iPod Touch (threads merged) [Archive] - maemo.org

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 01:59 PM

I assume this thread is about the iPod Touch (http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/ipod-touch-gets-official/) which has a large touchscreen, b/g wifi and Safari browser? Definately competition for the Nokia Internet Tablets - for the casual user I can see Apple getting a lot of sales, Nokia less so.

This device will definately prove to be a tough "competitor" for the Nokia Tablets - I know they're not direct competitors, but in terms of the core competencies alone the Apple product will appeal far more to casual buyers than the Nokia tablets ever will. Web surfing, video and audio playback are the activites the Nokia Tablets have aspired to, but due to lacklustre UI and application design the Tablets will prove no match for the iPod Touch. :(

It's not quite game over, but Nokia have almost lost the battle for the "internet tablet". Nokia need to focus on other core competencies - email, rss and dare I say it - PDA. The iPod has always had a native Calendar and Contacts app for christs sakes...

bcvthul

09-05-2007, 02:00 PM

I says too: goodbye "Nokia N800/770", hello " iPod Touch!"

Riddler

09-05-2007, 02:07 PM

Certainly not over, however when Apple do eventually open up the Mac OS X "lite" platform to developers Nokia have a big problem. It'll either do two things for the Internet Tablet:

1. Force Nokia to invest some serious R&D money in it and stop treating it as a hobby/experiment.

OR

2. Kill it.

Hope it's the first option.

SamAdam

09-05-2007, 02:11 PM

TabulaRasa

09-05-2007, 02:11 PM

Does the iPod touch have a microphone or support bluetooth keyboard? In a way, this new device will call attention to the tablet category. The N800 was always a niche device -- but a way for Nokia to get their feet wet. The touch doesn't spell the demise for Nokia, but it will probably lead to a boom in tablet sales all around.

It does sound like the demise for Palm, though.

Also, I called the Starbucks thing the other day... They have been installing flat panels with "now playing" information in all of the local Starbucks. Assumed it was some deal with Starbucks entertainment. I'm never right about stuff, but this time I was. :-P

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 02:13 PM

A good transcript with pictures of the launch as it happens here (http://www.whatmobile.net/forumvb/showthread.php?p=209283#post209283).

iPod Touch will be available in 8GB and 16GB capacities, $299 and $399 respectively, worldwide within a month. YouTube supported in the same way it is on the iPhone. Full integration with the iPhone music store.

Nokia have everything to compete with this - Ovi for the music store, the platform and the browser, they just don't have the design kudos or the marketing chutzpa (OPK the Finnish chairman of Nokia isn't even on the same planet as Jobs when it comes to announcing products - it's sometimes hard to tell if OPK is even alive).

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 02:18 PM

Does the iPod touch have a microphone or support bluetooth keyboard?

It appears there is no Bluetooth support whatsoever, which seems a bit odd as it rules out A2DP and keyboard support. Maybe next year.

Traecer

09-05-2007, 02:24 PM

Well, basically this appears to be the iPhone with the GSM radio removed (and an upgraded memory chip in the 16GB version). This is all well and good for them, though I suspect the price overlap between the Touch and Classic will cause Classic sales to lag, especially since the Touch's screen is bigger.

I admit the casual user, one who is especially into buying off iTunes, will love this thing (assuming they can afford it). I have to say after trying the N800's built-in Rhapsody client and 30-day trial subscription, it's actually quite slick, and if someone were into the Rhapsody model (pay $15/month for unlimited streaming, pay for each song you actually download) I think the N800 makes a better player. It's obviously better than the Zune, anyway.

But as people keep saying, the N800 isn't just a music player. It's also not just a web browser. It's got Skype. The Flash plugin is slow and somewhat lame, but it works, and you can go straight to YouTube. And there are 3rd party apps. I can connect to any IM service I want with Pidgin. My calendar syncs directly to Google Calendar. There's several ways to listen to podcasts w/o desktop intervention (it's not clear whether the iPod Touch can handle this). And I can build my own apps, which is incredibly geeky of me, but there you go.

Sure, for the casual US user, the iPod Touch may be the way to go. (How much market penetration does the N800 really have in the US anyway?) But the N800 still has way more capability and potential, especially if Apple continues to close off 3rd party development.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 02:35 PM

Sure, for the casual US user, the iPod Touch may be the way to go. (How much market penetration does the N800 really have in the US anyway?) But the N800 still has way more capability and potential, especially if Apple continues to close off 3rd party development.

True, the N800 offers a lot more than the iPod but the potential WORLDWIDE market that was available to Nokia, within which to sell a device offering media playing capabilities and internet browsing, has all but disappeared with the launch of the iPod Touch.

Nokia now need to focus on those customers who want more than just browsing functionality, those customers who want effectively a laptop replacement, or even as a smartphone companion (PDA etc.). Nokia have to rethink their approach and start embracing other non-internet based functionality as they've just lost access to the internet browsing only market (sewn up by the iPod Touch, I predict). If Nokia persist with their blinkered attitude towards the Internet Tablets, they may as well give up - if people want to browse the internet with a portable device, they'll get an iPod Touch.

Nokia must begin offering more compelling functionality and design... it's quite breathtaking to see how quickly Apple have been able to eat Nokias lunch.

Traecer

09-05-2007, 02:35 PM

thank you for saying more eloquently what I was trying to say. Hackers flock to what people own, and I see all the hackers going to this especially because it uses the iPhone toolchain they have already developed.

I have to stop you there: and just where is this "iPhone toolchain" of which you speak? Where are these "third-party iPhone applications" just springing up everywhere from garden-variety code hackers? I hope you're not referring to the various hacks that have appeared? Yeah, the N800 has problems like any device, but there is an official, freely available (open source even) development kit, and several different ways to write applications for it. The iPhone/iPod Touch has...Safari web apps. That you can't even install on the device itself; they have to be hosted. Or stuffed into a bookmarklet. OK, whatever.

In truth, I know why Apple has refused to open an SDK for the iPhone. They say it's for stability, but in reality it's so people won't write viruses for it. That's fine if they want to do that, but that doesn't make me want to use it as my carryaround Internet device.

Traecer

09-05-2007, 02:44 PM

True, the N800 offers a lot more than the iPod but the potential WORLDWIDE market that was available to Nokia, within which to sell a device offering media playing capabilities and internet browsing, has all but disappeared with the launch of the iPod Touch.

Nokia now need to focus on those customers who want more than just browsing functionality, those customers who want effectively a laptop replacement. Nokia have to rethink their approach and start embracing other non-internet based functionality as they've just lost access to the internet browsing only market (sewn up by the iPod Touch, I predict). If Nokia persist with their blinkered attitude towards the Internet Tablets, they may as well give up - if people want to browse the internet with a portable device, they'll get an iPod Touch.

Nokia must begin offering compelling functionality and design... it's quite breathtaking to see how quickly Apple have been able to eat Nokias lunch.

I completely agree with you, and not just with the advent of the iPod Touch: the whole Nokia N-series' market is in danger of being eaten by Apple now. Which is rather sad; Nokia apparently can't seem to market well outside of Europe, and even then faces stiff competition (even without the iPhone). Nokia's design could use some work too; Symbian's interface is ugly in comparison to most UIs except Palm's, and though I like Maemo's interface overall, things like the Media Player and Image viewer inspire utter boredom.

zerojay

09-05-2007, 02:59 PM

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 03:00 PM

I am happy that I didn't buy the N800. iPod Touch or iPhone, they will most likely become *the* portable internet devices. The list of native apps is growing, installing them has become quite comfortable. And sooner or later somebody will even manage to put an alternative OS on them, just because it can be done.
I am happy, mobile internet's future has become a lot brighter today.

Apple also seem to have many of the internet websites in their pocket - every time there is a new app, hack or someone at Apple sneezes it gets covered by just about every news site and blog on the planet. The iPod Touch is front page on the BBC News site for crying out loud.

Compare and contrast that with Nokia, who barely marketed the N800 at all and any coverage they do get is mostly derisory. This is precisely why I think Apple now have the "internet browsing" market sewn up, they have the hardware, functionality and UI that everybody wants and they have no problem letting people know about it.

Nokia need to learn so many lessons, so very quickly. :(

DrMurko

09-05-2007, 03:02 PM

it all depends what you are looking for in a device.
I want a device which lets me browse the web, including having the ability to save files for later use. I don't think the Ipod touch can do this.
Furthermore, I like the ability to write stuff on the go, without having to haul a laptop with me.
And there is the email, of course.
For me, the NIT functions as a small laptop; versitalility is the key.
And yes; is also plays music and videos.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 03:07 PM

The one and only reason why this is making any waves at all is because it's Apple. That's it, that's all. I want an open internet future, not one filled with DRM that requires hacks to install stuff all the time. I want things less locked down. Why bother waiting for someone to put an alternative OS on it when you have something with an alternative OS already on it now? The only real reason to buy something from Apple is because you like their interfaces and GUIs, but if you're just going to install an alternative OS on it anyways...

I agree with you... but we're a tiny minority. And .wo is a prime example of people who yesterday might have bought a Nokia Internet Tablet, but tomorrow will now buy Apple.

The open-ness of the Nokia platform appeals to only a tiny number of people compared to those that will buy Apple - those that just want to play music and video with a bit of web browsing don't care about installing other apps or hacking with a shell.

The question is: can Nokia compete with Apple and engage the majority of potential customers in this "internet browsing" market, or should it accept it will only ever appeal to the Geek market? Is the Geek market large enough to sustain Nokia? Is this experiment doomed to failure now that Apple have taken the concept, lost the open nature but still rubbed Nokias face in it?

zerojay

09-05-2007, 03:14 PM

I don't think it's going to change much, to be honest with you. Every single time Apple announces something, everyone says "oh, the tablets are dead", but yet we're still here, alive and kicking, better than ever.

It's annoying enough to see the Apple news parroted everywhere on just about every site I go to... and everytime it happens, we have to suffer through it here. Ugh.

E-ville

09-05-2007, 03:15 PM

The n800 is now dead... wih the touch out there for less money and he superb interface there just is no compitition..

nokia had a good product, apple made it user freindly, sales will follow...

my prediction is th iphone and touch go the route of the SonyPSP.. here will be a huge hacking communuit bases on these devices... there already is a large community of hackers hackng the iphone.. nowbthey haveeven a bigger user base to write apps for etc..

Nokia had there chance..they failed, i still lke my n800 and use it every day.. Apps are going to start flooding the market for these devices, thats when that iphone hits my possesion and at that point il have very little use for the n800.

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 03:27 PM

So...the big Apple announcement today...

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/steve-jobs-live-apples-the-beat-goes-on-special-event/

"Review time: multi touch, widescreen iPhone display, Cover Flow, Wifi, Safari / YouTube... "We're going to offer it in two configurations, the first is 8GB, the second is 16GB of storage.

8GB is $299... the price for the 16GB is $399"

Jobs: "WiFi, as you may know, is faster than any 3G cellular network, so it's really fast." Zing!

Rebski

09-05-2007, 03:38 PM

I have always been perplexed by Nokia’s intentions with the IT. It is as if simply by calling it an Internet Tablet, supplying it with a browser and email and little else that it will act as a ‘golden arches’ to which consumers will flock.

Personally, I think Nokia’s big mistake was in assuming that internet access is so special that simply to have it was the be all and end all. Echoed on here by the ITT Forum mantra “Its an internet tablet, stupid.” To be thrown at anyone who has the temerity to question why the options to do so much more are not available.

Certainly Nokia have made little effort to develop the N800’s capability. From what I can gather, sales to date have been minimal and with the arrival of the iPod Touch, they can say goodbye to future sales too.

I wonder where this leaves development of the fabled N900? In the light of the competition will Nokia simply call it a day, with their experiment in this form factor having failed? On the other hand if they can rise to the challenge then we will have something very special to look forward to. Why am I not optimistic.

Texrat

09-05-2007, 03:43 PM

heavyt

09-05-2007, 03:56 PM

I wonder when Nokia will cut the price on the N800.
Apple has put them in a position were the N800 will collect dust on the selves if Nokia does not move fast!

Now we will see if Nokia is going to "put up or shut up" when it comes to the internet tablet . Whatever happens we as users/customers will be winners....let the games begin!!!

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 04:01 PM

Already covered...

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9523

zerojay

09-05-2007, 04:03 PM

I don't think the tablets are in the exact same space at the moment, nor do I think they are intended to be. I don't know why people keep kneejerking to comparisons that are only fractionally relevant.

I know. It's like with the whole iPhone thing. Everyone was saying "omg, I'm getting an iPhone" and "Nokia better watch out!" and "Nokia's going to die". I'm so tired of it, especially since the iPhone barely made a dent in anything.

ysss

09-05-2007, 04:07 PM

zerojay, tired of doing what? :)
reading their posts? just ignore it..
trying to convince them of your way of thinking? well good luck there..

namtastic

09-05-2007, 04:10 PM

"For me, the NIT functions as a small laptop; versitalility is the key."

Exactly. Here's how I look at it -- What would I miss if I swapped my N800 out for an iPod touch?

* Being able to VNC into my home computer
* Being able to cache-read RSS feeds on my subway ride
* Being able to sketch a quick drawing with the stylus
* Being able to casually read a PDF paper on the sofa
* Being able to Bluetooth-pair with my phone when open wi-fi isn't available (admittedly, the iPhone would solve a lot of that)

But seriously, you can't agree that these are mass-market features.

What the iPod touch does is cement the Internet Tablet to the Linux-fan and computer-hobbyist markets only. The Apple product design mantra of "do a few things clearly and extremely well -- even if limited" is a winner for the general public, and this means it will have the audience that companies and functionality-hackers will want to target.

E-ville makes exactly the right analogy: the Sony PSP is as closed as game hardware could be, yet it enjoys a tremendous hacker community putting all sorts of emulators and titles on it. Apple has never been as tough on hackers as Sony has been (see existing Apple TV and Linux-on-iPod hacks), of course, that could change -- but is unlikely and sets the tone as to what can happen on the platform. That, and Apple may add some of these "missing" abilities officially in later firmware updates which as we've seen happen pretty damn smoothly, and frequently (unlike IT updates).

zerojay

09-05-2007, 04:12 PM

zerojay, tired of doing what? :)
reading their posts? just ignore it..
trying to convince them of your way of thinking? well good luck there..

Oh, I know there's no way to convince them of that once they've gone over to the dark side. ;)

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 04:17 PM

I don't think the tablets are in the exact same space at the moment, nor do I think they are intended to be. I don't know why people keep kneejerking to comparisons that are only fractionally relevant.

I'm damn glad to see this, though. It can only help grow the multipurpose device markets.

It's not the exact same space, but it's pretty damned close and people that would have considered the N800 because "it's a media player and can browse the internet" now have, arguably, a far far better (and cheaper) choice (I bet the iPod Touch won't corrupt/destroy it's 16GB of built-in flash memory either!)

For those that want *more* than what the iPod Touch offers the Nokia Internet Tablets are still an option but I would wager that Apple will sell *millions* of iPod Touches and, since they offer pretty much the same functionality that Nokia has been offering for the last 9 months, you have to wonder where it went wrong for Nokia. Why is it that Apple get glowing reviews for a $400 audio/video player with web browser, while Nokia were accused of selling "a toy" with "no real purpose" which achieved the same thing? Obviously it's not all about hardware, but software and marketing too in which case it all comes down to overall execution, and Apple will out-execute most firms on the planet. Nokia's own in-fighting, ineptitude (even arrogance) hasn't helped matters - they still have a chance to salvage something, but not very much.

zerojay

09-05-2007, 04:19 PM

E-ville makes exactly the right analogy: the Sony PSP is as closed as game hardware could be, yet it enjoys a tremendous hacker community putting all sorts of emulators and titles on it. Apple has never been as tough on hackers as Sony has been (see existing Apple TV and Linux-on-iPod hacks), of course, that could change -- but is unlikely and sets the tone as to what can happen on the platform.

Actually, Sony's warm and kind to the homebrew community and have been since the days of the original Playstation. Stuff like NetYaroze and the PS2 Linux kit have always been supported by Sony. Hell, including direct support for Linux in the PS3 is proof of that. They know that people want to hack around and have fun on their machines and work on homebrew which is why they support it.

The reason why they are tough on the PSP is because, unlike the PS3, there isn't really a sandbox that the users can play in. If you are running homebrew, you are most likely running in kernel mode, which means you can brick your PSP if you run the wrong homebrew program. That's what Sony's main concern is. Containing piracy is also something they care a lot about, for obvious reasons. Because there's not really a way to separate the two on the PSP, they have to be covering everything just simply to protect their users and their licensees. Unfortunately homebrewers are lumped into it because there's no separation. Sony knows and is planning on fixing that... though it's entirely possible that it's too late for the original model. Perhaps with the new slim, we can have that separation and therefore they can allow homebrew.

Anyways... that's enough of a tangent.

Texrat

09-05-2007, 04:21 PM

"What the iPod touch does is cement the Internet Tablet to the Linux-fan and computer-hobbyist markets only.

Not necessarily. That depends on Nokia of course. Granted, early-adopters have every reason to be pessimistic, but if they only knew what I know... :D

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 04:23 PM

I know. It's like with the whole iPhone thing. Everyone was saying "omg, I'm getting an iPhone" and "Nokia better watch out!" and "Nokia's going to die". I'm so tired of it, especially since the iPhone barely made a dent in anything.

The iPhone might not have a made a dent because it's relatively expensive, locked to one service provider and limited to the USA.

The iPod Touch on the other hand is reasonably cheap (8GB/$299 and 16GB/$399) and, by the end of September, will be available in more or less every country on the planet (more countries than, for example, the Nokia N800!) :)

slider

09-05-2007, 04:24 PM

Not necessarily. That depends on Nokia of course. Granted, early-adopters have every reason to be pessimistic, but if they only knew what I know... :D

do share, plzzzzz.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 04:30 PM

Not necessarily. That depends on Nokia of course. Granted, early-adopters have every reason to be pessimistic, but if they only knew what I know... :D

To be honest, Nokia should quit keeping their future plans secret - it's not helping them by keeping secret stuff which will be exciting in 6 months time... between then and now, everyone will be buying iPod Touches, only the geek hardcore will stick with the N800 and we already own our devices!

I strongly suspect that N800 sales have now peaked and may tail off quite dramatically. :( Nokia need to become more open about what is coming in order to sustain momentum behind the N800 and the Maemo platform - keeping secrets isn't going to achieve that.

heavyt

09-05-2007, 04:30 PM

Not necessarily. That depends on Nokia of course. Granted, early-adopters have every reason to be pessimistic, but if they only knew what I know... :D

Like I said earlier, Nokia the time has come to dazzle us or step aside.

finite

09-05-2007, 04:35 PM

Actually, Sony's warm and kind to the homebrew community

ROFL!

But on topic, Nokia has really pissed me off with their IT ****ups, but Apple makes them look downright friendly by comparison. When Apple's SDK comes out, this will be a more serious competitor though.

thomasdawes

09-05-2007, 04:37 PM

Why does everyone talk about apple stealing market share from the N800? I've never viewed the ipod line of products to be that similar to the N800. Let's be realistic here, the N800 doesn't have the fan base or the hype as the ipod products.
The ipod has a lot of people purchasing as impulse buys. Seems to be that a lot of the people on this board did their homework prior to buying. There maybe some impulse buyers at the launch of the N800, but never to the extent of the ipods.

The people that purchased an N800 probably have an ipod type product and may even be lucky enough to have an iphone. My wife has the iphone, and she loves it, but it's simplistic in what it does. I don't visit any ipod forums to find out what I can do extra with it. It is set in stone what I can do, and after a couple of hours I am done. With the N800 I visit this site more than I wish to say, just to see what new items I could add to the nokia. I wish there was a way for me to help support the developers for this device, but until there is a base like handango for Palm, I don't know if that will ever be possible.

pieter_jh

09-05-2007, 04:52 PM

Which is rather sad; Nokia apparently can't seem to market well outside of Europe,
Which is rather sad; Nokia apparently can't seem to market well outside of Europe.

Now such a statement just cannot go unchallenged for its sheer demonstration of insularity. (Unless you think that 'Europe' is that big bit outside the US)

38 million symbian phones shipped from April to June 07. Nokia sold 100 million phones worldwide in q2 worldwide. Thats in 3 months fanboys. Compare that to Apple aiming to sell a paltry 10 million iphones in the first YEAR. Compare that to 40 million ipods sold EVER. We are talking different leagues here people.

BTW Europe is now only Nokias 4th biggest market, after China, India and the USA.

All Apple have really achieved with the iphone was to fragment the American market even further (with blackberry, win mobile, palm and apple slugging it out in the USA for 5% of the worlds population, Nokia are their symbian partners have been quietly wrapping up the rest of the world.)

TabulaRasa

09-05-2007, 04:53 PM

If the ipod touch had a built in mic and bluetooth so that you could tether it to a phone, I'd buy one. This thing will never be able to run skype. Now, make an iphone without the radio and you'd be talking. I bet they had to skirt around some of the features to appease AT&T.

Anyway, until then, I'll use my N800. Love affairs with technology are notoriously short. Yesterday's iPod is literally going into tomorrow's scrap heap. In a few years it will be the same with our N800s.

sapporobaby

09-05-2007, 04:54 PM

namtastic

09-05-2007, 05:29 PM

Why is it that Apple get glowing reviews for a $400 audio/video player with web browser, while Nokia were accused of selling "a toy" with "no real purpose" which achieved the same thing?

It's called iTunes, and the iTunes Store. An iPod is part of a system, and has an extremely simple workflow that allows even the novice to completely experience all of its (albeit limited) features. Point is, there are little to no unexplored corners, no features wasted and unused. Someone who has never heard of a codec can enjoy feature films, video podcasts and music with a very small learning curve.

To compare, the 770 (and subsequently the N800) was put out there in a let's-see-what-you-can-do-with-this mentality. That's perfect for the tinkerers and hobbyists, but its quite clear that most people are not hackers, computer engineers or programmers. Finding a clear purpose for a device is hard if someone isn't leading the way, especially when there *are* limitations, such as memory and processor-speed. Functions feel unnecessary or poorly-designed. The thing itself feels unfocused.

Promise a slick media experience with effortless synchronization and odds are you can deliver. Promise a complete laptop-like browsing experience in your pocket and odds are you can't.

In summary, it's better to do 50% of things to 100% satisfaction than 100% of things to 50% satisfaction. That's been the success of Apple these days, and why people will flock to an Apple solution -- because of the promise of a complete experience, even if it comes with incomplete functionality.

But incomplete to who? That's the point. We like the ITs because our requirements for features is large. But right now, we're the exception, and in many ways the ITs are ahead of the curve.

namtastic

09-05-2007, 05:33 PM

Not necessarily. That depends on Nokia of course. Granted, early-adopters have every reason to be pessimistic, but if they only knew what I know... :D

Hah, was just thinking about that -- this might be a great time for something to "accidentally" leak out of Nokia HQ, if they know what I mean...

adammelancon

09-05-2007, 05:50 PM

Hah, was just thinking about that -- this might be a great time for something to "accidentally" leak out of Nokia HQ, if they know what I mean...

No joke huh, I mean, I bought my N800 because I knew what it could and couldn't do, and it fit just right for me as a sysadmin, but it doesn't mean I have to stick with it.
If Nokia would be up front with it's plans for the N800, I would have a better time recommending it to other (non ubergeek) people. If they were up front, us geeks would stick with it for the long haul, and newcomers would be more apt to purchasing an N800 if they knew where it was going or what special plans were coming up around the bend.

Most geeks see something new and shiny and jump ship to purchase the "next best thing", but just think if we knew that our precious N800 can reinvent itself to become whatever the next big thing is. We would be more likely to stick around for a while and not say "ooh shiny" and jump ship.

Us N800 owners have already taken the plunge and purchased, so just continue to make us happy and let us know of the glorious things to come. The people who are on the fence about purchasing would probably purchase sooner and ride out the development cycles if they knew what this device can do right now, and what it will be capable of doing in the future.

Just my 2 cents.

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 06:35 PM

oops, heh, heh

guess people didn't post it in "Competitors", where i thought it belonged

Texrat

09-05-2007, 07:06 PM

It's not the exact same space, but it's pretty damned close and people that would have considered the N800 because "it's a media player and can browse the internet" now have, arguably, a far far better (and cheaper) choice (I bet the iPod Touch won't corrupt/destroy it's 16GB of built-in flash memory either!)

For those that want *more* than what the iPod Touch offers the Nokia Internet Tablets are still an option but I would wager that Apple will sell *millions* of iPod Touches and, since they offer pretty much the same functionality that Nokia has been offering for the last 9 months, you have to wonder where it went wrong for Nokia. Why is it that Apple get glowing reviews for a $400 audio/video player with web browser, while Nokia were accused of selling "a toy" with "no real purpose" which achieved the same thing? Obviously it's not all about hardware, but software and marketing too in which case it all comes down to overall execution, and Apple will out-execute most firms on the planet. Nokia's own in-fighting, ineptitude (even arrogance) hasn't helped matters - they still have a chance to salvage something, but not very much.

For one, I think it's too early to say what the quality of the Touch will be like. People bashed Nokia for not making RAZRs-- the RAZR has horrible hinge failure rates and ended up actually doing damage to Moto's bottom line (not for that reason though). People bashed Nokia for bad screens on the tablets-- now the iPhone is exhibiting the same problems. So what is to say that the iPod Touch will not have any defects?

For another, I'm still not convinced that anything has really "gone wrong" for Nokia. Granted, there remain disconnects between what some users demand and what the company supports, but even without anyone proving it to me directly I believe that continued tablet development demonstrates the 770 and N800 were "successful enough". Perfect? By no means! But the computerish attributes of the device have the potential of solving the vast majority of current gripes. The main thing that went wrong was in reverse logistics, and that is improving.

Finally, reviews were actually mixed for the N800. Many professional reviews (such as CNET's) were in fact lambasted by users, who ranked it higher. The majority of overall negative reviews I have seen were written by people who were apparently clueless as to the device's nature and potential. Of course, Nokia must take a large amount of blame there for awkward communications (at best).

What Apple out-executes on is HYPE. They have captured only a small segment of the vast consumer electronics market but carry on as if only they exist. Their loud and loyal fans echo the message. But Sony, Nintendo, Dell, HP and Microsoft might quibble a bit with the over-glorified image of Apple. And while the iPod was certainly a success (now losing share to competitors such as Sandisk), it remains to be seen what the future will bring for Apple. And Nokia as well. I think any predictions of the death of the largest cell phone manufacturer on the planet are a little exaggerated (yeah, yeah, hyperbolic :p).

Just wait. ;)

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 07:32 PM

I knew there were limitations with the 770 when I bought one, but it's even worse that I thought. I can't say I'm all that disappointed though.

Sitting here today with $350-$400 in my hand having experienced what Nokia can do and experienced what Apple can do, would I buy an N800?

For what I want (casual Internet browsing), heck no!

I'd buy the iPhone, hack it to use without the mobile part and wait for the software sim unlock. $349 from Apple for a "refurb", $399 new.

rkopper

09-05-2007, 07:48 PM

Launch day, and everyone is predicting NIT's untimely death. Can you pull up an xterm on a itouch, iphone or whatever isteve jobs unveils with his cult of mac? I bought a tmobile wing because I didn't want the shortcomings of the iphone (namely no third party apps). Same reason I bought an N800 - The hacker spirit. The Why? Because I can! .. and - can I play doom on it?? Same reason I installed slackware wayy back... Go play in your sandbox - the iphone and all the ieverythings are very nice for that. As for me I choose the command line... </end rant>

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 07:51 PM

Texrat, I totally agree the Touch is so far unproven (it was only announced 5 hours ago!) but chances are people will love it - the overwhelming reaction to the iPhone 2+ months hasn't shown up any major UI issues, and the Touch is really just an iPhone without the phone! :)

Dodgey screens and other hardware issues are possible, but I'd expect Apple to have learned something from the iPhone (just as Nokia learned the WSOD from the 770) and one would expect them to have corrected the screen problem (which in reality is minor in relation to how many iPhones were sold)...

I'm already seeing people on other forums plunking down $400 (or the UK equivalent) on 16GB Touch pre-orders... this is the kind of reaction that Apple generates without really trying, ordinary Joes salivating over a piece of tech - while it may be hype Apple are able to convert the hype into real, genuine sales. This is horribly frustrating, as I see the N800 as being a platform that outperforms the Touch however the packaging and marketing of the Touch beats Nokia hands down. People wonder why they need a N800 - they just don't "get it" - yet these same people put down $400 for a Touch without thinking twice. Yes, it's all about the marketing but the sugar coated Apple marketing is based on the devices and what they can do - the devices LOOK great (better than the N800) and the UI looks even better, this makes marketing EASY! People are drooling over the Jobs demo, nobody gives a toss when OPK "demos" a new device - he's boring and dull and singularly not well placed to build interest in a product (though I'm sure he's a thoroughly nice bloke!)

It's true that Apple only have a small percentage of the overall CE market, but if you narrow your focus to MP3 players you'll see that Apple own that market (ignoring Nokia and their phones). Apple are by far the largest player (at one point with 82%+ market share, not sure what it is today) - any MP3 is compared to the iPod and usually comes up short (some of the latest iRiver units do well though).

Small market share or not, the Apple Touch will outsell in a single day all Nokia Tablets (770+N800) ever sold. Apple won't kill Nokia, but the Touch will eat into N800 sales for sure.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 07:57 PM

Launch day, and everyone is predicting NIT's untimely death. Can you pull up an xterm on a itouch, iphone or whatever isteve jobs unveils with his cult of mac?

I'm not suggesting the Touch will kill the NIT, but what it will do it steal NIT sales... most people don't care for xterm on their media player, they just want a media player and a bit of web browsing on the side would be nice. Or maybe they want to browse the web, and listening to some audio would be nice. For many many people this is the common task for portable devices.

Few people want to hack a shell onto their device but fortunately for them there is the N800. For the rest, there is the Touch. The risk is that those people wanting to hack a shell may not prove sufficiently profitable or worth the effort for Nokia to continue in this market. I hope it is, but Nokia face an uphill struggle to grow beyond the geek market and compete with the Touch which is the most obvious competitor.

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 08:04 PM

I'm not suggesting the Touch will kill the NIT, but what it will do it steal NIT sales... most people don't care for xterm on their media player, they just want a media player and a bit of web browsing on the side would be nice. Or maybe they want to browse the web, and listening to some audio would be nice. For many many people this is the common task for portable devices.

Few people want to hack a shell onto their device but fortunately for them there is the N800. For the rest, there is the Touch. The risk is that those people wanting to hack a shell may not prove sufficiently profitable or worth the effort for Nokia to continue in this market. I hope it is, but Nokia face an uphill struggle to grow beyond the geek market and compete with the Touch which is the most obvious competitor.

Milhouse, you nailed it.

SD69

09-05-2007, 08:31 PM

oops, heh, heh

guess people didn't post it in "Competitors", where i thought it belongedor with a meaningful title

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 08:37 PM

They have captured only a small segment of the vast consumer electronics market but carry on as if only they exist.

Over 110m iPods sold to date according to Jobs in his speech today. Small in comparison to the overall CE market, but a very respectable number of high-margin audio devices sold by a company that used to flog computers! :)

Let's see what the company that currently flogs mobile phones can do in return - no more hints and secrets, time to reveal some tasty upcoming morsels! :D

Texrat

09-05-2007, 09:04 PM

I highly doubt the Touch will steal any significant NIT sales. It is a media device. A clever one, a technologically advanced one, but a music (oh and video) player nonetheless. We are talking almost totally separate markets, I don't care how many similarities there are-- the differences are too profound. I cannot emphasize that enough. The differences are the critical aspects of each device, the ones that drive them into separate markets and distinct uses.

The N800 death knell prognostications are exaggerated, misguided, and reactionary. They are based on more speculation than fact, and the facts involved are propped with little or no regard for critical context.

The Touch will undoubtedly sell more devices. But it targets a different demographic for the most part, and will pull at most perhaps 3% of those who might have gone for an N800. I'll stake my career on that. Just wait and see. The current iPod Touch bandwagon jumping is, begging everyone's pardon, not much different than the buzz around the N800 at launch. Remember that? ;)

Over 110m iPods sold to date according to Jobs in his speech today. Small in comparison to the overall CE market, but a very respectable number of high-margin audio devices sold by a company that used to flog computers! :)

Milhouse, you missed my point. I was referring to electronics devices at large. That also includes computers, of which despite the trumpeting of Apple fans, Apple holds a very tiny slice. Oh, and it includes phones too-- especially multimedia ones.

EDIT: okay, maybe you didn't miss the point but just wanted to keep the argument going. :p

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 09:15 PM

Look at our post count... first to 2000 buys the beers. :)

Different demographics for sure, but very similar functionality (at least, the N800 overlaps the Touch 100%). One will sell by the articulated lorry load to simpletons, the other won't (think: Smart car trunk loads). :)

What annoys me the most about the Touch is that in a different parallel universe, the N800 could have been the Touch and a runaway success for Nokia. I still love my N800 though, and I won't be getting a Touch because it doesn't have Bluetooth (and that's the only reason I won't be getting one).

I still think it would be more sensible for Nokia to leak some of their future plans to keep the scene bubbling than to keep quiet and blow our minds in 6 months time...

Texrat

09-05-2007, 09:23 PM

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 09:24 PM

I highly doubt the Touch will steal any significant NIT sales.

Just curious, how much is there to steal?

BTW, I actually saw an N800 in a store yesterday on the end of the mobile phone shelf at a major electronic retailer in Berlin. I can't imagine they'd ever sell one of them at that store. Everybody was looking at all the mobile phones / smart phones. Who's going to pick up this giant Nokia and look at it? I can hear it now, "What? I can't make a call?"

Regardless of Apple's size (almost as much annual profit as Nokia and at least triple Sony's), I think it's fair to say the N800 won't steal any significant sales from the iPod Touch. People will go to the store looking for the iPod touch, not the other way around.

Edit: Actually I just got your point. Those looking for the features of the N800 will buy it and not the iPod touch. That goes back to my first question.

Texrat

09-05-2007, 09:30 PM

Just curious, how much is there to steal?

BTW, I actually saw an N800 in a store yesterday on the end of the mobile phone shelf at a major electronic retailer in Berlin. I can't imagine they'd ever sell one of them at that store. Everybody was looking at all the mobile phones / smart phones. Who's going to pick up this giant Nokia and look at it? I can hear it now, "What? I can't make a call?"

Regardless of Apple's size (almost as much annual profit as Nokia and at least triple Sony's), I think it's fair to say the N800 won't steal any significant sales from the iPod Touch. People will go to the store looking for the iPod touch, not the other way around.

I've acknowledged that the N800's market is not as large as the iPod Touch's. At least for the foreseeable future. ;) And as amazed as you may be by this, the N800s DO sell-- look at the growing number of members here for a decent idea (of course that includes 770 owners and some overlap). Even if I knew the numbers, though, I am forbidden to reveal them, sorry. Suffice to say, bottom line, the NITs have been (as I said) successful enough. That is, enough to support future development (just you guys wait).

Your last comment goes both ways. Anyone wanting a true palmtop computer is not going to purchase the iPod Touch. It's a media player. The N800 is more.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 09:48 PM

Again: the differences, regardless of how few, are paramount.

All the arguing in the world won't alter that, Mil. But I do agree Nokia can do much, MUCH better in communications. However... did you not see the fruits of my labors there? Did Quim Gil come here or not? Is that not a start? ;)

Yes yes, it's improving but like you I'd like to see more buzz about NITs than there is - to grow the community, to make them more successful than they so far have been, to show that the N800 can appeal to Joe Public as much as the Touch will/does. Bringing Quim here is great but we already own N800s so that by itself isn't going to help sales - Nokia need to reach out to prospective owners and convince them they need the N800 (however most are now convinced they probably need the iPod Touch!). If that means hyping the product with promises of so far unreleased software then so be it...

And... Guiness? :D

Eugh... Stella Artois for me :)

Texrat

09-05-2007, 09:50 PM

No one here is more frustrated by our inability to pump up the N800 buzz than I am. By a LONG shot.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 09:51 PM

Apart from me (I need to make up 4 posts... wtf!)

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 09:54 PM

But I do agree Nokia can do much, MUCH better in communications. However... did you not see the fruits of my labors there? Did Quim Gil come here or not? Is that not a start?

Hey Texrat. Can you channel some of that influence into the design department? Nokia needs to lose the dopey shapes and crappy silver plastic they like to overuse. Blaaah. My 770 is OK - buttons are not comfy, but I find the N800 fugly. (Sorry, just providing input in case the Nokia muckety mucks like to read forums)

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 09:57 PM

dlhuss - vote and/or comment here (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9344)!

jackass124

09-05-2007, 09:58 PM

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 09:58 PM

I'll ask Reggie to change it something more appropriate.

(Nearly there...)

Reggie

09-05-2007, 10:05 PM

Threads merged.

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 10:06 PM

dlhuss - vote and/or comment here (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9344)!

Hey! They even had "Fugly" as an option and I'm the only "Fugly" vote.

What the heck?

You people really don't mind the N800 looks? Wow.

Hmmm. I mean, silver around a screen is definitely distracting, don't you think? It needs to be black.

That's the least of what's wrong with the design - the shape is all wrong and the materials, naaa.

OK, sorry, off topic.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:06 PM

you have to think the n800 is Nokia's "test" model....it's perfect for ironing out and de-bugging their ideas/tests....i would think they're gonna answer with something....my guess is within the next 2 months....they're gonna need it ready for the Christmas season...assuming their plan is to face off with the Touch..
....maybe they don't care...but that would mean they eliminate the non-geek market if they choose not to compete...of course that's the lion's share...to me, the N800 feels like the jazz music market in relation to the music market as a whole...very small dedicated niche...an elite group...

I thought the 770 was the test model! Maybe they're following the same pattern as Microsoft, version 3 will be awesome!

My hope is that now Intel are getting involved with Maemo, and Hildon has been spun out to be a full community project (with input from Intel) things should improve far more rapidly than in the past. However, dropping a few hints would be nice, like for instance if this (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface) UI is possible or likely to appear on NITs in a future update (I'm guessing it's possible but that's all it is - a guess).

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:07 PM

Threads merged.

Thanks Reggie! :)

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:10 PM

Hey! They even had "Fugly" as an option and I'm the only "Fugly" vote.

What the heck?

You people really don't mind the N800 looks? Wow.

Hmmm. I mean, silver around a screen is definitely distracting, don't you think? It needs to be black.

That's shape is the least of what's wrong with the design.

I too was a little surprised by the Poll results... pretty much everyone thinks it's either good looking or OK. Personally I think the N800 hit every branch on the ugly tree when it's compared with an iPhone/iPod Touch, but if you had asked me the same question in January 2007 I'd have said it was OK (but still not great). Basically, it's not aging well in my (and seemingly your eyes) but then we're in the minority! :)

Yay... beers are on the Texan rodent. Stellas all round. :D

Texrat

09-05-2007, 10:10 PM

Hey Texrat. Can you channel some of that influence into the design department? Nokia needs to lose the dopey shapes and crappy silver plastic they like to overuse. Blaaah. My 770 is OK - buttons are not comfy, but I find the N800 fugly. (Sorry, just providing input in case the Nokia muckety mucks like to read forums)

Some of us truly appreciate the retro industrial design of the N800. And the faceplate is metal (although you might be referring to the 770). And if you don't like the looks of the N800... well... turn a blind eye to successors... :p

cairn

09-05-2007, 10:15 PM

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:16 PM

Some of us truly appreciate the retro industrial design of the N800. And the faceplate is metal (although you might be referring to the 770). And if you don't like the looks of the N800... well... turn a blind eye to successors... :p

It looks better when I'm drunk. :D

Seriously, I hope the successor is more consumer friendly and better looking (ie. "sexy"). Apple have got CE design licked, so copy it. Nokia have said they'll copy if it's the right thing to do - trust me, in terms of CE device design, copying someone else is definately the right thing for Nokia to do!

Texrat

09-05-2007, 10:19 PM

Eh, design preference is sooo subjective-- the poll showed that. Or maybe it simply proved what tasteless barbarians some of you are. :p

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:21 PM

I made my prediction about the new UI the other day on this forum (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=73179&postcount=16). I think it's inevitable that the Hildon UI shown on the Ubuntu Mobile wiki will end up on the n800, especially since "Nokia Engineers" are contributing to the project.

You might be right, but since it was formerly a Nokia project it could be they're still involved in the overall Ubuntu/community project but not necessarily the new UI. After all, Nokia believe only companies can implement (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2007/08/summer-teasers.html) a well designed UI as it's beyond the abilities of a community run project. Sigh (can anyone say "arrogant"?)

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:23 PM

Eh, design preference is sooo subjective-- the poll showed that. Or maybe it simply proved what tasteless barbarians some of you are. :p

We're geeks - hardly the ideal candidates to give opinion on design! We're more interested in what's underneath...

Texrat

09-05-2007, 10:26 PM

Milhouse, Milhouse, Milhouse... sigh.

Third, open source based UIs and end user experiences, build by communities and hackers, are not that good. It is not easy to find community built software that provides UI W-O-W and high level of usability. It seems that high quality integration and user experience requires a stong central mechanism, such as a company, to run the implementation. Now, please, prove me wrong!

Normally I'd agree with you regarding arrogance (trust me), but that suuure looks like a challenge to me...

dlhuss

09-05-2007, 10:26 PM

Some of us truly appreciate the retro industrial design of the N800. And the faceplate is metal (although you might be referring to the 770). And if you don't like the looks of the N800... well... turn a blind eye to successors... :p

I was thinking silver plastic of my and my girlfriend's Nokia mobile phones and how the slider mechanism of hers feels terrible compared to a Samsung D900. I have to admit the N800 was in my head too.

The retro style reminds me of the old beige speakerphones from the 60's.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:30 PM

Milhouse, Milhouse, Milhouse... sigh.

Normally I'd agree with you regarding arrogance (trust me), but that suuure looks like a challenge to me...

I think it's in the comments, but OpenMoko looks quite good - arguably better than Hildon.

My point is that Nokia haven't done such a good job with Hildon and the apps on the Nokia - there are a number of mistakes and inconsistencies in the NIT UI to the point where Nokia don't have the right to yet challenge the community to prove they can do it better.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 10:33 PM

I was thinking silver plastic of my and my girlfriend's Nokia mobile phones and how the slider mechanism of hers feels terrible compared to a Samsung D900. I have to admit the N800 was in my head too.

The retro style reminds me of the old beige speakerphones from the 60's.

The new 8GB N95 and N81 (announced last week) are all black, and look great - for me, a definite improvement on the original silver/plum N95. From comments I've seen so far elsewhere, the reaction has also been very positive. Maybe Nokia are getting the message... all black is the new grey with silver trim. :)

cairn

09-05-2007, 10:39 PM

On Ari's blog, he said Third, open source based UIs and end user experiences, build by communities and hackers, are not that good. It is not easy to find community built software that provides UI W-O-W and high level of usability. It seems that high quality integration and user experience requires a stong central mechanism, such as a company, to run the implementation. Now, please, prove me wrong!

I didn't interpret that comment as necessarily relating to Nokia's UI at all, but to open source projects in general. In that regard, I agree with him. I think lack of a well-designed, efficient, and attractive UI is a common complaint of open source projects. I think Ubuntu in particular has made some strides in this area precisely by having a strong central control over the look and feel of the UI. I'm making some really broad generalizations here, but I've seen this argument come up a lot.

That doesn't mean that corporate produced UIs are necessarily any better. I'm sure we can all think of many different examples of a poorly implemented UI that was made worse by the fact that it's closed source and difficult to change.

iball

09-05-2007, 11:04 PM

like for instance if this (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface) UI is possible or likely to appear on NITs in a future update (I'm guessing it's possible but that's all it is - a guess).
Holy crap, that's EXACTLY what I need on my N800 right now!
Seriously, that kicks the snot out of what Nokia's done with Hildon on the N800 and they should seriously look at implementing it in future firmware upgrades, even if it's only as a selectable option from the control panel.

THe big problem with Nokia is that when they do try to copy Apple - and the recently disclosed touchscreen Nokia phone and the U.S. flagship stores prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they are desperately trying to copy Apple - they find they can't follow through.
Case in point: the employees at the U.S. flagship stores are phucking *****s when it comes to Nokia phones. When I was in the Chicago store I overheard one of the sales people in there telling a potential customer that the N80 and N95 had wi-fi whereas the iPhone didn't. I walked over and told her that was wrong and that perhaps she should actually do some proper research before spouting off incorrect information to customers. Then I had to show her the wi-fi settings on the phones she was trying to sell.

Now, walk into any Apple store and ask a technical question about an iPod or an iPhone or any of the computers they sell here and you'll get a good answer pronto. The folks there know the products they sell.

And Nokia needs to seriously hire some decent PR flacks that KNOW how to excite and wow a crowd without actually trying. That's what the great Stevie-J does at his keynotes and presentations. Those things are timed down to the minute, well-rehearsed beforehand, and everything is setup and ready to go long before Steve takes the stage. Almost nothing goes wrong during his performance.
If I had ever given a presentation or briefing like OPK does then I'd be out of a job by now. And I work in frickin' government IT where that's considered a tertiary skill at best!
He's the frickin' lead frontman for a global mobile phone (now "computer"?) company and his presentation skills suck!
Just like we expect more from Nokia's devices and software we expect more out of their leadership as well.

Anything is possible now and even the DeLorean is making a comeback.

anderbr

09-05-2007, 11:16 PM

I highly doubt the Touch will steal any significant NIT sales. It is a media device. (snip )... will pull at most perhaps 3% of those who might have gone for an N800.

As a Nokia stockholder I'd love to turn that around - with just a bit more consumerization the N800 could have gotten maybe 3% of the iPod market, instead of .0003%

And don't flame me too bad, cause I do love my N800 ( and 770 ) but have there even *been* significant NIT sales to date?

The ingredients for sucess of the NIT are there, they just have not been mixed properly imho. C'mon Nokia, put some lipstick on this pig!

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 11:37 PM

Anything is possible now and even the DeLorean is making a comeback.

Does the new model come standard with a flux capacitor? If so I'll take one... money won't be an issue (not after the first trip anyway).

Texrat

09-05-2007, 11:45 PM

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 11:47 PM

As a Nokia stockholder I'd love to turn that around - with just a bit more consumerization the N800 could have gotten maybe 3% of the iPod market, instead of .0003%

And don't flame me too bad, cause I do love my N800 ( and 770 ) but have there even *been* significant NIT sales to date?

The ingredients for sucess of the NIT are there, they just have not been mixed properly imho. C'mon Nokia, put some lipstick on this pig!

The reaction to the announced Sprint/Nokia N80x WiMax device will be interesting in light of the iPod Touch launch - sales were never going to be stellar as it's a new service (WiMax) and I'm guessing Sprint is just one of several service providers in any given region, and existing contracts may restrict initial take up to some extent, but comparison of the new device with the iPod/iPhone will be inevitable.

Will consumers see the value in the N80x+WiMax, or will consumers prefer the more limited but more attractive ("cooler") functionality offered by the Touch (and even the iPhone)? Maybe the N80x+Wimax with a decent sized in-box memory card (8GB?) and a new multi-coloured finger friendly UI will stand a fighting chance. :)

barry99705

09-05-2007, 11:47 PM

Some of us truly appreciate the retro industrial design of the N800. And the faceplate is metal (although you might be referring to the 770). And if you don't like the looks of the N800... well... turn a blind eye to successors... :p

Could be worse, it could be a Microsoft (http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/09/nylon-zune.jpg) product.

Milhouse

09-05-2007, 11:51 PM

Could be worse, it could be a Microsoft (http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2007/09/nylon-zune.jpg) product.

Classy! Hot pink and rhinestones... nice (better be careful what I say, it might be popular where Tex is from...*) :)

Haven't Microsoft shut down the Zune business unit yet, or is that announcement scheduled for tomorrow? :)

* I'm referring to the rhinestones...

EDIT: The comments (http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/nylon-and-urban-outfitters-getting-limited-edition-pink-zune/#comments) for the Pink Zune article on engadget are quite amusing - great move by Microsoft to launch a special edition Pink Zune on the same day Apple relaunch their entire iPod range... :)

thoughtfix

09-06-2007, 12:44 AM

I weighed in on this one in a Coffee with ThoughtFix Special Edition video editorial. (http://www.ultramobilegeek.com/2007/09/coffee-with-thoughtfix-special-edition.html)

Fidibus

09-06-2007, 12:52 AM

http://www.lucafiligheddu.com/2007/09/apple-ipod-touch-vs-nokia-n800.html

http://www.lucafiligheddu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/screenshot-24.jpg

Future = Google Phone // Asus Eee PC 701 // New iPhone 2008 // and others comes -
more cheaply and also innovatively - Nokia N800 - the projection/lead goes too end - unfortunately

http://www.viddler.com/explore/atmasphere/videos/53/

gammer

09-06-2007, 05:19 AM

Just curious, how much is there to steal?

BTW, I actually saw an N800 in a store yesterday on the end of the mobile phone shelf at a major electronic retailer in Berlin. I can't imagine they'd ever sell one of them at that store. Everybody was looking at all the mobile phones / smart phones. Who's going to pick up this giant Nokia and look at it? I can hear it now, "What? I can't make a call?"

Regardless of Apple's size (almost as much annual profit as Nokia and at least triple Sony's), I think it's fair to say the N800 won't steal any significant sales from the iPod Touch. People will go to the store looking for the iPod touch, not the other way around.

Edit: Actually I just got your point. Those looking for the features of the N800 will buy it and not the iPod touch. That goes back to my first question.

You mean Saturn at Alexanderplatz? They also had the 770 and this was my introduction to these devices. Maybe I was the only person who ever bought a NIT there...

flareup

09-06-2007, 05:25 AM

The UI Millhouse linked to is needed yesterday - it's (presumably customizable) different appearances would appeal to the fanboys and also to the apple-type user - obviously it's not a simple case of cosmetics but surely canola (which is what, a year old now?) showed the premise worked and really, we all know that however many man-hours something takes can be shortened in timescale by more money for more men (and women)!

And I agree with everyone else who says so - we need concrete information about developments that are ahead - hell, apple don't seem to be too worried about announcing things way up front, why are nokia so cagey? Is this forum really a hotbed of industrial spying? :D

For everyone who wants sales figures for 700/800, how about simply checking the membership numbers of this forum?

I've had both models from almost day one, live in the UK, travel around Europe and have not met one single person who has one or even knew what it was/that it existed. I saw it on sale in Singapore a couple of weeks back, again, no big deal, just an ugly big thing tacked on the end of shelves of great looking phones.

Some of us truly appreciate the retro industrial design of the N800. And the faceplate is metal (although you might be referring to the 770). And if you don't like the looks of the N800... well... turn a blind eye to successors... :p

I'm not a Texrat knocker by any means - I reckon he is a genuine enthusiast, you can't deny it. But comments like this really do come across as some kind of internet street-teaming thing, (we get it a lot in the music industry) it's a bit like "you think x's new track is good, just wait 'til you hear y's". It's beginning to grate on me, these hints of "if only you've seen what I've seen" just give me the mental picture of a blind-sided nokia R&D team frantically back-engineering the latest apple product :eek:

Like most people, I only have so much "disposable income (it's called a credit card!). I bought the 800 the very first moment I could. Even if i knew it was three months, six months off, but I knew what the "successors" were, it would make an impact on my future buying plans.

Time for Nokia to finally listen to the limited buyer-base it has got for NITs or lose out I think.

dlhuss

09-06-2007, 07:41 AM

You mean Saturn at Alexanderplatz?..

actually...ja!

wow, small world

bedrzich

09-06-2007, 08:02 AM

iPod Touch will be excellent device, especially with third party application, which hopefully appear soon thanks to programmers working on iPhone soft. Even lack of BT or mike shouldn't be a problem - they're availlable as extra add-ons for regular iPods already - that's a matter of time when they'll come dedicated for iPod touch I think

ysss

09-06-2007, 08:07 AM

nice, going to order a 16gb one.

maxilogan

09-06-2007, 08:32 AM

I'll ask Reggie to change it something more appropriate.

(Nearly there...)

Hey Administrators! Let this guy **ss into some sort of pot and do him a dope test. He is doping his post amount! :D

maxilogan

09-06-2007, 08:37 AM

for instance if this (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface) UI is possible or likely to appear on NITs in a future update (I'm guessing it's possible but that's all it is - a guess).

It is based on Hildon so I really *hope* we will have it on future releases. I dream about it every night ;) jokes apart, I would really like to be able to use the stylus less and my fingers more, and to have a real_(or_almost)_desktop with icons and whatever or a launcher (though I'm using simple launcher but I'd like it to be more customizable).

UI is definitely the part where N800 lacks more at this moment (and, yes, I don't complain about its design :rolleyes: )

Texrat

09-06-2007, 09:30 AM

I'm not a Texrat knocker by any means - I reckon he is a genuine enthusiast, you can't deny it. But comments like this really do come across as some kind of internet street-teaming thing, (we get it a lot in the music industry) it's a bit like "you think x's new track is good, just wait 'til you hear y's". It's beginning to grate on me, these hints of "if only you've seen what I've seen" just give me the mental picture of a blind-sided nokia R&D team frantically back-engineering the latest apple product :eek:

Your perception couldn't be more offbase.

Enthusiast? Yes. Blind??? By no means. I am well aware of the tablets' shortcomings and Nokia's missteps, and have acknowledged them over and over again in this forum.

If you want to find blind devotees, look at the rabid Apple fans (a little irony there). If you want more objectivity, pay closer attention to what I write, and try not to apply too much bias.

And I'm sorry if the hints grate on you. Based on the feedback I've received, you're in the minority, and I tend not to pander there. As I've told the few hardcore malcontents here (not saying you are one), if anyone has any trouble with me or what I write, the Ignore feature works very well.

Oh, and I'm nowhere near R&D... unfortunately.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 09:36 AM

Classy! Hot pink and rhinestones... nice (better be careful what I say, it might be popular where Tex is from...*) :)

Haven't Microsoft shut down the Zune business unit yet, or is that announcement scheduled for tomorrow? :)

* I'm referring to the rhinestones...

EDIT: The comments (http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/nylon-and-urban-outfitters-getting-limited-edition-pink-zune/#comments) for the Pink Zune article on engadget are quite amusing - great move by Microsoft to launch a special edition Pink Zune on the same day Apple relaunch their entire iPod range... :)

Good God! :eek:

If Microsoft had been smart, they would have made the Zune highly-skinnable so that there was no need to introduce that... thing... just sell skins.

Roc Ingersol

09-06-2007, 10:21 AM

gnuite

09-06-2007, 10:30 AM

And I'm sorry if the hints grate on you. Based on the feedback I've received, you're in the minority, and I tend not to pander there. As I've told the few hardcore malcontents here (not saying you are one), if anyone has any trouble with me or what I write, the Ignore feature works very well.
I don't mean any disrespect, but actually, this is one of the few cases where the ignore feature doesn't work. You can't just put everyone on your ignore list once they start reacting to your bait. It puts a damper on any pre-existing discussion. Even this response is proof of this, so I'll keep it brief.

Yes, a good many people may appreciate your "hints," but I for one prefer to focus on current development, not wild speculation based on someone's "I know something you don't know" mantra, especially in the middle of a reasonable discussion. So, do us a favor and post your "hints" in their own posts, so that you don't poison other threads, and so that those of us that don't find it amusing can just ignore the hint threads instead of adding everyone involved to our ignore lists.

ragnar

09-06-2007, 10:38 AM

I was initially excited for the Touch - then turned off because it junked the camera and bluetooth and didn't have the Classic's HDD. But the more I think about it, the more I'm not interested.

We know the thing's locked down. So there's no expandable memory. No hope for googleGears or even Firefox. No hope for mososo. No hope for internet apps that Apple doesn't care about: VNC, IRC, ssh, UPnP media streaming (kinda necessary with only a few gig of storage), hell: chat is still up in the air. No hope for generic data sharing. No hope for sync'ing media files however-the-hell-i-want. No hope for expanding media format support. No hope for games; aside from what Apple wants to sell.

Honestly, all Nokia needs to do - is get a better camera, better default media player and better UI performance. (GPS wouldn't hurt) Goosed-up overall horsepower would be nice -- I know that's a contentious issue around here, but it's imperative that the UI get faster. The true strength of the touch UI is merely its responsiveness (and the proximity-weighted spelling correction. we seriously need that).

There's been a lot of interesting discussion in this thread certainly, I think Roc has a very interesting post.

There's kind of two things.

1. What can I do with the device? Does it do the things that I want it to do?
2. How is the UI for doing the things that I want?

Well, actually three things.

3. Bang for buck. How much does it cost? Is a great UI worth so and so much more in cash.

(I'm a Nokia employee, just to state again, this is now my personal opinion.)

I think the iPod Touch is great in the department 2., but I'm not too sure about 1. Or 3. I've been playing around with the iPhone now for some time. The UI isn't perfect, but then again nothing is. It delivers a very nice user experience in nearly all the critical fronts. Kudos to Apple.

Well, but then the iPod. I carry my current 30gb iPod around, and use it to listen to music. It's a focused device. Remember everyone praising Apple for creating focused devices? I guess it also does photos and games and something else, but I never use those features. The scrollwheel is quite nice UI for my iPod. It's "good enough".

The Touch isn't really a focused device so much anymore. It's a media device / web device.

But as a web device it's not really a Great web device. There's no email support, no proper chat support, no voip support, no Flash support etc. The browser has a great UI, but its functionality is limited.

As a media device... Well, do I really need to flip and pan the lists with a touchscreen? It doesn't really improve my music listening experience all that much. It has less capacity for a higher price than just the iPod. For videos it has a bigger screen, but "nobody is watching" videos with that size anyway. (Although the Youtube experience is very nice, yes.)

What is between a focused device and a general multipurpose device? A semi-purpose device?

It's increasingly hard to hit the sweet spot of consumers between giving A Couple Of good features in a competitive package. Especially with a closed solution. With an open solution, and with multiple solutions available, the users can make that choice. With the iPod Touch Apple is making that choice for the users. You want to have the browser, photos, videos, contact book (with no email), calculator, clock... and that's it.

The question can be also phrased in this way: why wouldn't I get the iPod classic, or then the iPhone?

iball

09-06-2007, 10:59 AM

What I find ironic are all the Apple fanbois over at Engadget babbling on about how they need the iPod Touch to have bluetooth to view the pics from their camera phones on a bigger screen, use BT DUN for web browsing on the move, the possibility of VoIP and A2DP, etc.
Gee, if all those features are "important" to them they why the phuck didn't they use Google or something and get an N800 already?
I'll tell you why....because they AREN'T important to them. They want the Touch thing to do MORE than Apple intends it to do and they will be sorely disappointed with it. THOSE are the people Nokia needs to be selling ITs to.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:21 AM

Gotta agree with ragnar and iball. I'm really thinking the touchscreen for a media player may turn out to be not only overkill but a mistake.

What's so nice about the classic iPod? You can easily navigate features blindly by touch alone. The control is that simple and intuitive. With a touch screen (and here's some irony) you're going to have to look at the device often to navigate. With a computer-class device like the N800 (or similar) that's an expectation and no big deal. With a dedicated media player it just might be.

Again: more hype than practicality in all of this so far. But I'm going to wait-and-see. I have no grudges against Apple or their products and actually hope they do well. If nothing else they certainly inspire and goad other companies...

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:26 AM

I don't mean any disrespect, but actually, this is one of the few cases where the ignore feature doesn't work. You can't just put everyone on your ignore list once they start reacting to your bait. It puts a damper on any pre-existing discussion. Even this response is proof of this, so I'll keep it brief.

Yes, a good many people may appreciate your "hints," but I for one prefer to focus on current development, not wild speculation based on someone's "I know something you don't know" mantra, especially in the middle of a reasonable discussion. So, do us a favor and post your "hints" in their own posts, so that you don't poison other threads, and so that those of us that don't find it amusing can just ignore the hint threads instead of adding everyone involved to our ignore lists.

Bait??? :eek: Another misconception.

Tease? Sure. But I'll take your condemnation into consideration, gnuite. There's never been any intent on my part to bait anyone with hints. Just a little playfulness. And although I'm loathe to pander to a minority, I'm not the ******* you and a few others seem to think. I'll rethink my... baiting. :rolleyes:

dont

09-06-2007, 11:27 AM

I wonder when Nokia will cut the price on the N800.
Apple has put them in a position were the N800 will collect dust on the selves if Nokia does not move fast!

I am surprised that no one has picked up on this point.

I lusted after a NIT for a long time, but I only recently bought one when the N770's went on end of life sale. At $400 they were out of the question, at $149 it became a no brainer for me. I suspect there are lots of folks in this category.

I _hope_ that a $299 Touch will force Nokia to announce an N900 (with at least 8 Gb built-in) for a lot less. And do it soon, Nokia needs to compete for this year's Christmas sales.

I think that it needs to be priced at $199 - Nokia must be able to mass build these devices at least as cheaply as Apple.

Don.

iball

09-06-2007, 11:29 AM

I also like the "can it play Doom" comments over there on Engadget.
My N95 plays Quake perfectly, who cares about Doom anymore?
Getting Quake to run on a device is the new standard.
So...who's going to get it to run on the N800? Looking at you, ArnimS. ;)

I have a nice 60GB 5g iPod that usually sits in my car when I'm not loading it up with tunes or changing playlists. I never use the N800 for music or video, I use it for the occasional game but mostly for web browsing and email (Claws mail 3.0) and Skype. Since none of Apple's current or even near-future offerings will do anything of that nature then I'm not buying one.
I would work harder at porting stuff over to the N800 if working with Scratchbox wasn't such a pain-in-the-*ss.

flareup

09-06-2007, 11:31 AM

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:32 AM

Don, I highly doubt the N800 successor (or next variant) will be priced that low. Odds are it will be close to the original N800 price. It will have MUCH more functionality than the iPhone or iPod Touch, and I'm not just teasing with that revelation-- it's a safe assumption on anyone's part. There's no way it could be $199 USD. Not and meet the typical expectations of power, performance and usability.

However, I would not be surprised to see the N800's price dropped. I will not speculate on amounts.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:34 AM

hey texrat, I wasn't calling YOU blind, I was saying nokia appeared "blind-sided" by Apple, which is a phrase that means something akin to "taken by surprise".

I do actually pay close attention to what you write (one has to in order to read between the lines, no?) - but in this particular case perhaps you should have read my twopenceworth more closely ;)

Flareup, I re-read your post and I still come away with that same interpretation. Maybe I'm stupid instead of blind.

And the only time there will ever be anything "between the lines" in my posts is when I'm obviously hinting at something. Otherwise, they're meant verbatim.

Milhouse

09-06-2007, 11:42 AM

All the criticism of the iPod Touch as a semi-purpose device or whatever will be moot when these products fly off the shelves and are the #1 Christmas sales item - and isn't that really the point? Apple are giving people what they want, or alternatively making people believe it's what they need. And quite often, Apple are right on the money - there's not been any significant backlash about the iPhone and it's functionality, and I doubt there'll be a backlash about the Touch once people get it in their sweaty palms and begin to use it, even if it's just to play audio.

The touchscreen and coverflow etc. may be overkill, but it gives the product that "WOW" factor which makes ordinary people automatically buy the damned thing without thinking twice... where is the N800 "WOW" factor? Really, it doesn't have one - from the device design to the UI design there is nothing "WOW" about the N800. Lots of "neat" and "that's nice", but nothing "WOW".

Nokia may be producing good multi-function devices, but they're not very good at selling them - few if anyone knows about them (poor marketing), fewer still want them (no "WOW" factor). And that, surely, is where Nokia need to improve - for all the "faults" and limitations of the Apple products, Apple know how to make people "want" their products, their products literally sell themselves.

Milhouse

09-06-2007, 11:48 AM

dont

09-06-2007, 11:56 AM

Don, I highly doubt the N800 successor (or next variant) will be priced that low. Odds are it will be close to the original N800 price.

Hmmm... That would make it more expensive that the Touch and only about $100 less than the cheapest Dell laptop. Not a great price point.

I think it is time for Nokia to eat a lot of margin to get market share.

Don.

FWIW. I recall a story about Raytheon and microwave ovens. Raytheon introduced the 'Radarange' for $2000-$3000. It did not sell well at all. Eventually they solicited some advice from a non-technical consultant. He simply asked ' how big is this thing?' and after he was told that it was about the size of a large breadbox he said that it had to be priced at $500 regardless of what it actually did.

When I look at a hand held device I see about $200 - or less ...

blee

09-06-2007, 12:23 PM

It's called iTunes, and the iTunes Store. An iPod is part of a system, and has an extremely simple workflow that allows even the novice to completely experience all of its (albeit limited) features. Point is, there are little to no unexplored corners, no features wasted and unused. Someone who has never heard of a codec can enjoy feature films, video podcasts and music with a very small learning curve.

To compare, the 770 (and subsequently the N800) was put out there in a let's-see-what-you-can-do-with-this mentality. That's perfect for the tinkerers and hobbyists, but its quite clear that most people are not hackers, computer engineers or programmers. Finding a clear purpose for a device is hard if someone isn't leading the way, especially when there *are* limitations, such as memory and processor-speed. Functions feel unnecessary or poorly-designed. The thing itself feels unfocused.

Promise a slick media experience with effortless synchronization and odds are you can deliver. Promise a complete laptop-like browsing experience in your pocket and odds are you can't.

In summary, it's better to do 50% of things to 100% satisfaction than 100% of things to 50% satisfaction. That's been the success of Apple these days, and why people will flock to an Apple solution -- because of the promise of a complete experience, even if it comes with incomplete functionality.

But incomplete to who? That's the point. We like the ITs because our requirements for features is large. But right now, we're the exception, and in many ways the ITs are ahead of the curve.

This guy hit the nail on the head... Apple products don't do everything infact you can say they do very little. BUT what it does do it does better than any other product out there.

People whine about oh it's not open source you can't install extra programs on it you can't tweak it... let me tell you this I'm not a hacker, I use the application manager that comes with the N800. I don't use the terminal, I don't have becomeroot installed. Yet some how my skype crashes on launch and I can't fix it I don't know where to find the debug information, I don't even know who to tell. My skype has been broken for 2 months, I've tried reinstalling it but I'll be damned if I have to reinstall the entire os and kill all my apps.

You can say Apple has good marketing Job's is a fantastic magician but you know what his tricks aren't illusions. They're real every feature they mentions it works as advertised.

Mark S

09-06-2007, 12:28 PM

I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks this new Apple device will not kill the N800 is totally, completely wrong! Most users here are the hacker and enthusiast types. I am not. I am Mr. Average Consumer. I have owned an N779 and a N800 and would buy the Apple device instead of a NIT because even though the N800 theoretically can do more than the Apple, in reality for Mr. Average Consumer the N800 cannot do much at all and doesn't even do things it is supposed to be good at perfectly. Plus, no pda functions, no MS Word compatible word processor, no citrix, no real email. I know everyone always says that is not what the N800 was "meant" for and that it is an Internet Tablet, well guess what folks -Apple's device is going to kick the sh*t out of the N800 as far as browsing is concerned. Oh and using a cell phone with the N800 is no simple task, plus is dog slow so the mobility is not a real advantage for the N800. If Nokia wanted the NIT to survive it needed to make it into something that would really have differentiated it from the Apple device. Nokia will not be able to sell anymore IT devices after the Apple device hits the shelves. R.I.P. N800! It is over.

p.s. The Newton was the best pda ever made, but it died because it was ahead of its time and could not keep up.

Jerome

09-06-2007, 12:37 PM

Bluetooth support is scheduled for MacOS 10.5, due for release in October.

Duh? My Mac certainly has bluetooth support NOW. I've even used it to exchange files with the N800...

Anyway. As to bluetooth support in the iPod touch, the cited pictures have been corrected on the apple site, and the bluetooth symbol removed. So it looks like it was a mistake and the iPod touch will not have bluetooth support, which also means it won't be able to browse the web via a cell phone, support wireless bluetooth headphones, etc...

Texrat

09-06-2007, 12:51 PM

Hmmm... That would make it more expensive that the Touch and only about $100 less than the cheapest Dell laptop. Not a great price point.

I think it is time for Nokia to eat a lot of margin to get market share.

Don.

FWIW. I recall a story about Raytheon and microwave ovens. Raytheon introduced the 'Radarange' for $2000-$3000. It did not sell well at all. Eventually they solicited some advice from a non-technical consultant. He simply asked ' how big is this thing?' and after he was told that it was about the size of a large breadbox he said that it had to be priced at $500 regardless of what it actually did.

When I look at a hand held device I see about $200 - or less ...

I can't just arbitrarily dismiss your points, because they have general merit. $200 does "feel" like a magic number for an upper limit on handheld devices. The problem is that right now no company is going to get the power of the N800's successor down to that price point. Just flat not going to happen any time soon. Not because they won't, but because they can't. Now, if you want to argue that they follow the PS3 or Xbox 360 model and seed the ecosystem while taking a beating on margins, well, you *would* have a point-- except that there was already an ecosystem in place for games... Microsoft, Sony and others have always merely advanced the state-of-the-art rather than really inventing anything new (since the Atari 2600 that is).

Nokia's dilemma is having to create everything: device, core software, much ancillary software, (some) sales channels, etc. There's a chicken-and-egg scenario that prohibits a loss-leader approach that can be made up via software sales-- especially given the Open Source aspect. Now, financial gain can be realized via services, but again, that ecosystem is still too immature. So Nokia really has no choice with this product at this point than to sell it at or near current price levels.

Another point to consider is that price bands do overlap, and consumers generally have no problem with this. True, low-end laptops approach the N800's price but the form factor jumps drmatically. This is where the consumer says, "nice... a significant percentage of laptop power but in a smaller form." Someone like me, and obviously many in this forum, sees the benefit and judges the price overlap to be fair. If the N800 were powered-down to be cheaper, however, even the form factor benefit starts to lose its luster... especially since there are competitors all too willing to fill the void. And along those lines, if the price overlap were truly an issue, Pocket PCs would not be selling.

Sorry for the post length.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 12:53 PM

I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks this new Apple device will not kill the N800 is totally, completely wrong!

I'll bet you my paycheck against yours that you're the one who's wrong.

Different devices. Different markets. Different goals. Totally, completely.

Wanna wager? :D

EDIT: and oh, just so we're perfectly honest here, the iPod Touch lacks the features you bemoan missing in the N800-- so exactly how is it going to "kick the ****" out of it? Especially without Flash? Please. Mark. Think before posting.

Milhouse

09-06-2007, 12:54 PM

Duh? My Mac certainly has bluetooth support NOW. I've even used it to exchange files with the N800...

Duh... sorry, I meant Bluetooth A2DP isn't supported natively in Mac OS 10.4 Tiger - native support for A2DP is coming in Mac OS 10.5 Leopard (http://mactasticsite.blogspot.com/2006/08/a2dp-finally-in-leopard.html).

Anyway. As to bluetooth support in the iPod touch, the cited pictures have been corrected on the apple site, and the bluetooth symbol removed. So it looks like it was a mistake and the iPod touch will not have bluetooth support, which also means it won't be able to browse the web via a cell phone, support wireless bluetooth headphones, etc...

I'll believe that when someone cracks open their Touch and confirms there is no Bluetooth chippery present on the circuit board... :)

jmk

09-06-2007, 01:46 PM

Oh and using a cell phone with the N800 is no simple task, plus is dog slow so the mobility is not a real advantage for the N800.

iTouch is useless for me cause it doesn't support 3G phone for the data connection.

Using mobile phone with the N800 is really simple task. I got unlimited 3G/HSDPA data plan (costs 10 euros per month, my Nokia N80 supports only max 384 kbps connections) and browsing (or whatever you want to do etc. listen 192kbps webradio stream) is fast enough.

iball

09-06-2007, 02:21 PM

I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks this new Apple device will not kill the N800 is totally, completely wrong!
I'll bet you Texrat's paycheck you're wrong.

Most users here are the hacker and enthusiast types.
That's why we own N800s/N770s.

I am not. I am Mr. Average Consumer.
Then Nokia's current lineupof the N770 and N800 isn't for you.

I have owned an N779 and a N800
Translation: I forgot to do basic research on these devices and found out the hard way they aren't for me. Buyer's remorse I guess.

and would buy the Apple device instead of a NIT because even though the N800 theoretically can do more than the Apple, in reality for Mr. Average Consumer the N800 cannot do much at all and doesn't even do things it is supposed to be good at perfectly.
Web browsing is pretty much excellent, made even better with the latest firmware, and even "mo' better" with the microb beta browser.
The email client sucks though.

Plus, no pda functions, no MS Word compatible word processor, no citrix, no real email.
You mean the same things the iPod Touch lacks? You want Citrix for the N800/N770 then go talk to Citrix since it's NOT an open-source program.
If it were you can bet your bottom dollar that someone would have already ported it to the Nokia ITs by now.

I know everyone always says that is not what the N800 was "meant" for and that it is an Internet Tablet,
About time you got something right in your post.

well guess what folks -Apple's device is going to kick the sh*t out of the N800 as far as browsing is concerned.
Oh really? This being the same Safari-based browser that the iPhone has?
You know, the one WITHOUT Flash and the one that doesn't have the screen size or resolution of the N800?
Sorry, but that's a laughabl statement at best.

Oh and using a cell phone with the N800 is no simple task, plus is dog slow so the mobility is not a real advantage for the N800.
Several people have already proven you worng on that point.
And browsing with the N800 via BT through my N95 in Europe on a 3G connection it's pretty damn fast. As fast as browsing on wi-fi for me.

If Nokia wanted the NIT to survive it needed to make it into something that would really have differentiated it from the Apple device.
They did. They gave it Skype and VoIP capabilities, Flash 9 support, and not one but TWO web browsers (Opera and one based on Mozilla code). Then they went and made just about the whole thing open-source and provided a free SDK for it. They also gave it Bluetooth which can be "hacked" to provide the missing A2DP support presently missing in every Apple product to date.
They also gave it a free built-in FM radio.

Nokia will not be able to sell anymore IT devices after the Apple device hits the shelves. R.I.P. N800! It is over.
Can I borrow your time machine? Or at least get the name of your dealer for whatever you're smoking.

p.s. The Newton was the best pda ever made, but it died because it was ahead of its time and could not keep up.
While I wholeheartedly agree about the Newton being one of the best PDAs ever made (the 2100 rocks!) it didn't "die". Steve Jobs killed it. Matter of fact, there are still plenty of Newton User Groups out there and - get this - they even hold MEETINGS and CONS! Someone even went and made a Newton OS emulator that - gasp - runs on the N800! Something else the iPod Touch and iPhone can't do.
On my N800 I'm running both Palm OS and Newton OS. That's three different "operating systems" on one small handheld device. I'm not seeing any current handheld devices from Apple that claim the same.

The main problem with the N800 is Nokia's absolute LACK of advertising for it on U.S. shores, pathetic marketing for it across the globe, and their overall pi$$-poor marketing in North America period.
Two "flagship" stores does not a hit make.

How is the iPod Touch going to "kill" a product no one in the U.S. has heard about and never bought in real numbers anyway?
That's the equivalent of saying that a tiny micro-meteorite hitting the moon will kill off the N800.

E-ville

09-06-2007, 02:40 PM

kbellve

09-06-2007, 02:44 PM

I think Apple has a winner with the iTouch and I might buy one.

I bought a Nokia 770 when they were first available. The most important applications on the Nokia 770 suck; the media player, the browser, and the email client.

Re: Media Player. I see more "Resolution not supported" errors than I see videos. Mplayer does a great job of any video you throw at it.

Re: Browser. This is the best application of the three, but it pukes on many web sites and doesn't support flash very well.

Re. Email: This sucks so bad that I refuse to use it. I use webmail instead.

Re: 3rd party apps...this is where the Nokia rules....

Now, I am a Linux desktop user that uses thunderbird and firefox so I know what applications can do on Linux.

The thing with the iTouch is your videos will work. You know you can go to youtube. You know that the web browser works.

You also know that Apple will support its product and offer continual updates, instead of one or two before they drop it.

To me...iTouch wins hands down...

Milhouse

09-06-2007, 03:17 PM

Re. Email: This sucks so bad that I refuse to use it. I use webmail instead.

I have to agree the email app sucks - someone criticised the Touch (not iTouch - different product!) because it doesn't have email like the NITs but to be honest, the NIT email is so bad the device would be better off without it - it's an embarassment.

Fortunately, modest (http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalink/2007/08/27/587/) is moving ahead and should be a worthy replacement. No idea when though. :(

dal

09-06-2007, 03:17 PM

phi

09-06-2007, 03:21 PM

if we're boiling it down to closed vs open, of course you'll have options with open source stuff, but it won't be polished and "just work" like the close sourced stuff.

i think that's just a fact of life.

of course the new ipods are gonna outsell the IT. They're aimed at different users. However, if Nokia were to come out with something just as polished and open and connected to some type of open system, then we'd have something.

First thing's first though, Nokia needs to settle on just ONE system. No more lifeblogs, Ovi, MOSH. PICK ONE and start building it out. Then use the IT to leverage it as not just a web browser but also a terminal into something great. Which is what Apple has done with the iPod & iTunes.

Luna

09-06-2007, 03:27 PM

You also know that Apple will support its product and offer continual updates, instead of one or two before they drop it.

Support yes, but not necessarily anymore functionality of the device over that present in the shipping product.

dal

09-06-2007, 03:29 PM

of course the new ipods are gonna outsell the IT. They're aimed at different users.
I'm not totally convinced that this is true. I think there is a large overlap. It's this overlap that nokia will lose to apple.

phi

09-06-2007, 03:34 PM

I'm not totally convinced that this is true. I think there is a large overlap. It's this overlap that nokia will lose to apple.

nokia already lost those users from the get go. why? because most of those users will walk into a store and not find an IT to play with.

kingka

09-06-2007, 03:38 PM

so. is the n800 dead yet?

seriously... wtf nokia. get your sh*t together.

i'm just waiting for the meizu minione now. i'm so over this.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 03:47 PM

I definitely think that the ipod touch substantially reduces the potential market for buyers of the n800.
I think from now on the vast majority of consumers will look at the n800 as say "so what, an ipod can do that AND hold 16gb of media".

I'll bet Mark S's paycheck on it! :)

The key word where you are mistaken is "substantially". That just ain't gonna happen folks, for the very reasons iball and I have clearly stated.

Very small number of potential N800 users who would jump *wholesale* to iPod Touch. And in fact, based on some posts here, those are users who would buy the N800 by mistake and sell or return it eventually. So... no real dent there, sorry.

And those who think the number one communications device maker in the world is gonna roll over because Apple introduced a cute media player are out of their league in this discussion. :p

Different markets. Different devices. Different goals. Meaningless, miniscule overlap realistically.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why such a simple thing is so difficult for some to grasp.

And that wager is for anyone. ;)

thomasdawes

09-06-2007, 04:06 PM

iball

09-06-2007, 04:14 PM

The thing o remember here is hackers are totaly attracted to the iphone and now the touch , its sexy and a challange, like the psp.. hackers are going to do things with these two products that apple never even thought of doing... the hackers are going to make these into a very very attactive device for all us n800 users.
That's nice. I'd rather have more real programmers attracted to the N800 - like they currently are - than "hackers" with sloppy code practices.
And look at all those PSP "hackers": 99% of them do nothing more than create a theme, build something in pathetic LUA code, or do a silly/stupid modification to code someone ELSE has already done (i.e. "custom firmwares"). You can count on ONE HAND the number of true PSP programmers.
Don't you dare compare the pathetic circus the PSP programming "scene" has become with what is happening with Nokia's Internet Tablets.
The two cultures, users, and market couldn't be more different.

look at the psp hackng scene, you have a smaller genera there and have pepole diong stuff with a totally locked product that are unbelievable..sony fights them every step of the way and the hackers always overcome them.
THe PSP "hacking scene" as you call it has a nice open-source SDK for it and lots of homebrew developer support to surmount any serious issues that programmers run into.
So does the N770/N800.
The iPhone/iPod Touch does NOT. And a future firmware update to those devices in the future could possibly (probably) break any "hacked" software made to run on them.

Apple knew these would be prime argets for hackers and I bet there counting on it to propell ther device to new levels.
Any company who depends upon "hackers" anything to "propel" their device to new levels doesn't deserve to be in business because it would show they have no fcuking clue how to run a business.
Apple - like Sony if you look deep enough - gives two *****s about your so-called "hackers". Sales matter, period, and "hackers" anything does NOT sell a goddamn thing in the business world.
Functionality and ease-of-use right out of the box do.

You want an example? Fine. The GP2X series of handheld devices have paltry sales numbers yet they are marketed as good for "hackers" and based upon open-source. Problem is, the hardware they went with is pathetic and they haven't figured out yet to throw wi-fi and bluetooth on the damn things.
Now, the same could be said of the N800 but the N800 has at least three things the GP2X doesn't: better word-of-mouth and reviews in the press, better hardware, and better battery-life.

Seriously, with some of the comments I've seen in here lately looks like some of you need to either go to school or go back to school because a lot of you don't know the first damn thing about Basic Business 101.

iball

09-06-2007, 04:17 PM

I know I am off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread on this... For anyone that hastily bought an iphone prior to the price drop, Apple announced that they will be giving $100.00 credit to the early adopters. Considering I'm one of the putzes that falls into that category, I am quite impressed. Yes, I still did pay more for the device, but Apple being a company for profit, they did not have to offer anything. This is a decent olive branch.

Sorry to get off topic.

Decent olive branch? You do know people have ripped apart the iPhone and done a parts pricing on them and found out that Apple is charging an unsubsidized price more than DOUBLE of what it cost to make them, right?
The only reason the price is dropping on the iPhone is due to Apple recouping their R&D and initial manufacturing costs in the first batch of sucke-um-early adopters.
Apple is basically telling you "Thanks, sucker, we made our mint off you here's a Benjamin. Now go spend it on some more of our products."

ysss

09-06-2007, 04:28 PM

So iball, according to business 101, what is the desired endgame for nokia internet tablets? and how does iphone/ipod touch relate to it, if at all?

SD69

09-06-2007, 04:32 PM

And that wager is for anyone. ;)But if Nokia cancels the IT, you don't have a paycheck, right? :p

But seriously, I agree that Nokia IT probably will not go away or at least there will be at least one more significant upgrade to it. They will play to their strengths to attempt to differentiate themselves, and will not try to be slicker or cooler in their SW development to match the iPod/iphone in that way, although there may be a nice google UI on the WiMax version. Likely candidates are increased connectivity i.e., WiMax (if Sprint doesn't stumble), 802.11n, bluetooth 2.1 and pairing improvements, etc., that Apple historically hasn't done. It will be interesting to see if and how there is an OVI tie-in. They may also speed up the next version which was probably going to be mid-to-late 2008 otherwise.

Interesting though how quickly they have become competitors - just the last 3 months. the iphone, then OVI, and now iPod touch. I know Nokia did not consider Apple to be a major competitor 12 months ago. It will be an interesting 2008, especially if Intel gets into the space with their MIDs.

The company that this might concern the most in the short term is not Nokia - it's AT&T (unless they already knew about it). Who is going to buy a iPhone (+2 yr AT&T contract) when you can get an iPod touch and your choice of phone for less? Especially if BT DUN is eventually supported.

mobiledivide

09-06-2007, 05:06 PM

So iball, according to business 101, what is the desired endgame for nokia internet tablets? and how does iphone/ipod touch relate to it, if at all?

I'm not iball and I don't know the answer but I think the N770/N800 thing was an experiment to see how open source community could work with a hardware manufacturer in reducing the traditional costs around the Nokia products. If you read Qgils and Ari's statements it seems that Nokia is quite pleased with what they were able to achieve and the costs involved in product launch and development. As for the future I think Nokias involvement in the whole MID movement with Intel etc is a good indication that they are not dropping out.

flareup

09-06-2007, 05:07 PM

Flareup, I re-read your post and I still come away with that same interpretation. Maybe I'm stupid instead of blind.

And the only time there will ever be anything "between the lines" in my posts is when I'm obviously hinting at something. Otherwise, they're meant verbatim.

ah well, with attitude like that best to add me to your ever-growing ignore list then mate!

tabletfan

09-06-2007, 05:37 PM

Off-topic, but how many people on ITT own the Nokia N-Gage? Is that a dead product or is Nokia still providing updates and support for it. I hope the IT doesn't end up like that.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 05:37 PM

Attitude?

Umm. Okay. :rolleyes:

Anyway, it amazes me the claims a few are making here regarding the N800 vs the iPod Touch. Claiming that similarities between the two will result in the N800's demise are naive at best. I think that proclamation is being driven by unfortunate experience with the tablet(s) and/or rapture with the Apple mystique. ;) Shame on Nokia for the former, kudos to Apple for the latter.

But anyone who buys either product without conducting proper research is, in my opinion, a risk to themselves. I have little respect or pity for anyone who "stumbles" into a $400 purchase for anything.

In addition, surely no one makes a buying decision on similarities between even truly competing devices-- they form their decision around the distinguishing features. The similarities are a given; those are the basic requirements. The determining factor in selecting one device over another comes down to purpose and value. I think we've hashed purpose over sufficiently and value tends to be very subjective... but the fact remains that a major part of value is the distinguishing features that will compel a consumer to hone in on his purchase.

Apologies in advance for any attitude, real or merely perceived, apparent in this post. :p

Traecer

09-06-2007, 05:43 PM

iball

09-06-2007, 06:09 PM

So iball, according to business 101, what is the desired endgame for nokia internet tablets?
To have a successful product. What Nokia's definition of "success" is anyone's guess.
Most strive to break-even by recouping R&D and manufacturing costs (game consoles follow that model) or even profit, but some use products like this to "push" the market forward. I think Nokia's endgame is to raise public awareness of the whole "Internet Tablet" thing while at the same time get valuable feedback from IT users and to watch it closely to see what folks are actually doing with the device.
I don't think they saw the whole "CarMan" thing coming though.

and how does iphone/ipod touch relate to it, if at all?
It doesn't. The only time it "relates" at all is when some uninformed jackhole makes a *****ic "comparison" and declares the iPod Touch will somehow "destroy" the N800.

heckler770

09-06-2007, 06:19 PM

Bluetooth support is scheduled for MacOS 10.5, due for release in October. I wouldn't be surprised if Bluetooth A2DP support is then added to the iPhone and iPod Touch (maybe even the Classics?) at the same time as Mac OS 10.5, along with a natty line up of Apple Bluetooth stereo headsets...

Of course, as soon as someone gets an iPod Touch it will be cracked open and the presence (or not) of a CSR (or similar) Bluetooth chip will lay this rumour to rest once and for all. :)

If the Touch does have Bluetooth support, it might become very difficult to resist making a purchase... :( I don't need it of course... I just WANT it. :)

Unofficial, but BT may be included- http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple/ipod-touch-has-bluetooth-support-296938.php

I've read that the BT in the iPhone is severely crippled and with the iP being a "closed" device, unlike the N800, I'm sure the iTouch will be similar- i.e. bt for headphone audio only. So not much there......

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to see a beautiful product like the iTouch come to market, but I still think it's a version 1.0 product and I'd wait til 2.0 before considering a purchase. Until then for me it's-

-iPod shuffle 2g for the gym and cycling
-30gb iPod vid for the car (music, tv and pod/vid casts)
-Archos 604wifi for trips (wide screen video/tv, pod/vid casts and photos w/ dig cam offloads), viewing video on the home tv (ipod harddrive is too noisy) and watching movies in bed

- and, of course, the N800 for internet/online portability and a little of all of the above (the only one I have on me all the time)

I know..... way too many toys, but that's the way I have it worked out until someone offers that one magical device :)

Cheers all!

iball

09-06-2007, 06:24 PM

Unofficial, but BT may be included- http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple/ipod-touch-has-bluetooth-support-296938.php

I've read that the BT in the iPhone is severely crippled and with the iP being a "closed" device, unlike the N800, I'm sure the iTouch will be similar- i.e. bt for headphone audio only. So not much there......

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to see a beautiful product like the iTouch come to market, but I still think it's a version 1.0 product and I'd wait til 2.0 before considering a purchase. Until then for me it's-

-iPod shuffle 2g for the gym and cycling
-30gb iPod vid for the car (music, tv and pod/vid casts)
-Archos 604wifi for trips (wide screen video/tv, pod/vid casts and photos w/ dig cam offloads), viewing video on the home tv (ipod harddrive is too noisy) and watching movies in bed

- and, of course, the N800 for internet/online portability and a little of all of the above (the only one I have on me all the time)

I know..... way too many toys, but that's the way I have it worked out until someone offers that one magical device :)

Cheers all!
I doubt BT is "hidden" in the Touch since it could lead to serious cannibalization of iPhone sales.
I'm the same way you are with my devices: Shuffle 2g for exercise, 60GB 5g iPod for car (w/Alpine iPod adapter), N95 for podcasts/weather/RSS feedreader, N800 for Exult & Ur-Quan Masters & web browsing & email-on-the-go & portable note-taking & Skype.
Right now about the only thing I use my Macbook Pro for is running XP Pro (Parallels & Bootcamp) for those few sites and applications that need it and running Ubuntu (VMware Fusion) for my Scratchbox work.

Naranek

09-06-2007, 06:31 PM

if we're boiling it down to closed vs open, of course you'll have options with open source stuff, but it won't be polished and "just work" like the close sourced stuff.

i think that's just a fact of life.

I disagree. Think about products like Firefox, Thunderbird, Kopete, K3b etc. They are all open source software that is very mature, polished and indeed just works. On OS level I have to say that I've had way better experience with Ubuntu compared to Windows XP. (Haven't tried Vista) Internet Tablet's OS & software isn't quite there yet but it doesn't mean that it's impossible.

heckler770

09-06-2007, 06:47 PM

I doubt BT is "hidden" in the Touch since it could lead to serious cannibalization of iPhone sales.
I'm the same way you are with my devices: Shuffle 2g for exercise, 60GB 5g iPod for car (w/Alpine iPod adapter), N95 for podcasts/weather/RSS feedreader, N800 for Exult & Ur-Quan Masters & web browsing & email-on-the-go & portable note-taking & Skype.
Right now about the only thing I use my Macbook Pro for is running XP Pro (Parallels & Bootcamp) for those few sites and applications that need it and running Ubuntu (VMware Fusion) for my Scratchbox work.

Funny- Loading Boot camp and xp pro on my MacBook pro is the project of the weekend for me (tired of waiting for decent games for mac :) ).

YoDude

09-06-2007, 07:00 PM

Just some observations...

First:
From what I have seen the iPod Touch is basically an iPhone with no phone.
Why all the noise now? The same arguments could have been made when the iPhone was released. (iWhatever vs. N800)

Second:
Now that Apple has dropped the price of the iPhone by $200, won't the early adopters feel stupid?
If so, what would compel anyone to buy the new iPod's now knowing that Apple might drop the price on them a month or two down the road?

It seems to me announcing the price cut on the same day as the new models was not very bright...

... unless they are sacrificing the sales of these new toys so that the can realize their stated sales goal of 10 million iPhones in the first year.

I thought the purpose of Apples phone was the convergence of two devices.

Third:
The N800 can not be marketed aggressively until at least Chinook...
Nothing finished has been developed for it yet. Even third party apps line Navicore are lacking simple supporting apps like POI loaders and such.

=DC=

09-06-2007, 07:06 PM

I've been watching this thread from the start, and I've seen some interesting points on all sides of the discussion. I'm pretty impressed with the iPod Touch, but not so impressed that I think the Nokia IT line is in any immediate danger. However, I do see this as a strong challenge for Nokia to respond to, and they had better do it quick.

Apple has made some very nice moves recently, and though it's still early in the game, Nokia has some work to do (at least here in the US) to make the game interesting again.

I'd still buy an N800 (or 770 for that matter) over an iPod Touch. There's just so much potential left in these devices to just abandon them now.

dont

09-06-2007, 07:24 PM

Apple are selling the Touch as an iPod, I think that they view it primarily as a portable music player.

Nokia pitch the N770/800 as Internet Tablets.

It seems to me that the Touch looks like a really nice PMP that can browse the Internet, but not very well because it has the wrong form factor.

The N770/N800 is a really nice Internet tablet that can also be a PMP, but not very well because it has the wrong form factor.

Aisu

09-06-2007, 09:07 PM

The IT isn't going anywhere :)

This is a music player, guys, not a general purpose mini-super-computer.

http://geekpenguin.blogspot.com/2007/09/ipod-touch.html

kenny

09-06-2007, 10:37 PM

After reading 16 pages, to me, this is the statement that sums up Nokia's position (and gives me hope for the N800 future):

"Suffice to say, bottom line, the NITs have been successful enough. That is, enough to support future development."

.
And although I personally could care less about a glitzy package, I still found this comment rather poignant:

"C'mon Nokia, put some lipstick on this pig!"
.
.
(Gee, my first post and all I did was re-quote.....)

gerbick

09-06-2007, 10:51 PM

My... oh my. I've been reading this entire thread and invariably will open myself up to being flamed like no other... but it seems like the pending commercial success of the iPod Touch - a different machine with a different purpose than the Nokia 770/N800 - but it seems like it could be a sales hit that the Nokia team would love to have.

And why don't they? Why don't Nokia want those kinds of numbers? Out of fear since the 770/N800 isn't as initially user friendly as the rather - ok, I'll say it - "dumbed down" interface of the iPod Touch?

Why not present the N800 and what not as a more mainstream product? Why not bring the aforementioned Ubuntu UI out ASAP? Why not make the 770 not as obsolete so my purchase won't seem so much in vain!?

Ok... ignore that last point. But it does seem like a lot of late 770 buyers feel jilted since that means no Skype, Microb is all messed up, and no Flash 9 player (Ok, blame Adobe)... and why not even court Microsoft for Silverlight?

The ability to expand on the Nokia internet tablet currently outshines the iPod's invariably closed architecture. But as it stands, having two machines and stopping to support one wasn't too good for their image and possible future purchases.

But as it seems, nobody here wanted the Nokia internet tablet to be a commercial success. Or am I reading that wrong?

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:19 PM

I'm going to attempt to answer gerbick's question (the overarching one) as succinctly as possible. However, I will have to dance around some touchy parts so bear with me. ;)

The 770 paved new ground. It was a risk on Nokia's part because it portended a new business model: a low-cost commercial computing device that deliberately embraced open source software.

It was unheard of.

I can't imagine any company wanting to invest much in an unproven device and market. Far better to manufacture a number small enough to minimize costs but large enough to create a reliable, robust data set from which to draw and analyze.

Let this sink in.

It would behoove any such same company to aggressively analyze said data so that, if the test device proved its worthiness, a follow-up could come quickly on its heels. A more polished, performance-enhanced follow-up.

Although that follow-up would be a little more mature, keep in mind its development cycle would overlap the market test device's-- meaning not all lessons learned could be processed in time. Still, there was a *potential* new market to be captured and if the data from both initial devices demonstrated that market's validity, and the ability to fulfill a new need (read: desire), then certainly any respectable company would want to own that market-- just as Apple owns the portable MP3 player market.

I've used the chicken-and-egg scenario to describe the N800 and its ecosystem and that's a good one I think. Nokia could have waited until a decent wifi infrastructure was in place in key markets before moving, but wouldn't a competitor take advantage of such hesitance? So the 770 and N800 emerged into an immature ecosystem, outfitted with stopgap measures such as bluetooth phone-pairing to deal with the dearth of ubiquitous wifi.

Now, all the tablets had to do was gain *enough* traction in order to rationalize further support and development of the platform. So who defines enough? Well, it isn't this community. ;) That's of course Nokia's decision. The fact that more devices are coming (a la Sprint/Wimax) indicates a strong belief that there IS a future for these tablets.

That's despite the hardware problems. Despite the software problems. Despite the apparent poor sales.

A lot of wannabe consumer electronics pundits with a failure to grasp and process context rabidly leap to proclaim the death of these devices every time something even remotely similar comes out. It wasn't just the iPod Touch-- the iPhone was supposed to kill it, too... along with a whole host of products with a related form factor and purpose, some of which are still vaporware.

The fact is the Nokia Internet Tablet isn't going to die because Apple came out with a nifty new media player. That is one aspect of the NIT's broad offering. The NITs are Long Tail products with a completely different intent and goal in mind. I doubt many people will jog with an N800 tucked into a sweat band, as they might with the Touch. Conversely, I can't see anyone playing Flash videos on their iPod. That contrast could go on and on but surely any reasonable person gets the picture.

Nokia has exhibited patience with the NITs progress, which should speak volumes. The devices may not be the commercial success that iPod Touchs will be in the immediate future, but then, the iPod already has a robust ecosystem, doesn't it? It doesn't have the same hurdles to overcome. It isn't the same device. Give the NITs a few years, though, and I'm betting they take off. And Nokia has already admitted to a mistake in the 770/N800 transition, one that won't be repeated.

Patience, folks. Curb your pessimism. There is more to come.

anderbr

09-06-2007, 11:32 PM

....
Patience, folks. Curb your pessimism. There is more to come.

You been spending too much time in Europe? On this side of the pond we're a sound-bite loving, day-trading, IM-addicted, oooh isn't that shiny!, adult-ADD bunch of folks. We want ( no demand ) it all and want it yesterday!!

Hurry Hurry Hurry!!:D

iball

09-06-2007, 11:35 PM

I'm going to attempt to answer gerbick's question (the overarching one) as succinctly as possible. However, I will have to dance around some touchy parts so bear with me. ;)

[The rest deleted for space]

Exactly! I get that, the problem is that now you're dealing with the "we want it now" mentality.
Some people don't understand that these things take time.
But Nokia also needs to understand one thing: don't take my "kindness" towards their long-interval info/product releases for being "stupid".
More effort on their part to actually keep those of us who are really into their Internet Tablet line a little better informed as to what's going on in the future would be greatly appreciated.
In other words Nokia, I know Apple. I own Apple products. You're no Apple.
So stop trying to ACT like Apple when it comes to your "flagship stores" and information pertaining to the IT line.
You'll lose our loyalty most ricky-tick that way and see a lot of folks jumping ship for the future Intel MIDs.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:38 PM

Agreed iball.

And andrbr? I fight ADHD everyday (mine and my son's :D). But those damned Europeans are teaching me patience whether I like it or not!

iball

09-06-2007, 11:40 PM

Agreed iball.

And andrbr? I fight ADHD everyday (mine and my son's :D). But those damned Europeans are teaching me patience whether I like it or not!

Odd. I must be the only American left who never had ADHD.
Of course, having lived in Germany for the last 13 years helps one learn to slow down.

gerbick

09-06-2007, 11:46 PM

Patience, folks. Curb your pessimism. There is more to come.

I'm not being pessimistic at all. I'd love for my internet tablet (nokia 770) to remain supported and me... I'd rather be happy with an expandable gadget with a great screen.

Texrat

09-06-2007, 11:50 PM

That was a general chiding and not meant for you, gerbick... sorry for not making that clear.

lsatblu

09-07-2007, 12:14 AM

I don't know..the iPod Touch looks nice but I am not a fan of carrying too many devices around. That is one reason I don't understand why people buy MP3 players. I have my Nokia 770 and Cingular 8525. Even though I love my 770, it is just so much easier to carry one device. My 8525 can do pretty much everything my 770 can, but it has a smaller screen. I with I could get more use out of my 770.

The iPhones and the iPod Touch have really nice looking operating systems which I wish could be run on my 8525 and 770. But I like the freedom of putting what I want on my device.

Honestly I don't see why anyone would pick the Touch over the iPhone unless you can not afford the iPhone, afford the monthly payment or can not get a contract with At&t..

The 770 and 800 both beat the Apple products with there nice screens though. Nothing compares to it.

I am really hoping the next device from Nokia can be used as an internet tablet and phone because I like having an all in one device..which is why I don't use my 770 as much as I want to. I also hope it has a really pretty OS and large touch screen. A slide down keyboard wouldn't hurt either.

gerbick

09-07-2007, 12:21 AM

That was a general chiding and not meant for you, gerbick... sorry for not making that clear.

No probs. Just understand though... as a tinkerer and a two time purchaser of the 770... I could easily end up being seen as pessimistic.

Which, quite honestly is about to happen and it has nothing to do with the iPod Touch. I just feel like I'm part of Nokia's test lab without any regard to what I'd like to honestly see in a product.

But thank goodness the community is active and basically has given me reasons to stay happy.

Texrat

09-07-2007, 12:25 AM

As a gadget freak I think the iPhone is cool. Same for the new iPods. I just wonder how much of a market they can have though. Remember, there's no touch feedback from a flat touchscreen, so you have to at least occasionally glance at that iPod Touch to "home" yourself.

But I envision future touchscreens that incorporate piezo and related effects. Imagine that the edges of screen icons have 3d ridges raised automatically around them. Imagine force feedback from a touchscreen (!). I'm betting someone develops those. THAT will be something.

Fidibus

09-07-2007, 12:44 AM

Estimate

future developments will cost maximally 200 € // maximum weight 150g // Screen = 800x480 // Flash >= 16 GB // WLAN & UMTS // Open API // very simple control surface

priority 1 = user friendly, user friendly, user friendly, user friendly

priority 2 = absolutely simple and stable installation (applikation)

priority 3 = Browser & Flash state of art & Google Apps (search, email, pm, docs, maps)

priority 4 = Photos, Video, Navi, Skype

too many challenges for Nokia and Linux ????

ysss

09-07-2007, 12:49 AM

I love my N800.

I respect the open source movement, we need it to bring some balance into the system. The development model is very effective for certain class of programs and standards and\but it usually ends up commoditizing the resulting product.

Right now I see the Nokia Internet Tablet as the ultimate mobile toy for the Linux geeks. I think that is sound from the concept (we have an open platform based on linux) to the implementation (you need or will acquire some familiarity with Linux as you use the tablet to its potential) and to the statistisc (I'm pretty sure this is reflected in the consumer demographic, if there's such data available somewhere).

Does any of the above make good business for Nokia? Not right now.
To me, this just seem like an inexpensive experiment in incubating an open platform for future wireless\wimax Nokias.

I think both Nokia and Apple are aiming for the almost exact specific market: next generation mobile digital content delivery platform. Nokia just looking to assist in creating the standard and hopefully supply majority of the hardware, while Apple is being more ambitious with their plans and orchestrating (+ profiting from) more components of their end-to-end solution. Apple deals with the content suppliers (music, video, and soon programs and games), having the content delivery mechanism themselves (iTunes store), and even long term partnerships with the network providers (AT&T, Starbucks).

Strategically, Apple is in such a stronger position than Nokia to control their ecosystem. And as long as they create mutually beneficial conditions in their solution. Here are some interesting possibilities:

- Now they've a content-specific wifi-deal with Starbucks on potentially 4800 hotspots across the U.S. This will only grow larger. Imagine similar deals with 7-11s, Gas stations, Walmarts, etc. (Why on earth would they want this? My next point would be the reason).

- iTunes shop as your iWallet. Use it to pay for location based services (Gas, 7-11 goods, etc).

- When they have sufficient coverage (read: deals) for 'near-free' wifi hotspots, the VOIP client will finally be introduced to the platform. Whether they partner with Skype ($0.05/minute premium maybe?) or they launch their own.

In the meanwhile, the product is quite sellable as-is masking as a multimedia player. It works well as audio video player, browser and digital photo album.

Linear2202

09-07-2007, 12:58 AM

I too have an 8525 and a 770 and am feeling slighted by the lack of continued development of the 770's OS. I too am really hoping to like my 770 more than I do and am trying hard to get more use out of it.
The touch is an interesting device to me, but we shall see. I'd like to see what the hacker community can do with applications.
I don't see the tablet market declining much with this touch release. People I mention mine to have never heard of it (Internet tablet).

thomasdawes

09-07-2007, 01:34 AM

tso

09-07-2007, 02:48 AM

Odd. I must be the only American left who never had ADHD.
Of course, having lived in Germany for the last 13 years helps one learn to slow down.

could it be all the sugar in the food?

Drewvt

09-07-2007, 07:26 AM

I have a 770, a 4thG iPod (30gb 'photo') and a Macbook. Going by that information, you might assume that I'm open to Apple's new offerings, but lemme tell you, every one of the new iPods is wrong for me.

The Touch has a screen I refuse to do any surfing or reading on, at that size and resolution. Nor does 16gb fit enough of my music. The iPod classic is excessively large (80gb? I'll never fill half) and the screen is still inadequate for movies, which makes it a waste (i don't need that much real estate just to scroll thru my songs). The nano is redundant if you have a real iPod.

When my current iPod breaks, I'll go looking for a deal on an old iPod (just saw one on sale for $150. I've come to realize that even a color screen on an iPod is a waste, at least for me, because I turn off the backlight the entire time to save the battery, and in that state song names are perfectly readable but you can hardly tell it's a color screen. If you just want to play 30gb of music, what does it matter?).

=DC=

09-07-2007, 07:26 AM

Okay, let's go back...

I purchased my 770 in Jan. 2005 with simple expectations of using it as a portable Internet browsing device with some other nifty features such as audio/video, and maybe a handful of community created apps. To my pleasant surprise, so much more was made possible in a very short time. VNC, Canola, tons of games, several open source apps I never thought would run on the little device, and of course multiple firmware updates that improved not only functionality, but overall appearance of the interface.

Now, I don't own an N800, but I've seen similar improvements, updates, and growing number of new apps make their way to that device as well. And that's after the "branch off" from the 2006 OS 770 users have come to know. Such a break in OS compatibility in any other device would kill a product line so fast it would make your head spin, but for some reason (I still can't figure that one out) people continued buying the tablets, and possibly an increase in sales as a whole.

I think Nokia knows quite well what they are doing in this space, and have learned very valuable lessons from these two devices. Knowing what I know now, I expect the same growth and maturity of the third device, and that is what keeps me holding on to the Internet Tablet idea.

Sure, Nokia support for the 770 has stopped, but it still serves my needs just as well as it did the day I bought it (sometimes even more so). I didn't buy an N800 because I expected less support for it, but it has exceeded my expectations tremendously. As for Apple iPhone/iPod Touch, I don't see the same growth, development, and maturity happening any time soon (at least not as fast as the tablets).

Sorry for the supper long post. Just trying to give this thread some more perspective and reading material. ;)

thomasdawes

09-07-2007, 09:24 AM

I took the n800 out of the case i keep it in today. This is great piece of consumer electronics acheivement. It has solid build, a beautiful screen and a removeable battery.
Nokia has nothing to be ashamed of.

neubie

09-07-2007, 10:01 AM

Er... back more to the original topic. The Touch looks very nice- I even experienced a brief urge to get one because (I guess) it's New and Shiny.

Then reality- it has a smaller screen size and same resolution as a Palm TX and with a much more limited set of software!

The N800 has the screen size and resolution to make the device much more useful... if the software was there! (And a transflective display really wouldn't hurt, either.)

I don't know. To me, (a non-hacker) the new Ipaq 210 currently looks like the most useful of the bunch. But maybe I should just keep limping along for another 6 months and see what the Intel MIDs actually do....

hircus

09-07-2007, 11:28 AM

I still think that if the N800 had a real contact/calendar syncing application, it would have gained better traction.

GPE Calendar + Erminig + Google Calendar! Unfortunately, I've not seen a contact sync application (preferably opensync-based so I can sync with my Linux desktop).

heckler770

09-07-2007, 11:54 AM

One thing that has been mentioned briefly and must be kept in mind- especially by those wondering whether to buy an iTouch or N800 or both- is why iPods sell so well in a market flooded with mp3/music playing devices (do you own anything that runs on batteries and doesn't play mp3s??). It's a lifestyle product now. It's simple, for the the most part, cheap enough to own a couple different flavors and it has the Starbuck's effect- you know exactly what you're going to get and how it will work no matter what you buy and where you buy it.

I totally agree with Apples decision to keep the iPhone/Touch "closed" for the time being. I don't know how much time I've spent in the past trying to figure out which 3rd party, beta app just borked whatever Palm/Clie/WinMobile device I was using at the time (although that WAS part of the fun). The average consumer doesn't want to spend time either fiddling on their own or with tech support trying to figure out why the screen freezes after installing that last [Nanny-Cam/World Clock Scheduling app] ;)

For me the beauty of the 770, and now N800 is what could be. It's been like getting one of those unraveling party favors.

The iTouch will take PMP's to the masses, but enthusiasts will always want to add their own personality.

My impression is that Nokia started with the bare essentials and watched to see what would happen. Those who got the concept were the ones Nokia planned on selling the device to. I love this and have waited to find apps to support (verbally or financial).

Traecer

09-07-2007, 12:06 PM

Don't be so quick to call the ipod touch a success. Look at all the competition itt has from its own family... nano, classic, iphone... so many choices would confuse a consumer.
still too early to tell.

Well, Apple really wants to sell you the Touch; the Classic is only around for a specific (loyal) iPod niche, and the Touch is the future. This was even mentioned in one of the Mac-centric podcasts I listen too; Jobs sort of brushed off the Classic intro compared to the Nano and Touch intros. Of course, there weren't that many changes, compared to 2 basically completely new products. There's a certain niche of MP3 player user that wants to carry their entire music library with them all the time, and flash memory still hasn't advanced to the point it can offer sufficient capacity to service these hardcore users. These people have been consistent buyers of the hard drive-based iPod over the Nano, and Apple thinks there's enough of a market there to keep an iPod around for them, even though their future drive is toward more iPhone/Touch-like devices running OS X. That's why there's a price overlap between the Classic and Touch. Remove the Classic, and their price structure is pretty logical: $50 between the 2 Nanos, $100 between the Touches and the iPhone.

iball

09-07-2007, 12:19 PM

Actually, the N800 is the first device that actually made me go out and buy VMware Fusion in order to load up Ubuntu on my Macbook Pro just to port things over to it.
My Palm devices years ago never did that. My cell phones (n80i, N95, 6260, etc.) never did that.
Not even my Sharp Zaurus 5500 did that and it was Linux-based as well!
But the combination of free SDK, built-in wi-fi and bluetooth, and dual SDHC slots was just too much to resist.
I get this device and use it almost constantly at home. It really is my new "web browser and news reader" device.
Especially when I'm using the MBP to recompile apps for it...

hircus

09-07-2007, 03:14 PM

Using mobile phone with the N800 is really simple task. I got unlimited 3G/HSDPA data plan (costs 10 euros per month...)

Another reminder of how broken the monopolistic US cellular market is. Cheapest data plan here is about $30 a month, and that's not unlimited. Even my parents' HDSPA data plan in Indonesia is cheaper! ($20 total, bandwith caps, no included minutes for voice calls)

Texrat

09-08-2007, 11:12 PM

A comment on engadget that makes a LOT of sense:

eas @ Jul 11th 2007 4:06PM
Nokia has to tread lightly with respect to an open WiFi enabled cellular device that can run VoIP apps. Cell carriers aren't going to be in love with such a device, and Nokia has a hell of a lot of existing business (both handsets and network infrastructure) that could be at risk if they piss them off. The companion device approach gives them more room to manouver. If they can rely on early adopters to help them while the polish the feature set and build a software ecosystem, then they'll be in a much stronger position. Especially since now the iPhone probably has carriers looking for leverage in negotiating with Apple.

Apple could play hardball with carriers regarding various aspects of the iPhone, to the extent they did, because they didn't have existing business with the carriers that was at risk.

http://cellphones.engadget.com/2007/07/10/is-this-the-successor-to-the-nokia-n800/

iball

09-08-2007, 11:15 PM

A comment on engadget that makes a LOT of sense:

http://cellphones.engadget.com/2007/07/10/is-this-the-successor-to-the-nokia-n800/

Oooooo....BURN!

I know that wasn't your intent but it's funny nonetheless

Milhouse

09-08-2007, 11:44 PM

I read that the N95 is selling extremely well - in the Nokia Q2 (http://www.intomobile.com/2007/08/02/nokia-q2-results-are-out-enterprise-turns-a-profit-market-share-increases-and-over-100-million-units-shipped.html) results, it states that 1.5 million N95s were sold in Q2. That's over 10 N95 phones sold per minute for three straight months! Pretty good demand, similar or better than the iPhone (1m in 3 months, albeit US-only). Then you have the E65 selling 1m in 3 months, and 25% of sales in India (http://www.intomobile.com/2007/09/05/think-india-is-still-an-emerging-market-25-of-nokias-sales-in-that-region-are-from-e-and-n-series-devices-flagship-store-to-open-in-mumbai.html) (a huge market) are for E and N-series phones.

And that's how Nokia can gain the upper hand with the service providers, by having the devices that consumers demand - then see if the service providers refuse to sell Nokia phones. Sure, there'll be some pain along the way, but this is what Nokia needs to do - get tough with the service providers and stop them dictating the terms, stop them controlling access to content and stop them from deleting functionality from phones which impairs the overall experience.

It's a shame that Nokia, Motorola, Samsung and SonyEricsson etc. can't get together and agree a united strategy to rest power from the service providers, although that might have questionable legal implications. :)

One day - sooner rather than later - the service providers will realise their purpose is to provide and maintain the network, and nothing more.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 02:29 AM

iball

09-09-2007, 02:55 AM

Nokia tried that in the US, Milhouse. The other phone providers took advantage instead of realizing that approach was in their favor as well. Or maybe realized it but were too fearful to rebel also. Either way, it's back to square one for Nokia in the US market.

Nokia actually entered the U.S. market? Odd, I'm not seeing any Nokia phone commercials on TV like I see for the Helio, iPhone, etc.
While it's nice to have not one but TWO [snicker] "flagship" stores in the U.S. they aren't going to be worth a damn if Nokia doesn't get off their *** and ADVERTISE THEIR PRODUCTS IN THE MARKETS THEY HAVE STORES IN.

Seriously, find the Finnish guy in charge of U.S. marketing/advertising and kick him in the nuts.
Repeatedly. Many times. Until he dies horribly.
Then hire someone who at least has an inkling of what to do.
I've come to the realization today that talking "nice" about Nokia and offering them sound advice isn't working so we all just need to start kicking every Nokia employee we meet in the jimmy until they finally get a phucking clue.
Sometimes violence is the answer.

Milhouse

09-09-2007, 03:28 AM

I've also come to the conclusion that sticking native Finnish speakers in front of English speaking audiences with the intention of announcing the latest gadgets and technologies just doesn't work - the presentations (and I've watched a few, believe me) lack charisma and any shred of enthusiasm. This isn't their fault, it's probably lost in the translation (and they're doing a better job than I could ever hope to achieve in reverse) but the fact of the matter is that it simply doesn't work as well as their competitors.

Nokia - hire some decent presenters for Christ's sake, you'd save a fortune in advertising if you only achieved 10% of the media coverage generated by a single Steve Jobs demonstration.

ragnar

09-09-2007, 04:43 AM

Well, Apple really wants to sell you the Touch; the Classic is only around for a specific (loyal) iPod niche, and the Touch is the future. This was even mentioned in one of the Mac-centric podcasts I listen too; Jobs sort of brushed off the Classic intro compared to the Nano and Touch intros. Of course, there weren't that many changes, compared to 2 basically completely new products. There's a certain niche of MP3 player user that wants to carry their entire music library with them all the time, and flash memory still hasn't advanced to the point it can offer sufficient capacity to service these hardcore users.

I'm considering to buy a new iPod for my music - since the old one breaks down all the time with strange "1418" error messages that Apple denies are any real problem - but I wouldn't consider the Touch. I want a great mp3 device.

Specifically:
- Small and pocketable. Nano is great, Classic somewhat acceptable. Touch is rather brickish.
- Easy to use, under different conditions. Adjust volume, change to the next track. Now this is the biggest reason why Touch is a no-no. I can press "next track" blind, with the ipod in my pocket, as well as adjust the volume. Try doing that with a touch screen.
- Plenty of storage space for a reasonable price. Classic is great, Nano and Touch ... Well, I want 40 gigabytes at least for about half of my music library.

I'm sure the Touch will sell reasonably well, but I doubt that these people really think too much about the fact that it's simply worse to use as a mobile mp3 player than the Classic or the Nano. Touch screens aren't the holy grail for everything in the world.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 05:02 AM

Touch screens aren't the holy grail for everything in the world.

Bingo. I can't wait until all of these Touches are out in the wild and people realize they have to LOOK at the screen to see where they're at.

Give me the wheels, buttons and other hardware doodads, thanks.

gerbick

09-09-2007, 11:49 AM

You're by yourself on that one. A touch screen is what's essential on the Nokia Internet Tablet... it's good to have on the iPod as well... just like it's great to have on the iPhone.

What's being swayed around too much in this thread is personal opinion, imho. Apple has a commercial hit on their hands. It will sell well within their lineup of products. NAND Memory and touch screen will be their answer to the people that want iPhone-ish tech but not unhappy with their phone.

For casual users, it's wifi abilities will be enough to whip out and use at a hotspot. I personally need a bit more - I use Pidgin, among other things a bit much (Nokia 770 user here, so Skype is a wet-dream) - and my access to multiple POP3 accounts is stellar on my internet tablet.

But honestly? Nokia isn't marketing in the US at all. The iPod Touch will sell in numbers that will make it more of a mainstream success. And if anything, Linux for the masses has been proven to not be as universal as it can be. Things have to be dumbed down and "just work" in order for it to be a commercial success.

I personally need root access. But I wish that Nokia would build a button less Internet Tablet... practical? Perhaps not. But it'd be a bit sleeker than the "retro styling" on the N800. And I'm one of the few that's happy with the 770's styling. It's sorta like the Commodore 64 of styling that does it for me.

Oh... and this...

Bingo. I can't wait until all of these Touches are out in the wild and people realize they have to LOOK at the screen to see where they're at.
Moot point. You have to look at your Internet Tablet in order to use it too. Only volume and full-screen and navigation (something you have to notice while looking at it) work well... and only one of them is something you can do without looking at it on the Nokia IT's.

I use my Internet Tablet. So that means I will look at it while using it. I turn my iPod on, set shuffle, lock the controls, slip it into a case, and walk with it.

The iPod Touch will be used the same way by me. I'm now waiting for the hackers to get a chance with it. Seems like the iPhone hacks will work on the iPod Touch as well.

namtastic

09-09-2007, 01:49 PM

Bingo. I can't wait until all of these Touches are out in the wild and people realize they have to LOOK at the screen to see where they're at.

Give me the wheels, buttons and other hardware doodads, thanks.

Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why the touch controls Apple added to the 3G were removed for the Click Wheel in the 4G. Believe me, I've owned both. Of course, if they had announced a remote for the iPod touch, that would have helped greatly.

Note: it's the same reason why I don't use the Nokia as a primary media device -- usability demands that *some* actions are buttons for speed and accessibility in tasks. When I go out with my iPod, I'm holding it in my hand or in my pocket, thumb on the wheel, unconsciously adjusting volume levels, skipping back and forth, pausing to hear an announcement on the train, etc. all without looking at it. The N800 design just isn't as specialized for media, from the lack of a hardware media controls that work regardless of foreground app to smaller bumps like the unfortunate distinction between system volume and media player volumes.

[Edited: corrected the whole 3G-4G thing]

namtastic

09-09-2007, 02:21 PM

Nokia tried that in the US, Milhouse. The other phone providers took advantage instead of realizing that approach was in their favor as well. Or maybe realized it but were too fearful to rebel also. Either way, it's back to square one for Nokia in the US market.

Yep. The American market is just too different. Not enough carrier variety/competition, GSM not ubiquitous enough, too many 2-year contracts, no end-user SIM market, etc. etc. If you can't play nice with the carriers to get your handsets into the stores and into official channels, you're selling to the hardcore minority only that know how to support themselves.

To rebel is to take a beating to your bottom line and leave a nice big gap for another manufacturer to fill. Only regulation will solve this, and good luck beating those lobbyists.

Now... an iPhone designed as an unlocked phone might have been the breakout mass-market sensation that finally got citizens to care about the issue -- they definitely had the public momentum to do so. But they went with AT&T exclusivity because they needed them for features and support and that's exactly why networks are so annoyingly powerful in this business.

DrMurko

09-09-2007, 03:37 PM

And now for something completely different:
The main reason why the N800 will trump the iPod Touch:
When browsing, the ability to have the option to "Save picture"
:D

heckler770

09-09-2007, 04:35 PM

And now for something completely different:
The main reason why the N800 will trump the iPod Touch:
When browsing, the ability to have the option to "Save picture"
:D
Shows it has a real browser. :)

Milhouse

09-09-2007, 04:51 PM

Now... an iPhone designed as an unlocked phone might have been the breakout mass-market sensation that finally got citizens to care about the issue -- they definitely had the public momentum to do so. But they went with AT&T exclusivity because they needed them for features and support and that's exactly why networks are so annoyingly powerful in this business.

No, they went with AT&T exclusivety because anaylsts are conservatively predicting (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/07/19/analyst_weighs_in_on_apples_rev_share_arrangement_ with_att.html) that Apple receives between $3 and $11 per month per subscriber from AT&T... Apple wouldn't be able to receive such fees if the phones were SIM free and unlocked, and Apple only receive the larger fee if customers switch to AT&T in order to obtain the iPhone (hence the exclusivety).

Apple have the product and the marketing which allows them to dictate their own terms to the network operators. They're repeating this story across Europe now, and will become a major global force in telecommunications in the future. The iPhone is their new mobile platform, it's a total money spinner, they'll earn far more income than Nokia or the others ever could on each phone, and the phones will only get better.

In addition to that, the iPhone platform is compatible with the iPod Touch, ensuring that developers will have a vast target audience for their applications, ensuring development snowballs. The closed nature of the devices is an issue right now, but I'm sure that will change in time, one way or another.

Rebski

09-09-2007, 05:21 PM

Who knows, Apple might even find it a logical step to introduce an iPod Touch Plus with a 5" 800 x 480 screen, built in microphone and speakers. A familiar form factor to most here, I am sure

andymulhearn

09-09-2007, 05:38 PM

I've read most of this thread and to be honest can see both sides of the argument - I'm a Macbook and N800/N770 owner - but from what I've been seeing I think Nokia have a bigger problem on their minds than the iPod Touch.

Over the last year the number of Nokia phones I see out and about has dropped dramatically and most people now seem to be using Sony Ericsson. I switched to the K800i, having been very dissatisfied with an N70 and moved to samsung. The rest of my family had moved long before me.

For me S60 killed the attraction of Nokia phones. The N70 was a truly atrocious phone, the N73 marginally better and the N95 is about the first S60 I've seen that has acceptable performance.

The Touch vs N800 argument is just a minor part of the problem.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 05:48 PM

Moot point. You have to look at your Internet Tablet in order to use it too. Only volume and full-screen and navigation (something you have to notice while looking at it) work well... and only one of them is something you can do without looking at it on the Nokia IT's.

Not moot at all. Again: DIFFERENT CORE USES. For the life of me I cannot see why that's so difficult to grasp. But I've already belabored it to death. No reason to drag out the jogging/reading example again.

I realize the Touchs and iPhones will be hugely popular and successful by Apple's standards (the iPhone possible less so based on current sales rates). But I still believe a lot of the euphoria will wear off once the coolness/practicality ration gets closer to reality than hype. The latter is what leads to the ridiculous "these things will totally kill Nokia's products" claims, and THAT is what I'm taking issue with in this thread.

Nokia is not going to roll over and die for Apple, folks.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 05:52 PM

Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why the touch controls Apple added to the 4G were removed for the Click Wheel in the 5G. Believe me, I've owned both. Of course, if they had announced a remote for the iPod touch, that would have helped greatly..

Ooo, great idea! A little key fob-sized thing or even a remote headset that uses bluetooth to control the iPod Touch and--

oops.

Milhouse

09-09-2007, 05:56 PM

Who knows, Apple might even find it a logical step to introduce an iPod Touch Plus with a 5" 800 x 480 screen, built in microphone and speakers. A familiar form factor to most here, I am sure

That will be next years model, along with 32GB flash memory! The price of the existing models will be reduced so that the the $399 price point is still maintained. :) Speakers and microphone are over rated... that's what Bluetooth is for. :)

Rebski

09-09-2007, 06:19 PM

Speakers and microphone are over rated

I am sure you are right, I was just thinking in terms of voip and video chat. The built in items on the n800 make for a very convenient experience.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 06:34 PM

That will be next years model, along with 32GB flash memory! The price of the existing models will be reduced so that the the $399 price point is still maintained. :) Speakers and microphone are over rated... that's what Bluetooth is for. :)

You know, seriously: if Apple did something like that (and they well may), THEN many of my current arguments fail. Until then, you guys are really reaching with these "exact same market segment" claims. :p

namtastic

09-09-2007, 07:06 PM

No, they went with AT&T exclusivety because anaylsts are conservatively predicting (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/07/19/analyst_weighs_in_on_apples_rev_share_arrangement_ with_att.html) that Apple receives between $3 and $11 per month per subscriber from AT&T.

Ah, you're right, I blanked on that arrangement. Thanks for pointing that out.

Just goes to show that Apple is still a business, no matter how pretty their devices are.

gerbick

09-09-2007, 07:31 PM

Not moot at all.

WRONG. You said something about how you had to look at the Apple iPod Touch in order to use it.

Are you honestly saying that you don't have to look at an internet tablet!?

Your statement about that was moot. You have to look at both of them. It's that simple. I don't see why you can't grasp that.

Bringing up random points about things that are actually similar in the both of them is quite a stupid endeavor. I don't care who you know, what you know... read what I'm saying in the simple English I'm using above.

You touch the touchscreen on the iPod Touch. You use a stylus or you touch the touchscreen on the Nokia internet tablet.

At the base of that comparison, it's the very same darn thing. I triple dog dare you to say otherwise. Nokia's claim in this whole thread has been the screen... which is also a touch screen.

Bingo. I can't wait until all of these Touches are out in the wild and people realize they have to LOOK at the screen to see where they're at.

Give me the wheels, buttons and other hardware doodads, thanks.
That's what you said. If you want wheels, buttons and other hardware doodads, then even the Nokia internet tablet is wrong for you. It has a touch screen... right?

And since you seem to think that you've stated the same thing over and over, here's the problem.

I have a Nokia 770. It's my second one. I'm happy with it.

Nokia could have had a better product out by now instead of having it compared foolishly to the Apple iPod Touch. A properly placed product would not have to endure stupid comparisons as such. I didn't see UMPC comparisons to the iPod Touch... do you?

No. Because the UMPC is an understood product. Nokia released this out into the world and the hackers, early adopters, and other esoteric and notoriously closed groups that don't communicate to the rest of the non-technical world all too well, as the group(s) that would explain what the Nokia internet tablet truly was.

And the communication department/definition of what an internet tablet is quite honestly a failure. I'd say that it's almost relegated to early adopter Linux scoffery in most cases - if you remember that. Simply put, either you know what it is... or you don't. And that's just very sad for the Nokia products. They're wonderful to me. The iPod Touch is a totally different sector.

Again, it's all laid out in plain English. Don't twist my words for some other agenda.

Nokia is not going to roll over and die for Apple, folks.
I've never suggested that. I just hope that Nokia makes up for the wasted time between the Nokia N800 and the iPod Touch. They could have properly defined a segment and they didn't. People want a PDA, or they want a iPod with wifi/bluetooth, or they seem to want a Linux handheld that's so entirely hackable that they can make it into a laptop replacement... and it could have been more definite than it is right now.

That's my take, flame/destroy/misunderstand as you wish. Simple English was utilized. Promise :)

Texrat

09-09-2007, 08:34 PM

WRONG. You said something about how you had to look at the Apple iPod Touch in order to use it.

Are you honestly saying that you don't have to look at an internet tablet!?

Your statement about that was moot. You have to look at both of them. It's that simple. I don't see why you can't grasp that.

Bringing up random points about things that are actually similar in the both of them is quite a stupid endeavor. I don't care who you know, what you know... read what I'm saying in the simple English I'm using above.

You touch the touchscreen on the iPod Touch. You use a stylus or you touch the touchscreen on the Nokia internet tablet.

At the base of that comparison, it's the very same darn thing. I triple dog dare you to say otherwise. Nokia's claim in this whole thread has been the screen... which is also a touch screen.

That's what you said. If you want wheels, buttons and other hardware doodads, then even the Nokia internet tablet is wrong for you. It has a touch screen... right?

And since you seem to think that you've stated the same thing over and over, here's the problem.

I have a Nokia 770. It's my second one. I'm happy with it.

Nokia could have had a better product out by now instead of having it compared foolishly to the Apple iPod Touch. A properly placed product would not have to endure stupid comparisons as such. I didn't see UMPC comparisons to the iPod Touch... do you?

No. Because the UMPC is an understood product. Nokia released this out into the world and the hackers, early adopters, and other esoteric and notoriously closed groups that don't communicate to the rest of the non-technical world all too well, as the group(s) that would explain what the Nokia internet tablet truly was.

And the communication department/definition of what an internet tablet is quite honestly a failure. I'd say that it's almost relegated to early adopter Linux scoffery in most cases - if you remember that. Simply put, either you know what it is... or you don't. And that's just very sad for the Nokia products. They're wonderful to me. The iPod Touch is a totally different sector.

Again, it's all laid out in plain English. Don't twist my words for some other agenda.

I've never suggested that. I just hope that Nokia makes up for the wasted time between the Nokia N800 and the iPod Touch. They could have properly defined a segment and they didn't. People want a PDA, or they want a iPod with wifi/bluetooth, or they seem to want a Linux handheld that's so entirely hackable that they can make it into a laptop replacement... and it could have been more definite than it is right now.

That's my take, flame/destroy/misunderstand as you wish. Simple English was utilized. Promise :)

Holy cow what a disingenuous load. Ironic too. Oh, except for the "The iPod Touch is a totally different sector" part. Nice work on that one.

Again, I believe I've explained my arguments well enough up to this point, and they're readily available in this and 1 or 2 other threads. I'm not gonna further waste my time or yours dancing with any axles. You are entitled to your assessment just as I am entitled to mine. I don't feel any overwhelming desire to disabuse anyone of their notions, however misguided or context-ignorant they may be... I was simply trying to introduce balance to a ridiculously lopsided "debate". If I failed, oh well. It's just the Internet. :D

gerbick

09-09-2007, 08:46 PM

Disingenuous? You're either delusional or regard yourself too highly.

I'll be simple. I said it in the beginning, I've repeated it, and I'm doing it one last time here.

iPod Touch != Nokia 770/N800

It's that simple. I'm not even arguing with you. However you pulled out the whole "touchscreens have to be looked at" and that's quite possibly the most inane thing I've ever read.

Touchscreens have to be looked at to be used. Seriously... who didn't know that?

There's no need for balance in a non-debate to begin with. But your point about the touchscreens was about as moot as saying that a phone makes phone calls.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 08:57 PM

The discussion here has been larger than your contributions, gerbick, and mine. I have been taking that into consideration.

As for the "touchscreens have to be looked at to be used", such an obvious yet simultaneously inane statement completely ignores the context of my related comments. I just don't see any sense in continuing to explain that given your stubborn resistance to considering someone else's viewpoint. You can call that chickening out if it boosts your ego. :D

Speaking of which, if you're simply looking for a win in an important internet argument, then here it is: you win. Ain't I sweet?

gerbick

09-09-2007, 09:08 PM

Yay. I won the Special Olympics.

Shrugs. Oh well. Per usual, scoffery wins and my patience loses. Stating the obvious is a waste of time. Real life or online. Continue with the display of massive misunderstanding.

Texrat

09-09-2007, 09:09 PM

There's just no gratitude any more.

gerbick

09-09-2007, 09:20 PM

And hopefully a non-debate ends.

Back to my whole original point. The two are in separate sectors.

...but it seems like the pending commercial success of the iPod Touch - a different machine with a different purpose than the Nokia 770/N800 - but it seems like it could be a sales hit that the Nokia team would love to have.
As it stands, perhaps this will push the N800 successor to be something more commercial and widely accepted.

With that said... let's wait and see.

iball

09-09-2007, 09:34 PM

gerbick

09-09-2007, 09:59 PM

Odd....I can adjust the volume and pause music on my N800 without having to look at it.
This is what I said earlier...

You have to look at your Internet Tablet in order to use it too. Only volume and full-screen and navigation (something you have to notice while looking at it) work well... and only one of them is something you can do without looking at it on the Nokia IT's.

Can that be done on the iPhone/Touch?
Yep. But then again, I have an iPod, not iPhone/Touch... and I have an external small remote if you remember those.

I can even stop, start, pause, jump tracks, and answer phone calls on my N95 while it sits in my pocket all using my MotorolaS9 A2DP headset too.
Of course, neither the iPhone or the new Touch iPod can currently do that. Probably in a month or two there will be yet another...
Dunno. Was hoping you guys could answer that. I can't talk about stuff I don't have. I have an Nokia 770. From the post where I asked a question - post #156 in this thread - I stated only about the Nokia 770 and the upcoming iPhone Touch's more than likely commercial success.

Throwing more into the arena solves nothing.

I expect Nokia to HOPEFULLY get A2DP rolled into the next N800 firmware [this is your first and last hint on this from me, Nokia, get a damn clue already].
Concur 100%.

ysss

09-09-2007, 10:09 PM

The NIT are fine hardware. They're kick *** for linux savvy userse and linux hackers.

But without the commercial success (that many people here associate and compare with Apple products), there doesn't seem to be enough steam (incentives, motivation) in the NIT ecosystem.

The growth happens in sporadic fashion (distributed with minimum orchestration) as per the norm in the opensource developments. There are hints of greatness all over, but they take awhile to be rolled up into the official firmware if they will make it at all.

Let's do a simple exercise to roughly gauge the 'commercial success\acceptance' of NIT. Imagine 100 potential customers that represent the target market. Soccer moms, business suits, regular joes, students, etc.
Distribute N800 sets to them, one per person.

1. How many will get additional programs installed? (navigate to maemo.org and download, quite easy.)

2. How many will manage to find the best of breed programs installed? (do point #1 over and over to compare apps, or delve down to internet forums to join the confusion of distributed documentation).

3. How many do you think will get to run Skype on their unit? (flash their firmware).

How many of the 100 user will see NIT as the same device (developed to its potential) as most people on this forum see it as?

The way I see it, the NITs are awesome devices with almost limitless possibilities. But if they're not accessible to the user, it's useless to them.

(Yes, yes, they're not useless to you and me.)

Texrat

09-09-2007, 10:40 PM

Guys, guys, guys.

We're all spoiled by ease-of-access and immediacy these days. Sure, it's fun to say things should "just work", but for every situation where that's now actuality (and they are far from legion) there are untold hours (years/decades/centuries) of effort behind such an advent.

I said it before but maybe it bears repeating: there are too many new, novel aspects to the NITs and their ecosystem (a proprietary device INTENDED to run free software!!!) to make so many claims that the devices should be on par with Consumer Device X or Consumer Device Y just yet.

With the 770 and N800, Nokia rewound the clock, first back to, say, the Commodore 64 days and then forward from there to the PC XTs. Sure, that required savvier users than Windows XP does but if the largest cell phone manufacturer in the world didn't see merit in the approach then we wouldn't be facing the prospect of further development (and we are).

So feel free to second-guess and speculate and hell even bash the company outright it it brings catharsis... but slow and steady really has won a race or two. I'm frustrated at the rate of progress (God am I frustrated) as a user but as someone who also sits on the other side of the fence I'm also damn glad the company is moving methodically instead of treating the tablets as disposable MP3 players or such. I suddenly feel bipolar. :D

But... patience. Nothing's over yet.

iball

09-09-2007, 10:49 PM

I don't really care as long as Nokia keeps making newer ITs.
The way I see it, the ITs are strictly devices for Linux gurus and more of a way for Nokia to get a lot of "feedback" from those folks that they then take and roll up into more consumer-oriented devices.
And I'm OK with that in a way, but in another way I think they need to select a group of N770/N800 IT die-hard gurus around the planet and give them a FREE hardware upgrade to the next iteration of the tablet in exchange for exhaustive bug reporting and user experience data. In a way Nokia is already doing this with their "S60 Agent" program in NY, but even that program needs to go out world-wide as well. Word-of-mouth and "viral marketing" aside, just having bug reports and user experiences from REAL people will help them get more out of their current investments in these technologies.
Stop giving free stuff to the Finns and Brits already, they already get down on their knees for you.

Also, attack the U.S. market seriously or stay the phuck out.
Doing it using the half-assed methods you currently use here just make you look silly.
An Evening With S60 not only sounds lame, but it focus on only ONE section of Nokia's device map.
Drinks are on Nokia with free cab rides for locals and folks staying in hotels in the city sounds much better. Throw in a good band or two (I recommend Brother Love, I think he's local to NYC...good party band) and you'll help capture the disposable-income 18-30 year-old demographic.
They'll wake up in the morning with a bag full of schwag and a hangover going "man, that was some wild-*** party I went to last night" and they'll mention it to their friends, etc. Right now no one in America CARES about Nokia's products because they don't know Nokia even EXISTS.
You'll know you're starting to win folks over when they start pronouncing the word "Nokia" correctly and remember that they make cool phones and throw bad-@$$ launch parties.
For the love of all that is holy, hire a friggin' publicist Nokia.
Or do I need to fly over there and kick you in the jimmy?

Texrat

09-09-2007, 11:19 PM

Kick someone else. :p I'm with you.

tabletfan

09-10-2007, 12:19 AM

Odd....I can adjust the volume and pause music on my N800 without having to look at it.
Can that be done on the iPhone/Touch?
I can even stop, start, pause, jump tracks, and answer phone calls on my N95 while it sits in my pocket all using my MotorolaS9 A2DP headset too.
Of course, neither the iPhone or the new Touch iPod can currently do that. Probably in a month or two there will be yet another new-and-improved-stereo-bluetooth-ipod-dongle for folks to dish out an additional $50+ for in order to even get the current functionality of either my N95 or N800. Granted, A2DP on the N800 requires some "hacking" but once setup it's easy to use and works well. I expect Nokia to HOPEFULLY get A2DP rolled into the next N800 firmware [this is your first and last hint on this from me, Nokia, get a damn clue already].

Btw, you can adjust volume, pause, and jump tracks on the iPhone without having to touch or unlock the screen.

iball

09-10-2007, 01:23 AM

Kick someone else. :p I'm with you.

I meant kick all of Nokia in the jimmy, but I'll settle for OPK.

ragnar

09-10-2007, 02:35 AM

Btw, you can adjust volume, pause, and jump tracks on the iPhone without having to touch or unlock the screen.

I'm curious, how? I have the iPhone here. I've only found adjusting volume, but not any way to pause or jump tracks.

HeebieJeebie

09-10-2007, 03:46 AM

I'm curious, how? I have the iPhone here. I've only found adjusting volume, but not any way to pause or jump tracks.

I believe from what I've read that there's some kind of button or nub on the headset that allows you to start/stop music, answer calls, and skip tracks. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

ragnar

09-10-2007, 04:23 AM

I believe from what I've read that there's some kind of button or nub on the headset that allows you to start/stop music, answer calls, and skip tracks. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh yes, you're right.

The default white Apple ones are always so craptacular in their sound quality that I didn't even try them anymore. :)

Moving on, what do you guys think of this:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/breaking/apple-cripples-ipod-touch-eliminates-add-button-from-calendar-297994.php

Milhouse

09-10-2007, 11:03 AM

Moving on, what do you guys think of this:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/breaking/apple-cripples-ipod-touch-eliminates-add-button-from-calendar-297994.php

A somewhat pointless move on Apples part... it won't stop the majority of people buying Touches just because it lacks a decent calendar, and only a small number of buyers might be pushed towards the iPhone but they were probably considering the iPhone anwyay. I'd be surprised if the dumbed down calendar in the Touch is sufficient reason to convince someone to pay $100 more as well as sign up for a two year AT&T contract at between $50-$100/month. That's a lot of money to pay for a calendar...

barry99705

09-10-2007, 01:12 PM

They must be doing something right. It only took 74 days to sell one million units. Wonder how many ITT's have been sold?

Texrat

09-10-2007, 01:16 PM

They must be doing something right.

..........................marketing ^

Mara

09-10-2007, 01:46 PM

..........................marketing ^

Well... another opposite example I saw in my trip last week in Vietnam: You can see the NOKIA banners everywhere. Every single cell phone store use it as a bait to lure customers in... It is the most wanted brand of cell phones there. Nokia must be doing something right there?

iball

09-10-2007, 01:53 PM

Well... another opposite example I saw in my trip last week in Vietnam: You can see the NOKIA banners everywhere. Every single cell phone store use it as a bait to lure customers in... It is the most wanted brand of cell phones there. Nokia must be doing something right there?

Yes, it's called "marketing on every other continent except North America".

sherifnix

09-10-2007, 02:12 PM

Odd....I can adjust the volume and pause music on my N800 without having to look at it.
Can that be done on the iPhone/Touch?
I can even stop, start, pause, jump tracks, and answer phone calls on my N95 while it sits in my pocket all using my MotorolaS9 A2DP headset too.
Of course, neither the iPhone or the new Touch iPod can currently do that. Probably in a month or two there will be yet another new-and-improved-stereo-bluetooth-ipod-dongle for folks to dish out an additional $50+ for in order to even get the current functionality of either my N95 or N800. Granted, A2DP on the N800 requires some "hacking" but once setup it's easy to use and works well. I expect Nokia to HOPEFULLY get A2DP rolled into the next N800 firmware [this is your first and last hint on this from me, Nokia, get a damn clue already].

You blindly hate the iPhone. You can adjust volume, pause and change tracks on the iPhone without taking it out of your pocket from day one. You chided be for not knowing the product before bashing it, and your guilty of it first hand. Yet you couldn't site one instance of my not knowing the N800, because I own one.

Your arguments are tired, uninformed and wrong.

andymulhearn

09-10-2007, 02:23 PM

..........................marketing ^

And of course, absolutely nothing to do with having a product that people want to buy.

Texrat

09-10-2007, 02:26 PM

And of course, absolutely nothing to do with having a product that people want to buy.

Sorry... where did anyone make such an absurd claim? I can't find it...

And I wonder if people wanting a product has anything to do with good marketing in the first place... :rolleyes:

sherifnix

09-10-2007, 02:34 PM

I don't think the iPod Touch will affect the N800, but the iPhone is exactly what they are after. "The Internet everywhere."

Why carry a phone and a non pocketable device when you can browse the web, do email, hop on youtube and edit stuff with google docs? I installed Apollo IM and it works perfectly.

I might be in the minority on an IT based message board, but in the real world, people dont like to have a man purse just to look something up on the internet. Its just like the UMPC, there is no market, or its the wrong time and place.

I am browsing these forums, posting, listening to music, watching a tv episode on the ride home all on a device that fits in my pant pocket. Whats the point of the N800 for most people? Youll see most devices will end up in this form factor.

Texrat

09-10-2007, 02:44 PM

Another part of Barry's quote:

It only took 74 days to sell one million units.

That is surely something in which Apple can take pride.

Wake me up when they sell over 1 million smartphones per week.

;)

Milhouse

09-10-2007, 02:52 PM

Another part of Barry's quote:

That is surely something in which Apple can take pride.

Wake me up when they sell over 1 million smartphones per week.

;)

According to various analysts, that should be in 2009 when Apple will be shifting 45m iPhones per year, and they will be receiving significant kickbacks ($3-$11/month) from each subscriber. And that doesn't include income from iTunes. Do the math(s)... those numbers should add a VERY healthy bottom line to Apples accounts. I'm sure even Nokia would be green with envy when looking at such a business plan.

Texrat

09-10-2007, 03:01 PM

It's good to speculate on things that have yet to manifest.

It's also good to occasionally ground one's self in current reality. ;)

nosam

09-10-2007, 03:17 PM

What happens when the people who buy the Touch realize you can't get free wifi anywhere (except a few places). I live in San Francisco and work downtown and there are only a very few places I could actually browse the internet and watch youtube with a Touch or a NIT.
Somehow I can't see all the casual buyers of the Touch setting up their own wifi home network. I think word will get out that you can't use the internet anywhere (not literally) with the touch, at least without paying a monthly fee at starbucks or somewhere.
The Iphone avoids all this with wireless phone service I think.
So, since NITs can pair with cell phones, this makes them much more useable than the Touch that cant do this.
Other's opinions?

I don't think the iPod Touch will affect the N800, but the iPhone is exactly what they are after. "The Internet everywhere."

Why carry a phone and a non pocketable device when you can browse the web, do email, hop on youtube and edit stuff with google docs? I installed Apollo IM and it works perfectly.

I might be in the minority on an IT based message board, but in the real world, people dont like to have a man purse just to look something up on the internet. Its just like the UMPC, there is no market, or its the wrong time and place.

I am browsing these forums, posting, listening to music, watching a tv episode on the ride home all on a device that fits in my pant pocket. Whats the point of the N800 for most people? Youll see most devices will end up in this form factor.

Texrat

09-10-2007, 03:27 PM

MobileOpportunity (http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/10/quote-of-the-day-michael-mace/)

Mike's blog just pointed to a nice post.

direct link (http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2007/09/war-between-nokia-and-apple.html)

A fairly well-balanced post, thanks for the link! It was maybe 60 Apple / 40 Nokia, but then, Apple has the advantage in the areas that are important to consumers-- in the US that is. I don't think Nokia has to sweat much anywhere else-- Apple's lesser experience in global logistics is the hurdle they need to overcome. And Europeans have different desires than American consumers where device appearance, functionality and services are concerned.

I think Nokia is smugly banking on its global position to eventually dictate standards, but Americans will resist that fiercely. They will bash iTunes' weaknesses on one hand and then fiercely defend its strengths against an interloper.

This drama is by no means concluded, despite what fans on either side claim. Wait and watch, and I hope Mike is wrong about how the consumers will fare in this battle.

On a side note, does anyone see Nokia purchasing, say, Sandisk's Sansa line (or similar) eventually?

iball

09-10-2007, 04:01 PM

You blindly hate the iPhone. You can adjust volume, pause and change tracks on the iPhone without taking it out of your pocket from day one. You chided be for not knowing the product before bashing it, and your guilty of it first hand. Yet you couldn't site one instance of my not knowing the N800, because I own one.

Your arguments are tired, uninformed and wrong.

Wrong. I've used the iPhone before. Wires, wires, wires, wires, wires....tired of wires.

When that can be done out-of-the-box on an iPod with a stereo bluetooth headset then I'll take a look at buying one.
Until then, my N95 does the job fine.

sherifnix

09-10-2007, 04:28 PM

Sound quality is very important, and A2DP doesn't provide any.

I'm not defending the iPhone here, I can't stand the sound from wireless headphones. I have a nice pair of Shure's that I wouldnt trade for the world.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is this. The N800 in its current form SUCKS for most end users, whereas the iPhone is a joy to sync and browse out of the box. Why is it so hard for Nokia to provide a reasonably good end user experience? Whenever I show the N800 to people they are impressed that its a little computer, before they ask me two questions.

How the hell do I use it, and why?

Texrat

09-10-2007, 05:06 PM

The N800 in its current form SUCKS for most end users

Kind of a broad brush there, eh, Rembrandt? Is that fact-based or assumption? And doesn't the experience depend on intent of use?

I still don't like the idea of jogging with my N800 strapped to a flailing limb, or bouncing dangerously in a pants pocket, but on the other hand, it sure looks sweet when I'm relaxing on the couch... ;)

YoDude

09-10-2007, 05:34 PM

He is right... The N800 does suck for end users who want an iPhone...

Not being a fan-boy of either company I will say this. The N800 market is hardware driven the iPhone's is software driven.

What I mean is... I suppose most who bought a Nokia tablet were attracted by its hardware capabilities first. Software was secondary. The fact that it ran Linux was a plus because the expectation was that if the software was not commercially available, any one could or would eventually write it.

The iPhone is just the opposite. People who buy it are doing so because of what the software can do. They don't care about the hardware. That is evident by its form, a monolithic "brick". A pet rock if you will, that just happens to do some neat ish when you turn it on. You can not do anything more with it than what the next guy can do.

Each market is different and each user would be disappointed with the other device. The sale figures prove only that more people with discretionary income will purchase something that does a few things well and requires limited user knowledge. Less people will pay for something with much more potential but requires the user to learn something first.

In other words the iPone is an IT for dummies that also has a 2 year contract with a phone company. :)

Flame on. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/waffen/violent-smiley-020.gif

Texrat

09-10-2007, 05:46 PM

Well, geez, once you add the qualifier...

:rolleyes:

Milhouse

09-10-2007, 06:21 PM

It's good to speculate on things that have yet to manifest.

It's also good to occasionally ground one's self in current reality. ;)

I'd be more than happy to speculate on all things Nokia that are yet to manifest - the only trouble is, it would be a very short conversation.

As for grounding myself in reality, I'm simply repeating the projections of respected technology analysts - people paid to understand this stuff.

namtastic

09-10-2007, 06:34 PM

What happens when the people who buy the Touch realize you can't get free wifi anywhere (except a few places). I live in San Francisco and work downtown and there are only a very few places I could actually browse the internet and watch youtube with a Touch or a NIT.
Somehow I can't see all the casual buyers of the Touch setting up their own wifi home network. I think word will get out that you can't use the internet anywhere (not literally) with the touch, at least without paying a monthly fee at starbucks or somewhere.
The Iphone avoids all this with wireless phone service I think.
So, since NITs can pair with cell phones, this makes them much more useable than the Touch that cant do this.
Other's opinions?

Agreed... I think people are going to be sorely disappointed if they think this is the iPhone's internet experience sans telephone. Applications aside, that cellular data is used *much* much more often that most people realize, I think, except for certain users like college students when they may be surrounded by university access. But I have to pair with my phone 90% of the time when out and about in the city. Free (honest or not) Wi-Fi access points are difficult to come by in NYC, too.

And with the improvements in cell data and the continuing failure to create municipal access in cities, it's not going to get any better than this for traditional wi-fi.

iball

09-10-2007, 06:57 PM

I don't get this "no free wi-fi" in these supposed big influential cities.
In Raleigh, NC just about EVERYWHERE there's free wi-fi. Same with Chapel Hill, Durham, Wilmington, Fayetteville. Here in Kansas City it's the same but I've also found open wi-fi all along the interstates in St. Louis and downtown Chicago as well.
Granted, most of that "free access" are just *****s who don't know how to secure their APs, but still...
Even in Kansas and Missouri there are public rest stops along the interstates that have free wi-fi! I've even gassed up at a gas station literally in the middle of the prairie with nothing else in sight for miles and miles that offered free wi-fi for customers. Used my N800 with Skype right there to make a few calls and the call quality through my Ultimate Ears headset was damn good.
Now, here in Kansas City it's not hard at all to find a free, open wi-fi AP. Matter of fact, within range of me right now is a trusty ol' LINKSYS wi-fi router still set on default settings offering up free access in this apartment complex. Correction: make that MULTIPLE open linksys routers...all set on the same channel with the same defaults...ugh...going to have to go in there and jump them all over to different channels/freqs soon. You know, helping out the neighbors.
Even the management here at this apartment complex offers free wi-fi access not only at the clubhouse but poolside as well.
Are you telling me that Kansas City has more on the ball when it comes to free/open wi-fi than both San Francisco and New York City?
Maybe folks in the mid-west/south are more about "sharing" than the money-grubbing slime that live in those two big cities?

Now, if Sprint is REALLY serious about Wi-Max and uses existing towers to massively deploy it throughout the U.S. over the next year or two then I can see a Wi-Max-enabled N800 stomping the crap out of any current Apple product.
Especially if that N800 comes with Skype ALREADY INSTALLED ON IT. Sprint does a deal with both Nokia and Skype and they stand to make a small mint. Not a large mint mind you, but enough tomake it worthwhile.
More importantly they'll be collecting very valuable data on the whole thing (customers, experience, sales, issues, etc) that will put them ahead of everyone else in the whole wireless data game. There's only so much you can learn from EVDO after all.

Of course if Apple tosses out an iPod Touch that's Wi-Max enabled then the wheel spins again...

SD69

09-10-2007, 07:52 PM

Now, if Sprint is REALLY serious about Wi-Max and uses existing towers to massively deploy it throughout the U.S. over the next year or two then I can see a Wi-Max-enabled N800 stomping the crap out of any current Apple product.
Especially if that N800 comes with Skype ALREADY INSTALLED ON IT. Sprint does a deal with both Nokia and Skype and they stand to make a small mint. Not a large mint mind you, but enough tomake it worthwhile.
More importantly they'll be collecting very valuable data on the whole thing (customers, experience, sales, issues, etc) that will put them ahead of everyone else in the whole wireless data game. There's only so much you can learn from EVDO after all.

Of course if Apple tosses out an iPod Touch that's Wi-Max enabled then the wheel spins again...Hunting for free open WiFi hotspots is indeed a problem. Even in airports (where it shouldn't be).

I am very hopeful that Sprint delivers. To have an Internet connection and unlimited VoIP minutes everywhere w/o the limitations of US 3G data plans is a big advantage for the N800 WiMax version. This is where/how the Nokia IT can still compete/differentiate itself. Apple cannot roll-out connectivity solutions as well as Nokia, certainly not as quickly. Even now, they can't even do 3G.

Texrat

09-10-2007, 08:18 PM

I'd be more than happy to speculate on all things Nokia that are yet to manifest - the only trouble is, it would be a very short conversation.

As for grounding myself in reality, I'm simply repeating the projections of respected technology analysts - people paid to understand this stuff.

Just having fun with ya, Mil.

And you know what I was talking about. ;)

iball

09-10-2007, 08:23 PM

Hunting for free open WiFi hotspots is indeed a problem. Even in airports (where it shouldn't be).
Airports are another problem altogether. I wouldn't want to be walking around a US airport with an N800 lest some overzealous TSA guard think I'm a terrorist.
Of course, checking in luggage with handguns through TSA doesn't help either but it makes damn sure my luggage gets to where I'm going every single time.
The only airport I can complain about as far as wi-fi would have to be the one in Budapest, Hungary. It's range is weak. Went outside to have a smoke and could barely get a connection with either my N800 let alone the much-weaker N95.

I am very hopeful that Sprint delivers. To have an Internet connection and unlimited VoIP minutes everywhere w/o the limitations of US 3G data plans is a big advantage for the N800 WiMax version. This is where/how the Nokia IT can still compete/differentiate itself. Apple cannot roll-out connectivity solutions as well as Nokia, certainly not as quickly. Even now, they can't even do 3G.
Damn right. And due to the open-source nature of the tablet it won't be long before we figure out how to reverse-tether laptops and cell phones to Wi-Max through the N800.
How's THAT for future irony?

Milhouse

09-10-2007, 08:41 PM

Just having fun with ya, Mil.

Back atchya :)

Gonna try and duck out of this discussion from now on (although I'm not sure I'll be able to resist posting every now and again!) It's obvious there are at least two opinions on how the respective devices will progress, all we can do now is sit back and watch... and hope for some interesting announcements from Maemo/Nokia regarding the NIT platform. :)

Texrat

09-10-2007, 08:47 PM

This has been an awesome discussion. I hope everyone's having as much fun as I am!

:D

iball

09-10-2007, 08:51 PM

This has been an awesome discussion. I hope everyone's having as much fun as I am!

:D

I always have fun kicking Nokia's U.S. marketing reps in the jimmy.
Next stupidly-named Evening with S60 event I might even drive up to Chi-town and kick a few in the jimmy there. Starting with the guy who gave the event its name in the first place. When starting fresh in a new market you don't rave only about the operating system you rave about the HARDWARE first, then bring up the operating system features on the various devices.
I'll be the one wearing the I solve my problems through violence t-shirt and legally packing heat.
Why the gun? Hey, it's bloody Chicago for crying out loud! Not to mention it's too close to Detroit for my comfort.

namtastic

09-10-2007, 10:03 PM

Are you telling me that Kansas City has more on the ball when it comes to free/open wi-fi than both San Francisco and New York City?
Maybe folks in the mid-west/south are more about "sharing" than the money-grubbing slime that live in those two big cities?

I believe it's a population density issue. NYC's is 27,083 people per square mile, SF is 15,834 and KC is 1,406. NYC and SF are also heavily traveled (tourism, visitors, etc.) so you're serving that many more people on top of the resident population, and are open to that much more resource demand & potential abuse (don't forget), which overwhelms a lot of small businesses. Also, because these cities have such high rents and cost-of-living, those businesses require rapid turnover to make the sales needed to survive, and offering someone wi-fi access for free means they just hang around, slowing customer turnover and blocking new ones. (Hell, New York has had blackouts that have forced businesses to close for good -- it's not pretty.)

Paying for wi-fi doesn't just fund infrastructure and balance out the sag in turnover, it also weeds out the leechers (both in the store and in the 4 office buildings surrounding your store) from the people who care enough about their network needs to think a good wi-fi connection is worth something.

Essentially, it's a defensive maneuver.

iball

09-10-2007, 10:37 PM

I believe it's a population density issue. NYC's is 27,083 people per square mile, SF is 15,834 and KC is 1,406. NYC and SF are also heavily traveled (tourism, visitors, etc.) so you're serving that many more people on top of the resident population, and are open to that much more resource demand & potential abuse (don't forget), which overwhelms a lot of small businesses. Also, because these cities have such high rents and cost-of-living, those businesses require rapid turnover to make the sales needed to survive, and offering someone wi-fi access for free means they just hang around, slowing customer turnover and blocking new ones. (Hell, New York has had blackouts that have forced businesses to close for good -- it's not pretty.)

Paying for wi-fi doesn't just fund infrastructure and balance out the sag in turnover, it also weeds out the leechers (both in the store and in the 4 office buildings surrounding your store) from the people who care enough about their network needs to think a good wi-fi connection is worth something.

Essentially, it's a defensive maneuver.

So you're trying to tell me that because there are FEWER residents in a given area that free wi-fi will be more prevalent in those areas?
Sorry, but basic logic counters that line of thinking.
The MORE residents in a given area INCREASES the chance of free/open wi-fi APs being found and used.
It's a numbers game based upon odds. Just like Vegas.
BTW, I've found plenty of free wi-fi in Las Vegas too, but that was a few years ago...things might have changed but Vegas doesn't really change much.
I also consider WEP-protected wi-fi APs to be "free and open" since I can usually crack them wide-open in a few minutes with my laptop.
Packet injection FTW!