About Sailfish community
 

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Re: About Sailfish community
 

That was very long. I sleept after the first 65 words... Hope I'm more in reading mood later. :(

Re: About Sailfish community
 

It is always well-mannered to start the thread in the correct forum.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I'm afraid that this Jolla community announcement comes as too little, too late for me.

I had been quite interested in the Jolla project for a while but now with the Neo900 project gaining momentum I have little incentive to go with Jolla.

Here are just a few reasons off the top of my head why I'm backing the Neo900 over Jolla:

• True community project - they have not ignored TMO and have involved us from the beginning.
• Both hardware and software are developed in the open.
• The team have listened to and responded to all (reasonable) opinions and suggestions.
• They have provided full transparency with regards to design decisions.
• Full Debian will be available out of the box. Stable, secure and proven OS with instant access to thousands of packages that matter to me more than Android apps.
• X11. Wayland isn't ready yet IMHO - I trust the Debian project to deliver Wayland once it can fully replace X.
• No unmaintained GPLv2 packages (The reason for this is that the Mer project favours Tivoisation!).
• Unlike Jolla, they haven't provided an SDK to only then change fundamental parts of it in the subsequent release that affect applications that have already been developed. I was working on LXC support and they took away X11. I won't even have to do anything to use this on the Neo900 as LXC is already available in Debian.
• I'm not the world's biggest systemd fan. Good idea in principle but poorly implemented.

The main incentive left for the Jolla device would be the superior hardware but if hardware was the most important aspect I would buy an Android device.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I would actually like to see Jolla in this community, and hopefully get support from them to keep things running etc. All the previous devices still benefit from this community, and a (hopefully successful) commercial product would bring more general life to the site, which I think would greatly help sustain the community.

...

What is this post doing in this thread wicket? I'm sure your points are valid, but please don't campaign against a product which has a place in the same community. You can post your list of reasons for supporting Neo900 ih the Neo900 thread in a positive manner instead. No need to try to disrupt the other platforms on here.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Yeah I see the Neo900 and Jolla device as quite complementary and if possible one should get both. :)

Eeach of them has its upsides and downsides, but all in both projects can help each other, even if indirectly by providing a true Linux based mobile alternative to the current platforms.

Also even though there are architectonic differences, both should be quite compatible (no botched libc like on Android; have DBUS, Qt, Python, ...) so stuff ported/developed for one of them should be quite easily ported to the other.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I'm very sorry if you and others have taken my post to be a campaign against Jolla, that certainly wasn't my intention.

I felt it was relevant to post here as I had high hopes for the Jolla device but ultimately it was their community failings which lead me away. There's nothing wrong with a bit of constructive criticism. I wish Jolla every success and if they can fix some of these issues by the time they bring out another device, perhaps they can tempt me next time around.

I feel my previous post is on topic and should stay in this thread but if mods disagree then please move it.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Just out of interest, please define community to me? :)

Re: About Sailfish community
 

What's going on with Sailfish bugtracker? Why is Jolla hesitant to open one?

Re: About Sailfish community
 

The question is: should the community spontaneously start one, or wait for them?

(we coiuld also probably ask them on twitter if they have anything against the idea?)

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I agree about the bugtracker. If the first devices that are in people's hands now are to be used as a beta testing ground before the "proper" launch later on this phase needs to be exploited to its fullest. I really see no downside to an open tracker. Maybe there's some weird conception about "broadcasting faults" in their products...

I also think any bugtracker should be administered by Jolla. If their heart isn't in it, there's no point.

I'm also a bit concerned about any community repositories. I've been trying to read up on that after being away a bit and saw the openrepos.net thread but... well, I'm just a bit worried by the lack of proactive action in this area by Jolla. What makes the N900 survive to this day is the community repositories and forums (apart from the device itself).

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Take devel away N900 is kill

Re: About Sailfish community
 

w00t did outline his personal reasons why he's not really for it in the #JollaLoveDay - 20th May thread IIRC about a wk or so ago.
I personally didn't agree with them, but I could respect/see his point...

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I think we should wait for Jolla to respond, but not too long. And if they'll decide not to make any bugtracker, then community should open one, to at least have one place to collect the bug reports.

The lack of bugtracker and a big chunk of closed components in Sailfish really raise some red flags. What about open development in the future? I hope Sailfish won't get Android like development with some code thrown over the fence once in a while. Jolla wanted to avoid Nokia's mistakes, not to repeat them.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

+1 from here. Though I have to say that individual employees are visibly trying to improve things.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

At this point there is at least this: http://piratepad.net/JollaFAQ
Wasn´t this actually created by w00t? =)

Re: About Sailfish community
 

BMO is up and running, I don't think anyone (from the maemo community) would object to add sailfish as a bug target.

Though, from what I've seen so far, seems that the jolla guys are simply not interested in any community behind sailfish. They should've done it in the neo900 way from the very beginning, maybe it is not too late to change now. I am not saying they should change the HW specifications because of a some post on TMO, but open communication with your primary target user group (no matter that they refuse to admit it, those with N900 and most of those with N9 that are active on TMO are that group) is a must IMO. At least while sailfish is still in a beta stage.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Sadly I suspect this is quite representative of most of their attitudes (there are some exceptions like w00t etc) towards maemo.org:
https://twitter.com/JediTWang/status/406184126555770880
It's pretty sad that many MeR/Nemo/Sailfish devs don't even appreciate/understand the community/ethos that is maemo.org/HFB/HFC.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I fail to see the relevance of whay you posted, that is your own tweet?

Re: About Sailfish community
 

It's rather easy if you try, the response to the initial tweet in that thread is from a Jolla employee...
This isn't the 1st time (far from it) I've come across Jolla folks who couldn't care less about leveraging/building-on maemo.org/HF, or (in some cases) don't even know what they are.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Some people know it well (Stskeeps, w00t and others). I'm not sure if they are the people who make decisions about building up the infrastructure though (like the bugtracker). That big post referenced in the beginning of this thread went in the right direction, but so far nothing came out of it.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

jalyst: you ought to be doing something else, so leave TMO for another day (you did ask us to tell you if we saw you!)

Re bug tracker, I believe Jolla has an internal one and for understandable reasons they don't want a public one, I believe it was manageability or something or other.

If I had a Jolla, I'd open tickets via zendesk for whatever is important for me... but I do appreciate the value of a public bug tracker, although I do appreciate the fact that it gets very busy very quickly and keeping an internal one may actually make things run faster in Jolla.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I didn't really see a clear explanation. Even Nokia had a public bug tracker for Harmattan! (Well, before it died out together with the system and Nokia's Linux efforts in general). Yeah, that can be tedious to manage, but it's the only functional way to engage community in the bug reporting, which also allows to see some progress on the bugs. Otherwise there will be a lot of unnecessary duplication, and inefficiency, which is even worse than keeping 2 bug trackers.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Yeap, I agree, perhaps implementing something cool like trac where you can keep some comments internal and filter out external comments so that Developers can focus on the internal QA team feedback etc. etc.?

Not sure what the level of effort to implement this would be, nor management effort.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

About bugzilla

Guys we cannot open right now a public bugtracker because if we do so nobody will read the bugs that you will open there and you will complain that nobody cares about the bugs you open and we will have 2 problems (having tons of bugs to read AND infuriated users) instead of 1 (not having a public bug tracker) :)

So we prefer to save you the effort of writing bugs that nobody will be able to reply to rather than give you an illusion and a delusion.

Opening a bugzilla instance and let it rot it's IMHO more offensive and way less professional.

When we will have the money and the amount of employees that Nokia had working on OSSO/Maemo/Meego (I was one of them) we will be able to hire Andre and make him bugmaster again.

We are working on opening a forum soon [TM] at least.

About this community

I know rather well (or I think I knew) maemo.org as I had root access to these (or those to be more precise) servers once upon a time. xfade is working with us and he knows even more than me this place.

I do not want nor I can deny some continuity between Maemo/MeeGo and Sailfish. But at the same time I can't avoid pointing out the discontinuity as well. Jolla is Jolla, Nokia was Nokia. Startup, Corp.

Some users might want to jump to new places, make it neo900 (great project BTW), Sailfish, BB10 or WP. Some users might want to stay here.

We (Jolla) are guests here and since we respect the rules of the house we don't want to disturb nor invade and will invite you to our new place when it's finished constructions. We are building it one bit at a time. It is slow and painful, I can't deny.

We are not putting you off nor belittling you. We are not idiots nor evil and we do understand the power of this (or we think we do)

"You have to have it now" "Everything and right away". That's not the real world sorry. Think that you have 1 euro and you are out of water and bread. And you have to chose what to buy at the market.

That's the kind of choice that we have to make everyday.

There is no way we in Jolla can have the same power and throughput of Nokia. Don't expect it. At least right now.

We are constantly doing our best to deliver you the best experience. Wherever that will be.

Each and every single employee (plus some interns) of the company has worked twice as much as they should have during the last period.

I understand if you tell me that "you best is not enough" you are the users and (possible) buyers of the device and you have all the rights to complain and demand. Still that device has blood and tears inside.

And I hope you will understand if I don't have time to read and reply to all of the posts in reply to this post. If you don't understand... well... that won't change the fact that I will not have time to do it :D

--
Stezz
CTO and co-founder @ Jolla

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Nice to hear your own forum opening soon*, and I respect how openly you communicate about these matters. Thank you.

*Soon is a trademark of Jolla ltd.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Thanks, makes sense, while copying over the bug db might've been doable it would most likely result in more work cleaning fixrd stuff and duplicates. Really appreciate you guys popping in here (even as guests if you feel like it, but once maemo you never go back. Check user agnet string :P)

Re: About Sailfish community
 

stezz: very good news re new forum where you'll be involved, and totally understand the lack of public tools.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Thanks for the elaborate response! Lack of resources is a valid reason to focus on the most critical efforts. Jolla/Sailfish forum would be very welcome, thanks for working on it!

Re: About Sailfish community
 

I'm pleased to see that the Jolla Hivemind™ (patent pending!) is working well, i.e. that you're thinking the same thing as I am, without my having talked to you about it at all that I recall :p

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Ah, no patents pending please ;) There is enough pain caused by that stuff, even potentially affecting the default Sailfish experience (such as Nokia's attacks on free codecs and the like).

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Don't worry. I'll only use it defensively, against the Reality Distortion Forcefield

... ok, that's my offtopic posting quota for the day done :D

Re: About Sailfish community
 

sigh, I hope not meego.com once again.

Most people are already here and I'd like to believe we've embraced your efforts and welcomed this device as much as all the maemo/meego ones, maemo.org is part of our daily lives, please don't split this community up, don't force developers to open support threads in two places like early harmattan days. One is bound to rot, and have the odd question left unanswered.

I know there were some sour talks a year ago, believe me, I had even more sour experiences with the same person. But now we are more than welcoming to be THE place where Sailfish users gather, to solve their problems, discuss, and most of all, have fun.

Please have a chat with our tmo-master, maybe a solution that makes everybody happy can be found.

Cheers and thanks for coming here and explaining.

M.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Yet another forum? No thank you.

ITT transformed into TMO, no problem. Then Meego.com came out, I signed up thinking it would be of the same spirit. Definitely not the case. It was damn near hostile there - don't ask this, don't talk unless you're a developer, don't bring prior questions up because they'll be addressed at a later (unsaid) date.

It was a place where the back patting went on between developers and everybody else felt like outsiders. I posted only 4 or 5 times there, never returned.

Good luck though. I'm sure the Jolla forum(s) will be a hit. I've just become jaded for unfortunate reasons.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Not only meego.com split from TMO didn't work for them, it actually ruined some TMO balance and as well a lot of good people left community :L

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Could we get our officially elected officials to have a friendly chat this time with Jolla instead of demanding attitude we got last time? Or maybe elections?

Re: About Sailfish community
 

Elections are going to happen anyway, pretty soon.

About the chat, I am open to chat anytime, and I am quite active and visible on IRC, as are AFAIK the other elected guys too.

In the particular forum case though, the right person to discuss with is chemist.

Re: About Sailfish community
 

First of, there are no much devices, so there is no reason there would be a lot of bug reports. Secondly, you do have to work on bugs, and you would have someone reading and getting all the mails, tweets and etc with same duplicated questions, so bug tracker actually would save your time and effort. As well as people here not only can report but as well provide patches, fixes and as well help with answers, marking duplicates and so on. You don't even need to pay them. They just bagging you to LET THEM HELP YOU! :)
As if you know (yeah you worked at nokia on maemo) there were many WONTFIX on Noka bugtrackers while devs here even provided patches for them. And you told us you don;t want to make same mistakes and you care and listen to community. But let's make it LESS TALKING, and more of ACTUALLY DOING!

You had root access, cool!!!! But TMO is not a computer, server or machine. You can't have root access to people. So i think you missed what is TMO and what it can do.
It's not Nokia forum and it was never Nokia forum. (DID YOU READ the arcticle at the first post on thread or not????)
They just provided infrastructure, and at some point they ditched us like they ditched OSS and a lot of devs(ex-nokians), we asked you for help at out hard times, and there was some misunderstanding.
Anyhow you didn't help out, but still community willing to help, to co-work. all you need to let them do what they know the best — being community. Most of fans ( and publicity in internet as well) for Jolla and i bet most pre-orders (your money) from this place, from TMO.
I get that you want to be in control of everything. You do not share, you do not co-work with community and you want admin(root access) to your own forum. But again, that's not a community, that's not make any difference from iPhone or Android. Both have *nix as base, but look where they are. You promised to do it other way and not make Nokia mistakes over again. So start paying attention. Even your closest supporters tell you that there is problem in your communication. And they give you all tools and solutions, but you find to do it "your own way". I understand that feeling of how cool it to create new company and product, but start thinking of future and start paying attention around, as as fast you started company it can fail even faster. The good intention is not enough. If it's just about selling product, you may get some share, but at some point you'll fail with giants like google as you need supporters, developers(native apps are must, otherwise why to buy not android phone for android apps) you need proper community. You have one here, yes it's not only about Jolla here and you are not in control here, but you can't be in control of community, otherwise it's called "using people for your needs".

Again, no one asks you to give everything and straight away. But if you do not communicate properly and do not cooperate with community, for sure people would assume you have everything under control. For example if neo900 would say we are releasing in 4 months and wouldn't update in progress everyone would assume they have finished product by then. Beta testing and co-working with community was always for help to each other, but now days it's only marketing move of getting fan boys and elitism IMHO, and i think no one would say a word if you would tell that product state is not finished and even you can't promise anything but at least you would share that you plan to support that... , to achieve this... and to deliver those.... Even if people do want to support you and do want you to succeed, but they want to be part of it as well, it can be writting history for us, as much as for you. As you might know there were great apps for maemo and harmattan, even OTA updates made by this community. They are excited not less than you. And they feel that this phone can be their baby in hack terms as for you in something you co-founded as company.
Even simple example as of MMS that you don't have. N900 didn't get MMS support as well, but our beloved frals made app for community, for free with the spirit. On other hand you doing your woodoo behind black doors. The point of geeks is knowledge, and knowledge is not only programing, administration or design skills, but also to know what is this product, how it was made and why it works that way and not the other way around.

Thx jollahq for those upper words... We can handle this

Do you know about way to connect forums through common api ?
Or some decentralized social networks protocol that can replace webforums?
Im investigating ...