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-   Nokia N900 (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   N900 will not allow USB OTG! (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31921)

debernardis 2009-09-21 04:40
N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
This is a brand new thread to discuss (and hopefully find a workaround) for the *fact* that the N900 does not allow USB OTG mode at the hardware level.

Here Quim Gil firstly admits this problem (it was Sept 20th):

Quote:
The N900 doesn't support USB host mode and the limitation comes at hardware level. Igor Stoppa and myself provide more details at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...er/020830.html.
...which is detailed here:

Quote:
On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:44 +0200, Gil Quim (Nokia-D/Helsinki) wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > > > I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to
> use the
> > > > usb port. I have the following question.
> > > > When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide
> power does
> > > > it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host
> mode?
>
> The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the
> limitation comes at hardware level.

I can confirm this. The most reasonable setup would have been to provide
the A connector, but only gadget mode working forthe sales release, then
in a SW update to provide full spectrum support.

Then enters the USB certification with all its mass of quite often
bizantine, obsolete and plain braindead requirements.

One of them being that the certification with A connector can be passed
only if full functionality is provided by the SW.

In this case I propose that complaints are directed to the USB
consortium. I have really come to doubt that it's actually protecting
the consumers' interests in nowadays scenario.

> The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support
> for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same
> Micro USB port within the project deadlines.

Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development
and needed workarounds.

> We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and
> concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to
> the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time.

Although noone really liked the choice we had to make. We do use our
products and as consumers we are aware of the limitations sometimes we
have to apply.

--

Cheers, Igor

---

Igor Stoppa
Maemo Software - Nokia Devices R&D - Helsinki
Is there a possibility for a software-only solution?

Or, what external hardware could solve the basic problem of - at least - connecting a usb flash/hd/whatever memory to the n900?

Please discuss.

Thesandlord 2009-09-21 04:45
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Seems like there is not USB OTG. However, this is quite similar to the n800 and the 770.

"only if full functionality is provided by the SW"

What does that mean? Does the actual hardware support USB host like the N810 and N800? Is a software switch enough to change it to host mode?

qole 2009-09-21 04:51
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
The word from Nokia seems pretty definitive, guys. You're going to have to use Bluetooth or Wifi or some other protocol (infrared?) to communicate with external devices.

debernardis 2009-09-21 04:53
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Do you know of external bluetooth/wifi/telepathic readers for usb sticks?

sachin007 2009-09-21 05:02
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
So is there any mobile device which charges via the usb and still allows usb host mode?

qole 2009-09-21 05:06
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 330504)
Do you know of external bluetooth/wifi/telepathic readers for usb sticks?
No. But I know you can get small USB microSD card readers. Here's one for the price of a Starbucks latte from a store near me.

You buy a microSD card, put it in the reader, and use it as a USB stick on computers everywhere you go.

When you want to take things from the USB stick and put them on your N900, you can pop off the back of the device, pop in the microSD card, and read the data (copy it to the internal 32 GB if you need the slot again).

No, it's not ideal. But it will do.

I do most of my file transfer to/from my mobile devices via sftp these days, anyway.

debernardis 2009-09-21 05:12
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Yes that's the case when you have to move files from one machine to another.

The other also important and frequent use case is when you're on the move and you *have* to read a file from a usb thumb drive someone's handing you. Or write. This happened to me several times, with perfect response from my n810 tablet.

How can we solve that?

debernardis 2009-09-21 05:15
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Mobidapter

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/backe...obidapter1.jpg

Ugly as hell, but might work?

http://mobile.allaboutsymbian.com/re...Mobidapter.php

qgil 2009-09-21 05:16
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sachin007 (Post 330507)
So is there any mobile device which charges via the usb and still allows usb host mode?
"via the Micro-USB", to be more precise.

Following with some reactions in the N900 Specifications thread:

There is no doubt that most users (even most Maemo target users) would prefer saving cables and having one single standard interface for charging over USB OTG.

Note that a separate charging port doesn't only mean more cables, but also more volume and complexity in the design of the device. If you think "it's only a small slot!" is because you (like me) are not really into engineering mobile hardware.

You can't connect a camera in host mode, but the N900 comes with a good camera. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

You can't connect a hard drive in host mode, but the N900 comes with a big internal memory expandable with a MicroSD card. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.

vkv.raju 2009-09-21 05:20
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 330510)
Yes that's the case when you have to move files from one machine to another.

The other also important and frequent use case is when you're on the move and you *have* to read a file from a usb thumb drive someone's handing you. Or write. This happened to me several times, with perfect response from my n810 tablet.

How can we solve that?
You echo my concerns. Exactly, how about when on the move? Also, not everyone's router support USB drives :(:mad:

I have used this feature and liked that on my N800.

vkv.raju 2009-09-21 05:25
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 330513)
"via the Micro-USB", to be more precise.

Following with some reactions in the N900 Specifications thread:

There is no doubt that most users (even most Maemo target users) would prefer saving cables and having one single standard interface for charging over USB OTG.

Note that a separate charging port doesn't only mean more cables, but also more volume and complexity in the design of the device. If you think "it's only a small slot!" is because you (like me) are not really into engineering mobile hardware.

You can't connect a camera in host mode, but the N900 comes with a good camera. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

You can't connect a hard drive in host mode, but the N900 comes with a big internal memory expandable with a MicroSD card. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.
Thats what I thought too and have mentioned here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31005&page=36 (#355)

Nokia is defining an upgrade path. Don't like!

Otaku 2009-09-21 05:27
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 330512)
Mobidapter
IIRC, I think that won't work on the n900 because the n900 has an internal connector inside the case where you insert the microSD, not an externally-accessible slot. So it seems there's no way to connect the bulky Mobidapter.

UCOMM 2009-09-21 05:50
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkv.raju (Post 330517)
Thats what I thought too and have mentioned here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31005&page=36 (#355)

Nokia is defining an upgrade path. Don't like!
every company has an upgrade path, nokias mistake was in letting the avg person see that

bocaJ 2009-09-21 05:51
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku (Post 330519)
IIRC, I think that won't work on the n900 because the n900 has an internal connector inside the case where you insert the microSD, not an externally-accessible slot. So it seems there's no way to connect the bulky Mobidapter.
The previous QA said that it was hot-swapable, so while you might have to take off the back-plate, wouldn't you still be able to use this?

Also, does anyone know if there's some sort of BT to USB adapter?

icebox 2009-09-21 05:55
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Hm, I was convinced that the n900 despite the reserve on battery life is the best hacker device out there... That idea just went out the window...

I was prepared to accept a cut back in screen size, size, battery life just not on features over my old n800.

OTOH maybe we could solder our own host usb port ?

debernardis 2009-09-21 05:56
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
I don't know which position has the microsd slot on the n900 but imho the mobidapter could be used only if the port is on a side of the device, otherwise there would be no space to make it enter inside.

Anyone with the real thing, please confirm if the Mobidapter plunge could be inserted, or is the slot recessed and can't be reached?

Otaku 2009-09-21 06:01
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Good point, but in practice, if someone asks me to read a USB stick, it would be a bit awkward to pop the back plate of the phone, stick in the Mobidapter and the USB stick, and somehow hold the device so the screen is visible without the Mobidapter falling out and damaging the connector in the process. What I could imagine working is if you jury-rigged a ribbon cable connector from the Mobidapter that could then be fed into the n900 internal connector. Still would look pretty Frankenstein-ish, though.

The idea of a BT to USB adapter, if one exists, sounds much better.

sachin007 2009-09-21 06:01
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 330513)
"

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.
When you mean future releases, do you mean hardware or software releases? If you mean software then i would assume the community can come up with something similar?

debernardis 2009-09-21 06:03
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
The microsd slot seems unfit for the mobidapter

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/...n900/pic25.jpg

Unless you hack some kind of flat cable from the mobidapter to a dummy microsd to fit in the slot.

qole 2009-09-21 06:03
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
EDIT: That's eerie, that debernardis and I would post the same picture at the same time, with the same comment following it!

Here's a pic of the internal microSD slot from the infamous mobile-review first look article:

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/...n900/pic25.jpg

We'll have to wait for craves1 to build us some kind of adapter thing, I guess... An adapter that goes in the microSD slot with a cable that snakes out of the case, with a plug for an external mobidapter-type device.

Otaku 2009-09-21 06:04
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 330527)
I don't know which position has the microsd slot on the n900 but imho the mobidapter could be used only if the port is on a side of the device, otherwise there would be no space to make it enter inside.

Anyone with the real thing, please confirm if the Mobidapter plunge could be inserted, or is the slot recessed and can't be reached?
The internal card connector position is shown here:

http://mynokiablog.files.wordpress.c...pg?w=550&h=412

In case a direct image link doesn't work, the corresponding article is here: http://mynokiablog.com/2009/09/14/no...e-pics-inside/

EDIT: Sorry, I'm on a slow connection - I see that others already posted this information :)

icebox 2009-09-21 06:13
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku (Post 330528)
Good point, but in practice, if someone asks me to read a USB stick, it would be a bit awkward to pop the back plate of the phone, stick in the Mobidapter and the USB stick, and somehow hold the device so the screen is visible without the Mobidapter falling out and damaging the connector in the process. What I could imagine working is if you jury-rigged a ribbon cable connector from the Mobidapter that could then be fed into the n900 internal connector. Still would look pretty Frankenstein-ish, though.

The idea of a BT to USB adapter, if one exists, sounds much better.
Carrying a bag of adapters kinda defeats both the purpose of mobile computing and the original ideea that separate charging and usb ports mean more cables :)

qole 2009-09-21 06:33
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Just had a thought. There's a compact USB to BT adapter that most of us already have: our current NITs.

If this issue is the only thing keeping you from leaving the laptop at the office, then I suggest throwing your n8x0 and your OTG adapter in your briefcase for just such situations.

Make sure your Maemo devices are already paired and copy the data over BT.

Someone needs to write a Diablo app for this purpose!

debernardis 2009-09-21 06:45
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qole (Post 330539)
Make sure your Maemo devices are already paired and copy the data over BT.

Someone needs to write a Diablo app for this purpose!
sshfs is your friend? ;)

Though I'd LOVE to bring less stuff with me and still be ready for anything :cool:

qobi 2009-09-21 06:46
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Will the N900 (hardware and software) support using it as a 3G modem for a laptop, tethering to the laptop by USB? by WiFi? by bluetooth? USB and/or WiFi is prefered over bluetooth since they support higher bandwidth and (perhaps) lower latency. (I tether my v9m to my laptop over USB and bluetooth and get 3G. I'd like to replace it with an N900.)

Otaku 2009-09-21 07:23
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
As long as we're considering solutions that require an extra device, this device can do file transfers between two USB mass storage devices: http://reviews.cnet.com/hubs/sima-hi...-31997849.html

The article is from 2006 so there may be newer, smaller versions out by now.

range 2009-09-21 07:28
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qole (Post 330539)
If this issue is the only thing keeping you from leaving the laptop at the office, then I suggest throwing your n8x0 and your OTG adapter in your briefcase for just such situations.

Make sure your Maemo devices are already paired and copy the data over BT.
That sounds painfully slow if you want to copy more than one or two word documents.

debernardis 2009-09-21 07:33
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otaku (Post 330549)
As long as we're considering solutions that require an extra device, this device can do file transfers between two USB mass storage devices: http://reviews.cnet.com/hubs/sima-hi...-31997849.html

The article is from 2006 so there may be newer, smaller versions out by now.
Quite expensive - Qole's suggestion is cheaper :)

http://www.amazon.com/Sima-USB-101-D...61203435/ref=p

tso 2009-09-21 07:38
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
in this day and age, i am surprised that there is no adapter made that does usb to bluetooth and runs of a AA or two...

vkv.raju 2009-09-21 07:46
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tso (Post 330558)
in this day and age, i am surprised that there is no adapter made that does usb to bluetooth and runs of a AA or two...
Huge file transfers over bluetooth can be slower! Also, that device may not be even cheap! But again, I may take that as a solution, though not happily!

debernardis 2009-09-21 07:47
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Why not wi-fi ad-hoc networking between the n900 and the n8xx instead that bluetooth?

lma 2009-09-21 07:54
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
That would also work, but drain the battery a lot more than bluetooth (no power saving in ad-hoc mode).

JayOnThaBeat 2009-09-21 07:58
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
A mobile computer should have usb host.

*sticking with my N810*

debernardis 2009-09-21 08:08
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 330566)
That would also work, but drain the battery a lot more than bluetooth (no power saving in ad-hoc mode).
It would be on just for the time of accessing those files on the usb stick, so hopefully the drainage would be minimal.

All these workarounds are kludgy at best.

Damn'... I need a real n900 to convince it (with the use of force if necessary) to do host mode :)

quingu 2009-09-21 08:15
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
That Pandora I ordered in march and canceled last week...

it's laughing and pointing at me... swinging its full-size usb plug-equipped butt...

tso 2009-09-21 08:45
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 330563)
Why not wi-fi ad-hoc networking between the n900 and the n8xx instead that bluetooth?
because wifi on its own is just a carrier of protocols?

bluetooth on the other hand already has protocols for file transfers built in, and more.

oh, and was there not talk about using a wifi radio to carry bluetooth traffic when speed was really important?

how about this:
take the mifi variant that has a micro-SD slot, replace with (or add alongside) a full size USB-A host port and bluetooth over wifi...

icebox 2009-09-21 08:58
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
no usb host also means no external usb wireless stick, no usb ethernet adapter, no usb keyboard, no cf cardreader and that's harder to fix ...

debernardis 2009-09-21 09:04
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
I'd like to understand why exactly the hardware doesn't allow otg.
Not that I'm sure I have neurons enough to cope... But if somebody is going to explain I'd be grateful.

flareup 2009-09-21 09:18
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat (Post 330567)
A mobile computer should have usb host.

*sticking with my N810*
Absolutely!

this is a PHONE, not a mobile computer, nor a continuation of the NIT line.

accept it everybody! I have. sticking with 810 til something with form factor appears that substantially upgrades it in performance.

tso 2009-09-21 09:18
Re: N900 will not allow USB OTG!
 
otg is one thing, true host is another...


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