Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I recently found that a lot of community-, device-, Maemo- or Nokia-related threads disappear from my radar because they get dumped in the "Off Topic" section.

As I type this, the first two pages in "Off Topic" includes threads such as:

• Poll: Will this be your last Nokia product?
• N900 will be history in 6months!
• Nokia Q42009 and whole 2009 Finacial Results Call (live webcast )
• Poll: Nokia Internet Tablets Poll: What do you own?
• Left IT at home
• Women Executives at Nokia (Multi-page thread 1 2 )
• Is nokian910.com an official site?
• Q4 2009 N900s Shipped Sweepstake
• linux on nokia booklets
• I offer myself as developer if..
• Network, Country, Plan, Price?
• N900 is made for TRUE MEN!!
• n900 criticism
• Erroneous update notifications from "My Nokia"
• I hate when articles mislead people on the N900
• ARToolkit...
• round 1 Nokia wins :)
• Whats your ringtone
• Bug 55378008 - bugteam overworked

Most of them should be in "General", some in "Community", a lot in "N900", one or two even in "Maemo 5".

What's going on here? Is this a hidden spam filter going nuts? Please keep threads that aren't off topic at all out of the "Off Topic" section.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I have presented this issue to the moderator/admin group.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

i only noticed a few that should be off topic. the others have nothing to do with the n900. what exactly is the criteria for off topic? rumors about new phones, ringtones, phone plans etc, are they not off topic?

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

It depends-- and largely on how broad an individual's scope is for what's ON topic.

I see anything Nokia-specific as on topic of some sort, and same goes for new devices, phone plans, etc. Off Topic to me is the weather, jokes, family, etc. But some obviously disagree. That's why I'm trying to get moderator consensus. One way or another we need this resolved, and made clear. I'd even go so far as to add a bit more text to the subforum descriptions.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

The question I wonder is how many of those were moved off-topic by a mod.. and how many were started in off topic by users..

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

exactly. the point is: this community shares a common interest in maemo, maemo devices, using maemo devices, the future of maemo, .... - things like data plans and ring tones are about using maemo devices. nokias plans for symbian and nokias market share are about the future of maemo devices. articles spreading rumors about maemo, nokia sending false update notifications (!),... how could any of that be off topic? if even android and apple is considered on topic, because there's a sub-forum "competitors"?

"off topic" can only be things that really have no relation to maemo, nokia, the daily use of maemo and maemo devices etc etc. - when i find a performance of "kristina fran duvemala" on youtube and want to share it with you, that's off topic.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Off-topic is a place where you are less likely to be flamed for posting, which makes it attractive.

Did you know that overcrowded rats get into a state in which they devour the first one that moves? True.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

As human's we are more civilized.

I'll start the vote:

I say we eat geneven. Takers? :D

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I'm concerned he may be bitter and overripe.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Wow. Sounds like this thread itself should be moved to of-topic :p

On a serious note, I think the labelling and clear classification would be a good idea, but I don't see it solving the issue completely (when do people ever read instructions, anyway)...

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I get the impression people aren't sure what to do with Nokia-but-not-specifically-maemo threads, which many of these are. Could we have a general 'Nokia' forum or sub-forum?

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

That, young man, is how babies are made.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Why doesn't General work? I'm genuinely curious.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

There seems to be a feeling that 'general'='general maemo'. I've seen people complained at for starting Nokia threads there and the mods seem to move them out. If that's where they belong (which would work for me) then make it obvious.

There's also been an assumption of late that anything remotely light-hearted belongs in off topic. The 'n900 is for real men' thread is an example. This was not so even a couple of months ago. I find it sad, but suspect it's a reaction to comments about Noise.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I have moved a few of those myself. It's a problem with the current structure of the forum. N900 is supposed to be a hardware forum, Maemo 5/ Fremantle is a platform/OS forum, and there are fora for competitors and etc.

Many if not most of the threads started in N900 don't really fit the currently defined description of the N900 forum, and thus get moved. I'm not just referring to my own actions here, i'm talking about all the mods.

For whatever reason, most of them don't get moved to general. I guess it's because the definition of what goes in general is ambiguous.

So, as i said, this is a problem with the structure of the forum. Perhaps a "lighthearted" subforum would be useful? That, or a consensus that the million unuseful N900 topics that are nevertheless nominally about the N900 should go in General.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I thought Offtopic was the "lighthearted" forum... :-)

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Well, that's why i move those there. ;)

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Lol what we actually need is "Flame Nokia Here" forum.. That would clear out about 80% of the kind of "off-topic" Threads from Maemo Talk... :D

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

It really is true.

Actually, Texrat proposed a "Complaints" subforum that would serve as the resting place for threads like that, unless the complaint turns out to be specific and accurate and constructive, in which case they could then be moved to the appropriate forum. I think it's an excellent idea.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Please don't think I'm criticising the mods! You have a heck of a task with the way this place has exploded population-wise.

But I do think the forum strucutre could be made clearer about what belongs where. In fact, greater clarity might take some of the strain off mods. I know some of that is under discussion in the Brainstorm forum - ways of adhusting the forum so that people know what goes where.

For example, when I was Very New, there was a thread in General titled "Iphone is for girls" and I countered with "n900 is for girls" (which actually proved a very useful thread that came up with the idea for the mirror app!) Now, however, we have a discussion about the dimensions of n900 under the title of 'n900 is for REAL men' which the poster clearly felt belonged in Off Topic as it was lighthearted.

Some things are obvious: a pie-throwing thread (or in this place more likely a pi-throwing thread) would be Off topic. But threads about Nokia seem homeless. So do 'general chat' type threads about n900, being neither hardware nor software. Perhaps the mods could get together in that secret forum of theirs and decide what belongs where, and then ask Reggie to change the forum descriptions to be as obvious as possible. :)

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

The problem I see is that the "Off Topic" becomes a sort of penal camp for threads that don't live up to somebody's (arbitrary and subjective) quality standards. The title "Off Topic" isn't just a row of letters... it means something. It means what it says: off topic. And it's described as "Totally unrelated but still worth discussing."

I can't do anything else than repeat:
How can topics about Maemo, Maemo applications, Maemo devices and the only manufacturer of Maemo devices (who happens to have created Maemo and distribiutes it and keeps it alive) can be "totally unrelated"?

I could live with a "Nokia" sub-forum side by side with the "General" forum, although I don't see how it's necessary... I mean, come on: Maemo stuff usually goes into the Maemo-[version-number]-subforum, device-specific stuff goes to the device-subforum, application specific... you get the picture. I don't see a real need for yet another sub-forum. There's probably even too many of them. - Still, it's a lot better than throwing these on-topic threads together with "I love my kitten so much!" threads @ "Off Topic".

It's more than sad... It's kind of bizarre. People who don't like noise shouldn't come to a place with 1,982 concurrent users in the first place. There are quiet invite-only places for such people.

Anything "light-hearted" is what makes me come here. I talk to people here, I don't operate robots. If threads like "n900 is for real men" are not welcome in the N900-subforum (hello??!! anybody listening? N900-subforum, N900-thread? does this ring a bell?), we should seriously consider changing the forum descriptions:

• Maemo 5 / Fremantle
  Boring, miserable and dull stuff about the current release, codenamed Fremantle.
• Nokia N900
  Boring, miserable and dull hardware-specific discussions about the fourth generation of Internet Tablets.
• General
  Anything that's so convincingly boring, miserable and dull that it shouldn't be tied to a specific program, OS or device.
• Off Topic
  You have fun with your Maemo device? Come here.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

That gets my vote. When can we implement it? :D

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I'll try to explain my point of view:

I believe a lot of people feel insulted that some of their threads are getting downgraded to "Off-Topic" even though the initial thread had a valid point.

The problem (that I'm facing, I'm not speaking for other mods), is that we have to make decisions regarding the noise-to-signal ratio. I don't believe that a thread such as "N900 is for real men" deserves to be in the N900 sub forum: it doesn't discuss the hardware, it doesn't discuss *anything* specific to the N900. It's just a conglomeration of sexist comments, that don't add *anything* of value *AT ALL* !!!

If anyone believes that "Men DONT care about the SIZE!" "That's what she said!" "And no, she ain't got bigger balls than I do" is anywhere related to Maemo, maybe you should try to reconsider what Maemo means to you. (those are direct quotes from a thread that in the opinion
of benny1967 should be in the N900 forum).

Please don't judge a book by its cover. The same rules for threads. Don't judge its "on-topicness" based solely on the thread name. If there are 3 useful posts, followed by 3 pages worth of discussion about the US Patent Office, I'm utterly sorry, but I'm tempted to just bunk the whole thing out of the window. And this is only one example.

I would like to see threads that only discuss one specific subject and die out once the topic has been taken care of. Having 2 billion "me too" messages doesn't help. Having half a million "nokia sucks" posts doesn't help. Yes, moderators could spend their time splitting off-topic posts from on-topic threads, but quite frankly I'm not going to do that.

If you want threads to remain on topic, then just moderate the thread yourself. If you are unhappy about a moderator's decision, just yell about it, and in most cases it will get canceled, or superseded. But please don't tell us what to do when the only thing you judge upon is the name of the thread.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Thank you!

Maybe it really helps to discuss the examples, not abstract concepts. Let's stay with this "true men" thread for a while:

The size of the N900 is what many people criticize when they see the device. Reviews say it's too big. Ahmed360 started a thread with a post that basically says: "To hell with all this talk about 'too big'. It's not, it's fine with me, and if you're a real man you don't mind the size..." (implying, of course, that you maybe are even proud of the buldge in your trousers.)

It's a statement about what he thinks about the device. Just as "The N900 is total crap" or "I love my N900 because it's black".
It should be in "N900".

About your "add *anything* of value *AT ALL* "-comment:
Well, probaby you're right, other than stating that the size of the device is fine for him, he doesn't add anything "of value".
But this is a forum, not a scientific research center. We talk here. It's not required to add anything of value. Posting screenshots of your N900 desktop doesn't add anything of value either. Still I love it when people do it. And because it's about their N900-desktop, it goes int he N900-section. As go discussions about the size of the device.


This is something I just don't understand. I don't see the benefit of moving threads around (or splitting them) only because they derail on page 3. Anyone who follows a thread from the beginning will notice that now everything is said about the original topic and people now start drinking and chatting. So what? No harm done. Many will even join in and enjoy the party.
Still, the first 3 posts were on topic and remain on topic and there's no need for anybody to interfere.

The "I would like to see threads that only discuss one specific subject and die out once the topic has been taken care of"-part scares me, actually.
I better not say anything about it other than I don't want to be part of a community (it wouldn't be a community then, would it?) that's being handled that way.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I respectfully disagree, but in order to get things going, I'll let other community members add to this point.

I think this is where is the main misconception. In my mind, this forum is here to help people, to discuss things which will later help other people. This is true for the specifics of the hardware, this is true when referencing what applications allows to do what, and what the limitations are in different areas. I'm fine with all that. Even if bugs were being thoroughly discussed in Maemo 5 (Fremantle), I'd be absolute fine with it (as b.m.o isn't the place for that).

Now, this doesn't mean that the forum as a whole should be a dump. No, making a thread for the sole purpose of implying things about male anatomy isn't anything on-topic. It's downright outrageous anyone could believe that. It's not something that people will find useful later on, it's not something that's noteworthy. It's just someone who had a bit of a laugh, and shared it on a medium. A medium shaped to that effect: Off-Topic subjects.

Posting screenshots add a huge value to a forum. It allows newcomers to see what is possible. It allows people to understand how good, how hackable, how different our platform is. Again, if someone falls in the "share your screenshot" thread from Google, they will have useful information (images) readily available.

Wrong. A forum is supposed to be a repository of information, at least that's how I see it. Again, from a new user perspective, the people who are searching for information, being able to find information quickly and precisely, without having to weed through tons of utterly useless posts is an important thing. If we do not hold ourselves against such a code, a simple code of forum hygiene, we are going to end up with the same issues, bugs, problems, and questions being brought up again, and again, and again.

Excepted that now, people will keep going off-topic, and will keep increasing the noise-to-signal ratio, until at some point, nobody has a single clue about what the thread was about originally. How many people browse the forum by clicking on the small arrow leading to the last post? How many people look at the outcome of a specific thread before looking at the beginning. I'm betting a lot of people do. Why spend time reading through a thread which may turn out being pretty boring, right? This means that the subject of the thread is led by the back of the pack, which is completely unnatural. On the odd occasion you'll have the lone user who responds to the first thread after half the war is over, but those posts are forgotten and washed away by the off-topicness of the whole thing.

It's not being handled that way. Half the stuff is anarchy, because we (the moderators) scared of being too restrictive. Why would you be scared of having a tidy forum? Why is having a forum where posts remain on topic a scary thing?

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Oh! ... ;)

Maybe it's not a misconception. Maybe it's my opinion.

But you're right, it all depends on what you want this forum to be. Everything else comes naturally then. If you want an office and I want a pub, we'll never agree on the furnishing and the opening hours. :D


Just to be clear, though:
I appreciate how things "of value", as you put it before, are being discussed here. But that's just one aspect for me. Not the only one.

And I see that the actual place to put real information without any noise is the wiki. Users shouldn't have to search a forum for solutions to their problems in an ideal world.


A personal aside, not a valid point in this discussion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashandDie (Post 500709) It's not being handled that way. Half the stuff is anarchy, because we (the moderators) scared of being too restrictive. Why would you be scared of having a tidy forum? Why is having a forum where posts remain on topic a scary thing?

I think the mods are too strict ATM; see this post from a while ago.

Why the idea of a "tidy" forum scares me?
Because for me, tidyness is the opposite of coziness (is this a word in english?). I don't go to tidy pubs to meet my friends. I don't want my living room to be tidy. Let banks and government agencies be tidy, not places where people meet.
Because I'm scared of people in suits with polished shoes and a focussed, narrow mind. There's only a small step from suits to uniforms, from diligent moderators to topic nazis. I'm scared of janitors who become Blockwarts.

This is all very personal and emotional, but you asked why it "scares" me, and fear isn't something objective.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Godwin's law!

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Exactly. A forum is primarily a discussion or meeting area. The discussion may be technical or social and - like most conversations between people - is often both. Online fora are different from their RL cousins in that the conversations are recorded and can be searched through but you must be aware that you are searching through conversations, not solid information. If you want to search through real information, you do so in an organised knowledge-base such as a wiki.

Forums are great for extracting information or ideas from people in (near) real time. This works best if the participants are comfortable 'chatting'.They are not well suited to storage of distilled information for future retrieval.

I hope my attempt at humour implying that OPK spoke in gangster-fashion at the recent Nokia results press conference wasn't the reason why that whole thread was relegated to off-topic.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Whee, i'm the poster child for derailing legitimate threads. :p

I have to agree with Benny on the point about a conversation running out of steam on topic and digressing into sidechat. May i suggest that if such a thing is observed to happen in an otherwise "productive" thread, the person who notices it (especially the thread starter) can request that posters "stay on topic"?

I have seen very little of that going on here. I think we're all paralyzed by the apparent liberalness of the place; worried that requesting normal forum etiquette will draw ire. The result is the seemingly passive-aggressive moderation as we (the mods) try to maintain some level of order to the chaos.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

we all wanted more moderators so we got them.
Now we are in a position where they all seem to pulling in different directions with no consistant guidelines to follow, so we've got a Moderate as you please situation.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Still I like CrashandDie's approach of bringing up examples.


This thread - why is it off topic in a Maemo forum? It discusses how people react when they see the N900.

This thread is about Maemo devices used in the community - off topic in a Maemo forum?

This one discusses false information spread by Nokia about a new Maemo update. Off topic?

This thread discusses a very real problem I observe in bugzilla - and even offers ideas for solutions. Totally off topic.

This thread improved my personal user experience with the N900 because it showed me how to add an icon for it on the desktop when connected via USB. Off topic.

This thread discusses Android vs. Maemo. Given this is a Maemo forum with a competitors section - off topic?

In this thread a community member asks about the legal situation of the maemo.org-logo, who holds the rights etc. - we have a "community" section, but this is off topic.

....

None of these threads has "derailed" into discussions of either male or female genitals. They didn't mention Hitler (I just had to) and never touched religious topics.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Mods aren't infallible nor omniscient. One thing to do in the case that a thread is obviously miscategorized is to use the "report" feature to point it out to a mod. Make a concise statement of why you feel it belongs elsewhere.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Different? They seem to be pulling pretty cohesively to me. Some just more than others. . . .

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I see the opposite. But I don't want to go into that too much here.

The way I see it, there are 3 main factors to consider, in no particular order:

- goal of the site
- ideals and principles of the forum administrator
- wishes of the members

I won't go into the goal of the site. But my understanding of the admin, Reggie, is that he is mostly hands-off and I like that. I wish I could do a better job myself of not plunging into controversial subjects here. Even though I see a need for a *little* more moderation than we had to use in the past, I want to defer back to his approach. If we have to err, err to laissez-faire.

As for members... they want it both ways. They want a forum that's easy to navigate, free of clutter, but they want to gab too. That's human nature. Some of the opinions expressed on this subject try too hard to fight human nature... advocating a robotic adherence to the letter of the law, ignoring the spirit of the issue.

We do need clearer guidelines, and that subject is under discussion amongst moderator staff, but at the same time I'd like to see an overall exercise of compassionate judgment. Err to the side of tolerance. Don't delete threads simply because you're looking for "tidyness". That screws up the flow of a conversation. It also angers people to the point that they often respond with MORE noise (beware the Law of Unintended Consequences). I can tell you I wasn't happy at all to see some of my posts deleted recently because I felt it to be unnecessary. Deletion also erases history.

I also wish my fellow moderators will take context into account when deciding where a thread goes or stays. That includes the overall tenor and purpose of a thread.

I've said enough, and appear to be in the minority amongst the leadership here, so I'll shut up now. But I will say I simply can't and won't be a moderator if we are destined (as some would have it) to create a stifling, anal retentive atmosphere. That goes against my personality and principles.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Benny,

I'm not a supermoderator, so I can't trace the history of all those threads you've shown in example. However, I believe Kathy posted in off-topic directly, nobody moved her thread there (please do correct me if I'm wrong).

lcuk's thread regarding the fake bug report is a farce. I'll just quote GA from that same thread:
This is the only serious post in the whole thread. The rest is just joke, after joke, after joke. And guess what, none of them are on topic, and none of them seem to take the issue seriously. At least you're right on that one: totally off-topic.

Regarding the n900 criticism thread, there have been billions of them, and most useful contributions have already been made... And before you praise a thread, let's just go down to the first page... and we see this beauty:
Yup, we've definitely lost a lot of intelligence by binning that one into off-topic. However, regardless of my opinion about the thread -- something every mod attempts to do by the way, if it wasn't obvious -- this might actually be a good post for General. Having an initiative to consolidate constructive criticism would definitely be a good thing. But then again... that post was from any effort in that sense.

About the poll regarding who owns what... I'm sorry, have you even read it? How does it contribute anything useful? The only thing people do is *say exactly what they just voted for in the poll*.

I'm sure I could keep going, but we're just going to alienate half the world if we keep going like this. I honestly believe we've both made our point, and as you brilliantly said before, I want an office, you want a pub. We know we can't have the same thing, now let's just try to find a consensus.

I'll inspire myself from texrat's conflict resolution skills and simply withdraw from this thread. I don't believe pouring more oil on the fire will help anything, so I'll just let others take point.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I still don't understand why bug reporting is considered so sacred by some that it's not to be touched by a little tongue-in-cheek humor. :rolleyes:

Sorry, guys, it's certainly Serious Business to report and manage bugs but I see nothing at all wrong with an Off Topic thread making light of a user's faux pas.

Maybe we should hang a shingle here:

No Fun Aloud (pun intended)

The robot contingent would rejoice I'm sure.

EDIT: my apologies to CrashandDie. I thought he was in tacit agreement with another comment in lcuk's thread, but he says otherwise. Sorry about that.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

That was kind of the point (i think)... benny was advocating it not be in off-topic. An entire tongue-in-cheek thread like that, probably* should be.

For everything else I'm on your side....

*I'm not too concerned about whether the content of the post is contributory or humorous... if the post is about the N900 or Maemo, regardless if it's a stupid post or not, it belongs in N900 or Maemo. If it's about Kate Beckinsale being the hottest chick alive... that is off-topic.

ETA: But I'm mostly a nobody... so I'll just continue to be thanking posts I like.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

I was just commenting on the expression by some that even joking about bug reporting was inappropriate. It was an aside, but now I'm understanding I should not have used CrashandDie's quote to make the point. My bad.

Amazing how easily misunderstandings occur in a forum... :D

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

And I have no issue with people making a fun thread in the off-topic forum, just don't blame moderators for being uptight because "it's useful and would be better in another forum", which is exactly what Benny did in his last post.

Re: Please keep "Off Topic"-section off topic!
 

Thread was created in Off-Topic. I cannot keep up with all the threads created in the wrong place, and "cleaning" Off-Topic has not been a priority for me.

Another thread that was created in Off-Topic.

My fault. Initially, the problem appeared to be solely for those who previously had other, non-Maemo Nokia devices and didn't update the Nokia service to reflect they no longer used that old phone. Oh, and the service was reported to not even apply to Maemo devices.

In the past, there's been vocal protest of people putting Symbian-focused discussion in "General". The demand was that such threads be "Off-Topic". As this Nokia service appeared to be only for Symbian devices, not Maemo, I moved it to Off-Topic.

Recent updates to the thread include people reporting the receipt of these notifications even though they've never had a Nokia phone before. Given that, I probably should have moved the thread back out of "Off-Topic", but I found the issue murky, I don't like bouncing threads back and forth, and I decided to wait a bit to see if more information on exactly what's happening might be forthcoming.

Another thread that was created in Off-Topic.

Another thread that was created in Off-Topic.

This thread was moved, though not by me. I haven't read the thread, so I cannot comment.

Another thread that was created in Off-Topic.

I do what I can, but these forums have become very active. I have not seen any requests via "Report This" to have these threads moved to other forums. A number of these threads I've never even seen before. There's too many now for me to read all of them. If you've the time to read the threads and find their miscategorizations, would you please consider taking the time to use "Report This" to notify the mods about them?