Sailfish Android version update
 

Sailfish Android support will get an Android version number update as Jolla blog and SFOS 3 release info suggests. Will happily welcome it since some software I use has started to raise the bar beyond current version. Do you know what major version it will be?

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

probably 7.0 since they aim for 4.4 linux kernel for SFOS3

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

I agree completely with these sentiments: IMO Sailfish will never make it into the mainstream as an Android alternative without Android app support at least for the medium term.

Maybe you would like to contribute to my Wishlist for Android support in 2018 on TJC if you haven't already? <shameless plug> ;)

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

it'll be interesting to see if someone can get Android working via webassembly, heck I might give it a try.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

It all depends on how Jolla implements the Android support in the future releases. If they stick to AlienDalvik, we will be stuck on 4.4 forever since Dalvik was replaced by ART starting with Android 5. Furthermore, Myriad (the company from which Jolla licensed AlienDalvik) seems to have abandoned AlienDalvik, which is not much of a surprise since it's pretty old by now and support for Android 5+ probably needs a total redevelopment.

The only alternative for newer Android support seems to be Anbox, which look promising. But I'm not sure it's already stable enough to be used on productive devices.
We'll have to wait for more announcements from Jolla.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

I seriously doubt they'll use anbox. They've probably gotten the code from Myriad and have done the work themselves to make it work on a newer version of android.

Just because it's called Alien Dalvik doesn't mean the runtime engine is where all the work is done. Myriad had a version of it which further optimised the runtime engine but that wasn't used by Jolla. All the work is below that level, drawing to the screen, internet and sensor access, notifications etc. that's what is needed to get Android to work in Sailfish.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

well, that term is long gone now. And the effect of android support didn't bring anything to sailfish, in fact, it just did harm. Just look how many poeple ask for android support on unofficial ports :( So when you take away android apps from sailfish, what's left? As someone who moved to AOSP because my J1 died all I can say that I miss gestures and simplicity of OS as such. But that's it. From the app POV AOSP is just so much better. Apart for "it has terminal" freaks, sailfsh is great as some feature phone but "smart" part is nowhere near the year we live in. :(
It kind of reminds me of GNOME, I do like the workflow of gnome shell but gnome apps on the other hand.......

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

That's what I've been saying for at least four years. Android support literally killed Sailfish. Jolla itself as much as markets the OS as not much more than a shell for Android.

In case anyone is still in any doubt how self-deprecating Jolla is, just look at this screenshot of an autocomplete hints while typing Sailfish. I mean, come on!

Attachment 39883

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Ahh, we agree on so much, it nearly is a joy to disagree with you here, it got scary :)

So sailfish without Android would have been a success?

This is not quite fair, IMO you are skipping 4 years in the assumption a pure sailfish/linux/notAndroidorIOS system could have had any chance on the market.

Nokia killed that native linux chance in 2010, maybe even much earlier by false decisions.
Had they gone full meego at an ultra bold early point in time, your assumption could have worked for mobil linux. maybe.

In 2013 all trains where already long gone, most qt-devs reoriented to still make a living <insert all reasons for meego loosing 99% of traktion when nokia killed it>
Jolla rightfully saw no chance in going full native.
My feeling is we would have no sailfish at all without an app crouch but i would love to hear how it would have been possible.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Agree, android support has been like life boat for sailfish.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

:D

Glad to be of service :p

That depends on what you consider "success". It would certainly remain a niche product. Not that it is exactly mainstream now. It would limit the clientelle to those who are serious about an alternative, rather than just "bi-curious". Which I consider a good thing. The puzzled looks on absolutely everyone's face when I tried to sell them the idea of Sailfish with the main selling point that "don't worry, you can still run Android apps on it" was enough of an argument for me. Literally everyone just (righfully, IMO) asked, "why should I not just get an Android phone, then?".

There are also significant costs associated with Android support. Money spent on AD licencing could be saved or spent on something else. More importantly, the time and effort spent on supporting it could be used more productively on something else. For example, developing native apps (either in-house or by better supporting 3rd party devs) when there is no incentive now, because "Android is the answer to everything."

Lifeboat? Maybe. But lifeboats are not meant to be used! They are the last resort, not the first. If you design your ship in such a way that lifeboats are an integral part of its day-to-day operation right from the start, then you are doing something seriously wrong.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

So, android support is bad because you're a bad salesman? :D

For sure if all you want to do is run android apps you're going to be way better off just owning an android phone.

But Jolla is still around and this Jala partnership could bare some nice fruit so it's interesting that you consider Sailfish to be dead.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Granted, I am not the greatest salesman on earth. That's why I am not one in my daytime job. But it's not just me, Jolla itself markets Android support as the main selling point. "Hey, we have this wonderful new independent OS for you and look, it can run applications written for another OS, completely negating the very idea of a separate OS. So you may as well ignore us and use the other OS! Isn't that fantastic?"

I'll get my coat. This discussion is pointless. The damage has been done, there is no point arguing what could have been.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

pichlo makes a good point, it's the same as telling someone they should install a GNU/Linux distribution on their computer because they can still use all of their Windows software through Wine. It's a good stopgap for things where there is simply no alternative, but it shouldn't be a selling point. If Android had an interface designed for fingers and touch screens instead of a classic desktop point-and-click interface, there would be only two reasons left to convince people to use a Sailfish device: Sailfish gives you a terminal, and Sailfish is not owned by any of the American megacorporations. Just don't mention that the terminal also includes 10-year-old versions of everything because those are the last versions released with a GPLv2 license, and forget about any connections to other authoritarian regimes.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Agreed, it is pointless and off-topic.

I for one would love to have an updated alien dalvik so I can make use of the few apps that are not there in a native form.

Hopefully the future will give us more webapps that you can use on any platform.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

@pichlo says it all, no need for me to come in and muddle things! :)

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

It does remind me a bit of OS/2; it had an excellent compatibility layer that let it run Windows applications (in some cases better than Windows itself). As a result, relatively few native OS/2 applications were written (because why write it twice if you can just write a windows application and have it run on both platforms?).

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

The one incentive I can think of for writing a native application would be the possibility that you could write an application that would work on Linux/Qt across the board. Unfortunately Jolla killed that possibility by keeping Sailfish Silica components closed, effectively making Sailfish a proprietary platform. I'm not sure which was more damaging, enabling Android apps or closing Sailfish Silica, but I doubt that either had a positive effect.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

but we don't need that. We don't need mobile apps that can work/be ported to desktop. I wish there is just 10% of desktop choice for sailfis. And closed silica is not the reason why there isn't. And it didn't stop Meteora softworks to make the best music player for sailfish. That I had to buy outside of official store. :rolleyes:
Just because something is OSS doesn't mean much. Look at Signal and what happened when guys wanted to create a sailfish version. Or Telegram. Or.....
And we do have all that on desktop. Even if it is crappy Electron, but it's there.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

The Signal developers have since adopted a less aggressive approach. Either way there was no way they could ever have blocked access to third party clients, because the third party clients could just pretend to be the official one.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Ah..... great. So, where is the Signal app for sailfish then? :D
The way peole communicate has changed. A lot. And the lack of modern ways of communication on sailfish is a BIG problem when it comes to new users. The same way we laughed to iphone users way back when they couldn't send files over BT they can laugh now and tell us to use mail for chatting.
Let me put it this way, I don't like SUVs (unlike my wife) but in the end every manufacturer gave in and they have at least one model because market want StupidUselessVehicles.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Right here, it's been there for about two years now.

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What's the problem with Telegram? As far as I know, their API is free to use. And the Sailfish client (Sailorgram) works altho the original developer has stopped developing it.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

The server side code isn't free and the encryption protocol is pure nonsense (and I think conversations aren't even encrypted by default). They've also managed to set up their own version of the cryptocoin scam (there's that word again!), raking in more than 1700000000 USD for a few canisters of hot air.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Could you tell a bit more about it? Source pls?

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Lack of server source code: https://telegram.org/apps#source-code

Lack of security: https://security.stackexchange.com/q...re/49802#49802

Turns out indeed nothing is ever end-to-end-encrypted on Telegram by default, which is made exponentially worse by the fact that they've now effectively given the Russian government backdoor access to everything: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ncryption-keys

Coins and money: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/1/17...tocurrency-ton

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

They didn't give any keys. That's why they're being blocked right now in Russia.

PS I don't think Telegram is secure, as well as whatsapp/viber/signal/you name it. If an app asks for your phone number - it is not secure, no matter what. It means they want money, one way or another.

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Let me guess, you use exclusively phone calls, SMS and mails to communicate... Oh so do I by the way haha ;-p

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I use jabber for IM.

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I never said that Telegram is secure. For really confidential communication i would use encrypted emails, xmpp etc.

But: With Telegram I can choose which client i can use. Whatsapp has blocked our Harmattan / Sailfish / Maemo clients every time, they banned me for using non-conform client. So this is no go for me.

Telegram might be a bad, insecure messenger, but they are much more sympathic to me, than WA. And the fact, that Roskomnadzor banned them in RUS, makes them one more time sympathic to me

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Make no mistake. They might be blocking it, so that people may think just like you :)

When in reality, FSB might have a direct channel to telegram servers :) you never know.

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what do we ever know anyway? I mean, they take our fingerprints, more than half of the sate related stuff is now digital even in a ******** like HR. Public "safety" camers are everyvhere, we get traffic ticket just like that because of .again, cameras. We end up on someone else FB or instacrap just beceause we were there. Again, cameras all over. I don't see chats as the biggest issue when it comes to privacy.

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Exactly. So in my opinion nobody should delegate their privacy to companies. They exist not for your pleasure and freedom.

Wanna do it good - do it yourself.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

So I was pretty much right with Alien Dalvik, they've gotten the appropriate licenses to work on and maintain Alien Dalvik themselves.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

great........ so it's just a matter of time when android compatibility will take more working hours than sailfish OS :( Or we will end up with just a sailfish launcher for android :eek:

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

With respect to messaging/communication, it seems to me that matrix is the best hope at the moment, even if it isn't quite there yet. Unfortunately the most comfortable way to use matrix on Sailfish is still Riot.im under Alien Dalvik, and even then there are problems with notifications. Maybe the Transponder project will improve things, although the author seems to be too busy with other things at the moment to progress it.

Do you have a source for this? (I've looked around to see if you have quoted anything elsewhere, but didn't find anything. Sorry if I have missed it.)

Although I understand the reasons for this kind of sentiment, I worry that we are missing a golden opportunity. 2018 is the best year for talking about privacy to the general public that we have had for quite some time. I believe that FB and friends will be actively working to keep the subject out of public view from now on. It may be several years before the issue hits the headlines again.

My personal belief is that the nature of the current Android support is the worst of both worlds, because it makes things highly unpredictable for people like me who use it. Some apps don't work at all, and some only partially work. As Android apps are upgraded, the functionality degrades, or they stop working completely from one day to the next. Downgrading to an earlier version doesn't always help: changes in APIs mean that the earlier versions may stop working once the newer versions are released. Going forward, there are really only two options for Android app support that make sense if we want adoption of Sailfish to increase. Either:

* kill it off completely now, or:

* upgrade it now so that more apps work with it, even if the long term plan is to kill it off

I don't see how the first of these options would result in a lot of useful native apps suddenly being developed. I don't think that any current or future services would be developed for app-free mobile browser use just to support Sailfish either. Who would switch to Sailfish from Android then? Sailfish would remain a niche product, and eventually go the way of WebOS (my very first smartphone was a WebOS one BTW, and I still regret its demise).

I believe that it is possible to make a case for Sailfish + Android compatibility like this:

* Privacy problems are built into consumer Android. You can choose whether or not to run particular apps on Android, but the privacy concerns are always there. If you choose Sailfish instead, you will be better off than with Android as far as privacy is concerned.

* There are quite a few Android apps around that are written to address privacy concerns, and that use this as a selling point[1]. Even if you don't feel like researching this yourself, you may well hear about privacy-respecting apps and services in the general media. People you know who are technically knowledgeable might also advise. Running these kind of apps on Sailfish means that your phone really isn't telling Google what you are up to.

If more people take up Sailfish, then more native apps might be developed for it. (It would help if in-app payments were possible as well of course, but that is another topic.) This may strike some of you as idealistic, but talking the possibility down probably makes it less likely to happen.

A lot depends on what Jolla wants of course. If they are not interested in enabling widespread adoption, then it definitely won't happen. If they are, then I still think that improved Android compatibility is needed for a step change in uptake of Sailfish in the medium term.

Sorry about the length of this post, but I wanted to set all this out as clearly as I could, even though I know that many of you won't be convinced ;)

[1] Without specifically endorsing any of them, here are a couple of examples of Android apps for messaging services that do seem to pay more than lip service to user privacy: Wickr, Wire, Hoccer. My hope for the future is matrix of course, but we will see.

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

Android / alien licencies mentioned here. Foss north
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tFF_cY6e-IQ

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James says so in the meeting, around 08:31:03;
http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-m...08.00.log.html

Re: Sailfish Android version update
 

I ask on the last Community meeting on Thursday if they are going to update AlienDalvik to support newer Android versions or if they plan to switch to another runtime. Here are the quotes from the log juiceme already linked:

Personally, I still see the Android support as a big advantage of SFOS. Unfortunately, more and more companies are going "app first" or even "app exclusive" which normally only includes apps for iOS and Android. Since both platforms are privacy nightmares, SFOS with AlienDalvik could be the third option to run those apps without giving up all your data.
Of course, this requires two changes at the moment: support for newer Android version and app permission management to restrict the access of those apps. But it seems that both is on the roadmap and will be available in 2.2 at some time.

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What you don't take into consideration here is that if you get an app as given, your security is already busted. Regardless of what the platform is.

If you install any random binary-only application to your device you will grant it at least user-level system access to your device, in some cases even root-level access. (and for most systems it is enough to have user-level access as there are new privilige escalation holes all the time...)

The only possible safe way is that the service provider publishes a sane API and the applications using it are provided in source form to be compiled by oneself. Binary distribution can be allowed if the sources are available and mechanism for reproducible build verification exists.