One more reason to love my nokia and hate apple.

[sachin007]

check this link

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/greener-electronics-ranking-5-190907

[basco]

Its probably like Nokia donated more to Greenpeace. :D

[Karel Jansens]

That's the final straw. No more Nokias for me! Ever.

[dan67sf]

Oh what a close race this is, as they round the track lenovo in the lead closely following is sonyericson with nokia and fujitsuseimens neck and neck on the straitaway. OH NO what's this I cant believe it did you see that folks the batteries are exploding pieces going everywhere, OH the humanity of it all what a sad day this will be. What are we going to do.......

[ysss]

All the treehuggers among the geeks, please stand up!


......



I don't see any?

[sachin007]

I am not a tree hugger for sure. But anything against apple...... I am always there. But imagine how jobs would have trumpeted this if apple was on top of the list. I just cant handle jobs and his exaggerations

[ysss]

I don't get it.. do you envy him?
Do you think that he's getting all the success from suckering many people with overpriced inferior products?

IMHO, your energy is better off being invested in improving whatever it is that you believe in (Maemo platform? Go port apps to Hildon so NIT get more apps in its library!)

Disclaimer: I own apple products. I enjoy them. I own Nokia products, they're cool too. I absolutely love the N800. I own Treo 680, it's indispensable for me. Etc etc..

Have your cake, eat it too.

[barry99705]

So I'd like to see what a noninterested 3rd party says how "green" computers are. I mean come on! They ***** about "saving the earth" while driving around a big assed diesle boat!

[nosam]

I'n not standing cause I'm typing, but I actually do hug trees. you should try it - its very relaxing. Give the tree a full hug and breath for a few minutes.
HA ha ha. Not joking though, its a meditation practice.

I'm glad that companies are improving their environmental impact. I'm probably not helping with all my gadgets.

All the treehuggers among the geeks, please stand up!


......



I don't see any?

[sachin007]

I don't get it.. do you envy him?
Do you think that he's getting all the success from suckering many people with overpriced inferior products?

IMHO, your energy is better off being invested in improving whatever it is that you believe in (Maemo platform? Go port apps to Hildon so NIT get more apps in its library!)

Disclaimer: I own apple products. I enjoy them. I own Nokia products, they're cool too. I absolutely love the N800. I own Treo 680, it's indispensable for me. Etc etc..

HaveHave your cake, eat it too.

Actually i hate apple because every product is over priced and steve jobs announces them as absolute miracles. Look at nokia... they dont overprice thier products and they dont brag about something which is good as being out of the world. Did you ever hear that modesty is a virtue. Yeah i undersatnd one needs to advertise products. But the way iphone and touch were released was like they were the best in the world. Well i dont blame steve even i would do the same if i had a bunch of brainless fanboys going gaga over every product i release.
Its just frustrating to see companies like apple being able to make huge profits by selling substandard products for thier specific price while not spending any of it on good deeds like the environment.
Just look at nokia never did they mention about the effort they put into the environment and imagine how steve would have spoken at each and every keynote about the wonderful job they were doing if they actually did half of what nokia did!!!
And the way apple treats 3 party software and open source is pathetic. Look at nokia they embrace them and we all know nokia is also trying to wrench control from the absolutely dumb cellular services providers in the u.s even at the risk of losing buisiness. Nokia thinks for the people and the future. But all apple does is making money . Nothing wrong in it. But it is definitely something else to do to do wat nokia is doing. Have you ever tried being modest???? Do it once and izam sure you will appreciate it the next time.
me.
me.

[kenny]

...... OH the humanity of it all what a sad day this is will be........

Isn't this the famous quote from the radio commentator announcing live as the Hindenburg caught fire in New Jersey?
That always stuck in my head ...."Oh the humanity of it all...."
.
Sorry for the OT.

[jwtseng]

You really needn't kid yourself into thinking that both companies that you mention are not in it for the money. This all sounds like the old BetaMax vs. VHS battle. What you see as superior technology/worldview/whatever from Nokia may be the truth...I don't know...but you certainly can't deny the fact that Apple is doing a helluva better job bringing incrementally advanced technology to the masses...things that people never knew they needed or wanted. I agree with a previous poster that you are probably better off and will experience better karma by directing your "hate" towards more constructive endeavors. Otherwise, you risk isolating yourself from the world that is big enough for both Nokia and Apple.

[iball]

Anyone linking to anything at Greenpeace's site instantly invalidates their argument.

[sachin007]

"Apple is doing a helluva better job bringing incrementally advanced technology to the masses..."

Advanced technology??

Tell me more.....

[ysss]

I personally think the ultimate measure of success for a new idea\invention\technology\product (aka 'thing'), is how many people would want and use it in their life.

Whether a company is involved in the creation, distribution and capitalization of that 'thing', I attribute that to the company's smarts. AFAICT in the current market, especially with the information transparency the internet provides, you can't get by on marketing buzz alone to truly succeed. The market will shoot down stinkers anyway (IE: Foleo, AppleTV, DivX the disc format).

Now.. I think I know the point of view of pro-Linux\opensource people, because I'm one of them. Although I don't 'hate' the 'competitors', because I also need and benefits from their offerings (Macs for my personal life, IBM iSeries and Windows servers at work working w/ Linux boxens, etc)...

Linux users are like Burger Chefs at local gourmet diners. They fix their burgers with love and care, knowing they select the best ingredients and prepare it as best as they can.

Apple is like McDonald. Omnipotent, everywhere, they simplify (dumb-down?) their menu, and they probably have crap inside their food too (which passes FDA). But people still buy McD all the time because it's just good enough for most people's needs and most people have no interest nor intention to go into the kitchen to fix a burger. They have better things to do than that.

The chefs think their burgers are better than McD's, but McD is having all this commercial success. What can they do? Is their product truly superior compared to the giant's?

[barry99705]

"Apple is doing a helluva better job bringing incrementally advanced technology to the masses..."

Advanced technology??

Tell me more.....


Lets see, firewire, Newton (you know one of the first real successful pdas), home (affordable) wifi, iPods.

Oh, wait, forgot "One more thing". They are also the largest distributer of Unix in the world.

[Rebski]

If we are looking for a few more reasons to see Apple in an unfavourable light there are a good few reasons here
http://wilshipley.com/blog/2007/09/iphone-ipod-contain-or-disengage.html

Sample quote "Apple wanted a share of the carrier's profits, which meant giving AT&T an exclusive deal. Which meant, we get screwed so Apple can make more money. It's that simple."

[sachin007]

I personally think the ultimate measure of success for a new idea\invention\technology\product (aka 'thing'), is how many people would want and use it in their life.

Whether a company is involved in the creation, distribution and capitalization of that 'thing', I attribute that to the company's smarts. AFAICT in the current market, especially with the information transparency the internet provides, you can't get by on marketing buzz alone to truly succeed. The market will shoot down stinkers anyway (IE: Foleo, AppleTV, DivX the disc format).

Now.. I think I know the point of view of pro-Linux\opensource people, because I'm one of them. Although I don't 'hate' the 'competitors', because I also need and benefits from their offerings (Macs for my personal life, IBM iSeries and Windows servers at work working w/ Linux boxens, etc)...

Linux users are like Burger Chefs at local gourmet diners. They fix their burgers with love and care, knowing they select the best ingredients and prepare it as best as they can.

Apple is like McDonald. Omnipotent, everywhere, they simplify (dumb-down?) their menu, and they probably have crap inside their food too (which passes FDA). But people still buy McD all the time because it's just good enough for most people's needs and most people have no interest nor intention to go into the kitchen to fix a burger. They have better things to do than that.

The chefs think their burgers are better than McD's, but McD is having all this commercial success. What can they do? Is their product truly superior compared to the giant's?

That is the point. I agree apple products especially the iphone ipod are cool and sexy. But looks matter more than the functions for an ordinary user not for most of the people in this forum because we are more geeks than ordinary users. The interfaces are good but how far will a lone interface take you??
I mean it is good for the initial days and it is cool to show it around to people .... but after the initial honey moon what do you do with them??
There are not many functions to use. Unlike nokia which actually loads its products with loads of fucntions which actually are more useful in the longer run.

I am just frustrated that apple is getting away at pricing things the way it does. I would not mind at all if they priced it reasonably.
CAn you really support that apple always give the bang for the buck??
Give me one example of an apple product which is priced reasonably..... i will stop hating apple. (Not that you really care!!)

[tabletrat]

CAn you really support that apple always give the bang for the buck??

Not always, no, but you only buy something that is worth it to you (well, I do, and I assume most people do). I have just bought an iPod touch, which I love, and I can't find anything else that does what it does for the money. That doesn't mean nothing else does, but I haven't seen it.

Give me one example of an apple product which is priced reasonably..... i will stop hating apple.

No you won't. If you want to hate apple you will hate apple, regardless of whether someone else thinks something is reasonable or not. I have a macbook pro, and my wife has a macbook. I think the pro is a bit too expensive but the macbook was great value for money. However, I was happy to pay for both as they did what I wanted at a price I was prepared to pay, and nothing else did.

Isn't that the idea of reasonable pricing? It was the same reason I used buying my 770 which has proved invaluable in my holiday in the US that I returned from yesterday.
So I now have an iPod touch and a 770. I don't understand why people compare the two though as they are completely different devices for different tasks. I am keeping both.

[sachin007]

"I have just bought an iPod touch, which I love, and I can't find anything else that does what it does for the money"

Yeah i agree the touch was priced lot better compared to the other apple products. But seriously do you think an dmp without support for bluetooth headset ..... is that innovation??

And i have never seen apple including an fm tuner just for the sake of it. I feel that they do it purposefully so that more and more people buy more songs from itunes. Come on even the cheapest and smallest chinese mock ups have built in fm tuners.

I know these are small issues .... but apple could have added these.... but they never will because they are apple.

[sachin007]

got some more:

Only with the release of the Apple Macintosh in 1984 did the mouse see widespread use. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_mouse)

Things changed dramatically in 1984 when Apple Computer selected the format for their new Macintosh computers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskette#The_3.C2.BD-inch_microfloppy_diskette)

Desktop publishing began in 1985 with the introduction of PageMaker software from Aldus and the LaserWriter printer from Apple Computer for the Apple Macintosh computer. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_publishing)

On August 28th, 1991, AppleLink, running on a Macintosh Portable was used to send the first e-mail from space, ... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleLink)

The first digital cameras for the consumer-level market that worked with a home computer via a serial cable were the Apple QuickTake 100 camera (February 17 , 1994), ... (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bldigitalcamera.htm)

Apple Macintosh computers have been using USB exclusively for all wired mice and keyboards since January 1999. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB)

they brought it.



Apple doesn't just sell 'things'.

if you look at the iPod as just an mp3player, the Mac as just a computer and the iPhone as just a smart phone, the prices will never become reasonable for you.

time for some grok job methinks.

I personally dont think iphone is a smart phone. It just has a music player and phone functions!!

[ysss]

To Sachin007:

If I want to buy a cordless homephone, I don't want the phone to have kitchen sink on its side. I just want it to do the job right everytime I need to use it. Maybe it's fun for phone technicians to tinker with a phone by tweaking it to further its functions (increase its power, adding kitchen sinks to its side, etc). But that's not my thing. I have my job to tend to and I do my recreation elsewhere.. not by tinkering a phone.

I'd reckon the extreme majority of the market feels the same way about dmp as I feel about cordless phones. They just don't give a rat's *** whether the dmp can be reflashed to run a variant of linux, or whether it can be hacked to show a console with dmp:~# text on it. They just want admp that sounds good, easy to use and looks good when they flash it on the way to the beach w/ their lady friends or whatever. Things that most Linux geeks think as 'mundane' and 'non technical' probably.

But, they're the paying customer. If you don't tap into them, you don't have a successful product. You may have a kickass hardware here (770, N800), but without the proper income revenue Nokia will still bear this project as R&D expense on their books. That's not gonna last forever.

I'm still excited w/ NIT platform because already have a product that excites the *nix geeks in us... and with just a little sprinkle of 'simplified-ui-package.deb' on top, it may just break into widespread market.

[sachin007]

I am just holding my breath for the next tablet. It is going to trump everything.

[barry99705]

I am just holding my breath for the next tablet. It is going to trump everything.

Careful, you'll pass out.

[sachin007]

Forget me. You definitely will when it comes.

[tabletrat]

"I have just bought an iPod touch, which I love, and I can't find anything else that does what it does for the money"

Yeah i agree the touch was priced lot better compared to the other apple products. But seriously do you think an dmp without support for bluetooth headset ..... is that innovation??

Whether it has bluetooth or not, it is an innovation. I play with the iPod touch and it is a really amazing interface. I am impressed by it, it is innovative.

No, it doesn't have bluetooth but then it doesn't make toast either, so I don't quite get your point. Does something have to do everything you want to be innovative?

And i have never seen apple including an fm tuner just for the sake of it. I feel that they do it purposefully so that more and more people buy more songs from itunes.

You can get plug-in FM tuners if you want one. I certainly wouldn't consider an FM radio a selling point whether it was there or not, and if you look at the take apart pictures, there isn't that much room. I wouldn't be prepared to putting up with something a mm thicker just to have some FM radio that I would never use.

Come on even the cheapest and smallest chinese mock ups have built in fm tuners.

Indeed, and still people buy iPods. That either implies that people are all fashion victims that are prepared to spend loads of money on something that is no use, or that maybe that is not a very important thing for that many people.

I know these are small issues .... but apple could have added these.... but they never will because they are apple.

Or because they think that people may not want a radio as much as you think they do?

[Rebski]

Do you actually know something? If so then please share it with us.

[Texrat]

All the treehuggers among the geeks, please stand up!


......



I don't see any?

I will proudly accept that label. I am a full supporter of environmental renewal, sustainment and conservation. I am also a geek. I don't see a conflict. ;)

[slaguru]

I am just holding my breath for the next tablet. It is going to trump everything.

With all the speculation of the new tablet I assume that it will have some GPS, more memory, better software dev, maybe a better interface.

Will it be better than an iPod Touch or iPhone, well technically of course. Who will care, not many people, us I suppose. Will it be supported fully with millions being pumped into software, no maybe not. Will it sell more than the iPhone, or iPod Touch, never.

If you get the new tablet looking like an iPhone, working like one, with all its ease of use, you may be on a winner.

Bets please.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

Hi all. I hope I'm not intruding on the conversation, but I'd like to introduce myself and take part in the discussion. I'm Capt'n Corrupt, an avid developer, who will soon be contributing to the software development of the Nxxx series of devices. That said, here goes:

It would seem that devices these days are converging to a single set of functionality. This is true for MP3 players, phones, internet tablets, etc. As technology shrinks and time progresses, the categorization of said devices becomes little more than marketing labels to appeal to a particular demographic. This is because, despite labels, the characteristics of these devices splill over their labels into unlabeled territory.

To the general public who do not endlessly pour over the seemingly inane ramblings of an anxious community, these devices are just that: an MP3 player, a phone, or an internet tablet. To the wiser (read: us) who recognize that the only *real* differences are quickly becoming the performance of functions and the interface, it appears frustrating that the public "don't get it." In which case, we vent our frustration to each other regarding marketing decisions, incomprehension of capability, device styling; all in the name of _image_, or put another way, how the device is generally perceived.

The iPhone is not only a phone, but a phone, an MP3 player, a mobile internet device, etc, etc. Similarly, the N810 is not simply an internet tablet, but a phone, an mp3 player, a mobile internet device, etc, etc. The difference is in the competences of each device for the respective characteristic. The iPhone may be able to surf the web, but arguably not as easy as the N810 with a higher resolution and flash support. The N810 may not be able to make GSM calls, but can use WiFi to make/receive calls.

Which is better? It's a personal question dependent on the stringent needs of the individual (hasn't it always been this way?). It depends how closely the characteristics of these future devices and their competences match our criteria for productivity and entertainment. But the issue becomes less moot as both time and technology move forward. Soon, arguing the superiority of one or the other will be equivalent to arguing GAP vs. Gucci; a matter of pure taste (or the propensity to be manipulated by corporate adverts :)). In a lot of ways, it already is.

I'm looking forward to buying my first Internet Tablet: The N810. But this is because I do not have, and have little need for a phone. Otherwise, I would likely consider a device that was more like an iPhone or the upcoming nokia S60.

Till next time.. Keep love in your heart, progress on your mind, and the horizon before your eyes.

}:^)~
YARR!!

The Capt'n

[debudebu]

Well said.

[smog]

Its probably like Nokia donated more to Greenpeace. :DI work for a subcontractor of Nokia.

No doubt, Nokia leads the way to green manufacturing (as green as it can be)

[bbin]

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/features/green-electronics-guide-ewaste250806/

Nokia still in the lead with Dell. I'd say buying electronics can never be green but this is good pr for NOK.

[h3llraz0r]

Good PR for NOK: Bring MeeGo support back to the N900.

[gerbick]

Look at nokia... they dont overprice thier products and they dont brag about something which is good as being out of the world.

Say wha? GTFOH

Same CPU is used in plenty of other similar phones for much less, unsubsidized. Sorry, but Nokia is the king of pricing their stuff too highly. Nokia, then Sony, then Apple. All are overpriced.

[wmarone]

Say wha? GTFOH

Same CPU is used in plenty of other similar phones for much less, unsubsidized. Sorry, but Nokia is the king of pricing their stuff too highly. Nokia, then Sony, then Apple. All are overpriced.

No joke. Case in point: Beagleboard. Effectively the same hardware as most of the devices in question and not much bigger. $150. Formfactor and additional components can not possibly add another $400 to the price, for any phone.

[Caballero]

Oh,oh,oh!! Please let me in on the Apple Flaming! Yes, I agree Apple Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckks!!!!!!!!!!!!:p

[ysss]

lol, did you guys just dug up a 3 years old flamewar?

in that case..

I am just holding my breath for the next tablet. It is going to trump everything.

I'm lovin my iPad 3G.

[wmarone]

lol, did you guys just dug up a 3 years old flamewar?

Mm, thread necro. And it's so in tune with the tone around here these days it didn't even occur to me.

[benny1967]

I personally think the ultimate measure of success for a new idea\invention\technology\product (aka 'thing'), is how many people would want and use it in their life.

There's two distinct concepts here: "good" and "successful".

What you describe is one possible definition of successful. While being successful with a product is good for the vendor, it holds no value for me as a consumer. I eat a burger at McDonald's. The fact that these burgers are successful doesn't make them taste better or have less calories. It's irrelevant for me.

What I'm after is good products. It may well be that other people don't know about these good products because the company that makes them is a small business with no marketing budget at all. It may be that people don't like them because they don't come in the right colours. Whatever. Good doesn't necessarily mean successful - and the other way round.

But good is what matters to me.

For me, being green is part of being good.
Being open is part of being good.
Being to the point, matter-of-factly, objective in public communication (instead of being American (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZS8HqOGTbA)) is part of being good.
Letting me be in control (instead of controlling me) is part of being good.

The OP has a point. Or two.

[quipper8]

No joke. Case in point: Beagleboard. Effectively the same hardware as most of the devices in question and not much bigger. $150. Formfactor and additional components can not possibly add another $400 to the price, for any phone.

beagleboard is 150, but you need to add camera module, battery, touchscreen, more memory, keyboard, case, include cables, packaging, support for a few years, and listen to people ***** about no meego.

[SAABoy]

All the treehuggers among the geeks, please stand up!


......



I don't see any?

I don't consider myself a mindless nature-freak as tree-huggers seem to be associated as. But I try my best to be aware of wasteful habits and lifestyles, and I do care for the earth and its beautiful balance of life.

Oh yea, I am kind of a geek. And I am very enthusiastic about my two cars... So I think it cant all mix...

[Caballero]

Hmmm? It's ysss all ways the Fanboy (Lackey)!! on this site:mad: Hey,well lets keep it going for another three more:D Apple sucks!:rolleyes:

[ysss]

@wmarone: yea, and we're gonna have ___* with what we've just dug out...

@benny: ok, here's 2010 me answering for 2007 me: Please reread what I've said :) It has to do with creating something (idea/product) that gets the public demand. In your hypothetical case, I'd say that thing may be a successful idea/product in its infancy.

* fun

[gerbick]

OP has no real point other than brand loyal hyperbole and oversight.

[benny1967]

@benny: ok, here's 2010 me answering for 2007 me: Please reread what I've said :) It has to do with creating something (idea/product) that gets the public demand. In your hypothetical case, I'd say that thing may be a successful idea/product in its infancy.

why would you want something only because it "gets the public demand"? the most embarrassing products do. huge public demand usually translates to "cheap, cheesy, no class, no style, no brain".

[ysss]

why would you want something only because it "gets the public demand"? the most embarrassing products do. huge public demand usually translates to "cheap, cheesy, no class, no style, no brain".

Isn't it ironic that you cite that argument when Nokia's mobile phones are in greater demand, worldwide, than iPhones?
(number of units sold)

[nilchak]

Isn't it ironic that you cite that argument when Nokia's mobile phones are in greater demand, worldwide, than iPhones?
(number of units sold)

Oh come on ysss, can't he do selective argument anyays ??? :-)

But to his point he uses N900 which has no mass arket demand and hence he (and we all) IS brainy, classy, stylish and expensive in his (our) tastes.

some argument indeed.I like this apple attacks ad-hominem

[acou]

Nokia or Apple? My answer is a simple one. I hate all (tech) corporations, the more technofascist their internal structures are, the worse.

I have a natural tendency of racism towards this strange breed of pigs in suits, and the pinstripe terrorism they practice.

[ysss]

@nilchak: Lol spot on

@acou: i heard you can stay away from such monstrosity in north korea or thereabout!

[acou]

@acou: i heard you can stay away from such monstrosity in north korea or thereabout!

Hehe.. nah, i find the top-down approach problematic, so i'll just stay where i am and watch the show.