doesn't say why, doesn't find my iPhoto or iTunes libraries either)

So if they're giving it away, why not make it free so that I wouldn't have had to write Kagu in the first place? eh?

So did you start Kagu before or after Canola?

I guess I am coming from a different place though, in that I don't see why something has to necessarily be open source. Sure it is one way of doing something but by keeping it closed gives them control over its development. Either way it is their thing.

tabletrat

08-16-2007, 05:37 PM

Compare the current OS2007 development environments to the stuff available for Palm or Windows Mobile. It takes literally minutes to build a small GUI app using HB++ (Palm example) or the Compact Framework 2.0 with Visual Studio 2005 (Windows Mobile). Anybody can get up and running with a simple application in a matter of moments, and the IDE helps to concentrate on the specific functional content of the app, without much thought about the environment.

I had the same problem. It is a bit of an uphill struggle (although setting up for 2007 is easier than setting up for 2006). However, it is doable.

I suppose the easiest thing for me would be to start in Python - I will try to install/update the VMware machine with Python 2.5.
(don't want to sound harsh, just a bit frustrated about that (too) steep learning curve :D There are family fathers with young kids and few sparetime that would like to develop for the N800, without first investing weeks in getting up and running ...hehe)

One of the things microsoft gets right (and I don't think there is that much!), is making the setup for writing software on their machines trivially easy. Ok you still need to be able to write stuff, but it means there is more software made, and thus more good software. Also has the secondary effect of making less technical software that doesn't require you to have knowledge of linux to use - one of the most obvious things I have noticed since using the n770 is a lot of software expects you to understand linux, or have technical knowledge in the subject.

fpp

08-16-2007, 06:02 PM

Your work is much appreciated - and envied :)
In fact, for me, the HUGE effort to get up and running with development on the N800 is an absolute showstopper for me - and probably a big hindrance for many other devs, too.
(...)
I admit that I don't have the smallest clue about Linux development, but still - the first steps were extremely painful: My experience is limited to download the Xubuntu VMware with the installed scratchbox and firing up the emulator. But what now? What language to develop in? What IDE to use? (and yes, I read the tutorials on maemo.org)
I suppose the easiest thing for me would be to start in Python - I will try to install/update the VMware machine with Python 2.5.

A true Python advocate would (probably convincingly) argue that the above is true no matter the person and no matter the platform involved. Considering your situation (similar to mine in some ways, except that I already had a background in the language) and the Maemo platform, it's a no-brainer that takes little arguing, because :

- there has been an almost-official (via INdT) Python package for the tablets since the days of ITOS2005 on the 770, and it has been maintained through all versions of OS and hardware (which, as some have noted, is quite an exception :-),

- contrary to many embedded python distributions it is not crippled but quite comprehensive, with several useful add-ons and "bindings" to the Hildon GUI API,

- it even gives you the choice between TWO GUI frameworks to build you apps with : pyGTK for classic, widget-based stuff, or PyGame for freestyle, console-like interfaces. You could even say there are three, because for simple apps with an even shorter learning curve there is also Gustavo Barbieri's Eagle, an abstraction layer over pyGTK that offers a simple and concise API.

- you don't even have to install a specific development environment (VMWare or other) to get started : you can just use your existing setup (like Win XP) with the corresponding Python/pyGTK/pyGame packages and code away. When you transfer your files over to the tablet they should run right away, with the GTK widgets automatically "Hildonized". Specific adjustments will mostly be related to the screen size.

The main drawback is the startup time of the python+pyGTK (or python+pygame) combo on small machines like the tablets. But of it's (just about) bearable on the 770, it should be OK on the N800...