Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

For lack of a proper mailing list and project name I'm starting this new thread
to brainstorm about a new project which has at least two main goals:

* use Debian (or Ubuntu) as a upstream for MeeGo.
MeeGo itself is deliberately going to be incompatible to every other distribution.

* port Debian with MeeGo components to the N900

UPDATE: we are brainstorming on this page http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_on_Debian

DISCLAIMER:
This thread is not about _whether_ Debian should be upstream but _how_ we could implement it.
We're not interested what your favorite distribution is or why you don't like Debian.
For flamewars please start another thread.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

I think this might be interesting for Ubuntu/Debian lovers (like me): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuLiquid http://ianlawrence.info/random-stuff/liquid-update

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

I think we should start with a native Debian squeeze port to the N900, while legally reusing the proprietary Nokia components to avoid losing functionality (unlike Mer).
This means we would try to upgrade as much as possible free components to their Debian counterparts without breaking compatibility for the proprietary Nokia stuff. Alternatively the Nokia software could run in a minimal chroot to provide everyday functionality on the N900.

I think starting with an existing device has the advantage of testing the port in the real world scenario
and access to a larger community which may be interested in running a full Debian distribution on their device (so far they only have Easydeb).

Later we could integrate more and more MeeGo components and send the necessary modification to
Debian upstream. Building of packages would be done using the Debian infrastructure.

I'm working on a solution which makes it possible to keep the original rootfs on NAND
but which creates a chroot on eMMC and boots from there. It removes the need for optification
while taking advantage of the faster NAND for system files. System files can be selectively replaced.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

thanks, but the N900 does have accelerated graphics!? Do you really think KDE makes sense on a mobile device?

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

As an end user I would sincerely hope that the open source communities could actually pull the same rope for the greater good instead of dividing to camps where the difference to my admittedly untrained eyes is more in the philosophy than the end result.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

for an end user having Debian as upstream means getting access to more HQ software packages.
This is not a rpm vs. deb or Fedora vs. Debian philosophy discussion,
because MeeGo is going to be incompatible to all other distributions.

We want to fix that and give it _some_ proper upstream distribution.

Another group of volunteers could give it a Fedora or whatever upstream (more choice is good), but at least my personal preference is a Debian upstream.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

From the end result point of view there's not much difference in what's at the bottom. I believe a Fedora/RPM-based baseline could be on the same level as a Debian/DEB-based baseline. However, for some of us who view the whole thing from the bottom-up, i.e. working directly with package creation etc. it can make a big difference. In particular, some of us went with the internet tablet (and later N900) _because_ it was a Debian/DEB-based solution.

So I'll be keeping an eye on this thread started by titan. The proposed solution could presumably be done without creating a hopeless divide.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Incompatible? In which way? That you can not just use a package from Fedora, openSUSE or whatever? With Maemo you can't use Debian packages also.

In my opinion much off the HQ packages of Debian makes no sense on a mobile device. So a distribution,like MeeGo which covers directly the needs for mobile devices, is a much better way to go.

An also MeeGo wouldn't be "incompatible" to other distribution, because it offers many libraries and the Linux bases system similar to other distributions. With rpm MeeGo can also be LSB conform. So it is compatible to the Linux Standard. :cool:

But it is open source. So go and make your distribution. Have a lot of fun. ;)

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

It's basically just about packaging MeeGo parts for Debian; and maybe providing some images or stuff like this.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

MeeGo = deliberately incompatible
Maemo = similar to Debian, reusing much its tools and policies
Debian Mobile = Debian + extra packages or modifications from MeeGo

nobody forces you to use Debian mobile.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

I know that no one will force me to use anything. ;)

And I also don't want to try stop anyone to create something like Debian mobile.

But, what I think, MeeGo wouldn't be less or more incompatible to Linux as Maemo is. OK it don't use Debian tool but instead will use other tools, like rpm or obs, and will be compatible to this. And maybe it is more compatible to the LSB, the defined Linux standard, as Maemo. Only if you define Debian as the standard, it is incompatible. But only incompatible to Debian.

And question like pacakge system or base distribution is only important for:
- Developers of the MeeGo system
- Geeks
- Partially, Developers of applications for the MeeGo system. E.g. to package the applications.

Why shouldn't an an own distribution not based on Debian can meet the developers needs? Much more important is a good and stable API and a good GUI for this devices.

For most of the end users, it is important that MeeGo works really well on the devices. Most of the users are not interested if deb or rpm is used, if it just works well. Most of the users that are not geeks, are also not interested in a terminal on their device. They want special applications which works well with finger operation or at small screens on netbooks.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

AMEN!!

That is very true.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

incompatible is always defined with respect to something.
Here it means w.r.t to a popular distribution which has a large maintained software pool.
Having a upstream distribution is relevant both for users and developers:

* users can install whatever package they like and be sure that it's up to date
(for example, apache with latest security fixes). they don't need to wait for
some developer to port it for them.

* developers of third-party apps can simply link against any non-core library
without porting it themselves and any commitment to maintain it.
If they are familiar with the mature upstream development tools and policies,
there is no need to learn something new. They could also build and test the apps
natively on their desktop.

Debian mobile will be LSB compatible and you will be able to install MeeGo RPM apps
in addition to large existing Debian pool.
If you want a system that is _only_ made for average joe, go MeeGo pure or the Iphone/Android way.
If want something for both experts and mainstream, Debian mobile would be an option.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

My suggesions:

- work with/for n900 for now;

- first BIG goal is to create a rootfs that will provide virtually same functionality as current Nokia's firmware without anything else installed, but within debian infrastructure: connected debian repos (+ project-specific repo with debs with nokia stuff and not-yet-in-debian software for n900), ability to install additional software from these repos;

- first SMALL goal is to create a wiki page that lists all debs in nokia's firmware and what is our desicion on action with that deb. And what to do with out-of-any-deb objects, if any.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Also, it looks for me that "Debian Mobile" is a bit unfair name for this project. There are other debian- or debian-based mobile related projects. Emdebian, pkg-fso, hackable:1 to name some.

Perhaps we should be a bit modest :), and get a more specific name. Maybe Debian Meego.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Also, what about toolchain?

We have a choice at least between emdebian toolchains, maemo's scratchbox-based environment, and native compilation (perhaps on some fast arm system running debian).

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

For relicensing binaries for possible use in your project, or other methods, please see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44991 as well. Let me know what I can help with.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

[Re: toolchain]
For me the scratchbox-based environment works well, but there's no reason there couldn't (still) be several alternative ways to choose among, depending on what works best for you.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

stskeeps has done a nice job of documenting the (non-)free packages
http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo...penness/pr1.1/
there is also http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_Maemo

We could try to dpkg-repack all proprietary stuff, change their dependencies to the new
Debian versions and reinstall them in the Debian chroot.
We don't have the permission (stskeeps' efforts may help) to distribute them
but could have a script which automatically transforms a N900 into a Debian based device using the installed binaries.

I'm fine with Debian MeeGo, too. Debian mobile was just Julian's first idea.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

there is also scratchbox2 with an up-to-date lenny toolchain
http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/
Jebba's build server (AFAIK based on sbdmock)
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=43188
and MeeGo's OBS.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

thank you! I think we will soon know which non-free packages are most incompatible with Debian and for which workaround are impossible. They would be the candidates with highest-priority.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

This thread http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=31
is an example of how to setup a chroot for beginners.
It would be nice if we could get qole involved in the project.
He knows a lot about how to adapt Debian to run on the N900.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

and on this day Mæbian is born

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

a similar project idea and name was discussed before
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=22557
I don't know whether the project became Mer, EasyDebian or died.

some other ideas for a name: DebiaN900, Debian900 or Debian/900

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Long story short: We tried to take Debian, shape it into mobile usage without tearing apart the base system. Result: Deblet, Horrid battery usage, horrid user interface and incompatibility with Maemo GTK+/Hildon applications.

We decided Maemo had a reason to be like it was, and then Mer was born.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Seems to be an active thread, so have a look at: http://www.linuxuk.org/2010/02/the-n...buntu-devices/
Summary: Ubuntu 10.04 Netbook Remix will have ARM support! I'm looking forward to boot into it...

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

My experience is that Debian Lenny packages seem more compatible with their Maemo counterparts, such as gconf and pulseaudio. You'll have a better chance at success if you start with Lenny and selectively upgrade to Squeeze until something breaks...

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

full on support man. even it cost me $50 to upgrade i would happily paying for it.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

What I would like to do is - have minimal system that contains nokia original binaries - at least some of them - but bound to debian infrastructure so additional packages installable from there.

Why this should result into increased battery usage and/or incompatibilities? It looks like a packaging question for me...

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010...redshirts.html has some comments that might be of interest to you people, in order to not duplicate work. You can tag on, but I think it's fair to warn you that for N900, it's better to contribute to MeeGo. For N8x0, we're doing Mer^2 out of need.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

I doubt MeeGo will accept contribution in making it deb-based and having debian main repositories as primary package source. And that is exactly what I see as a goal of this project.

I still see this project mainly as re-packaging effort, with small modifications only if/when really required.
If this will succeed, I hope this project will provide whatever software written for Meego in form of debs, installable on "MeeGo devices running debian" as well as on whatever else running Debian.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

We would try it the other way around: Take a working Maemo5, and replace the free components (for example, libc, libgcc, Gtk, dpkg, ...) step by step until it breaks the closed components. Most libraries should be binary backwards compatible. If they are not, we keep an older and the new version and fix the rpath for the proprietary binaries.

We would also cleanly repackage the closed components so that don't cause conflicts or missing dependencies for apt-get.
Additionally, we add essential Debian packages (debconf, ucf etc) so that standard Debian packages can be installed.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Unfortunately "running on ARM" does not imply "optimized for a mobile ARM device".

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

ok, thanks. We could also consider working with sid as we could then send possible changes directly to upstream.
But it's probably more sensible to start with something that works and with which we could collaborate with EasyDebian.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

fully agreed.

I don't want to waste time and energy trying to convince "them" to 1. use some upstream 2. that this upstream should be Debian. Even if we succeed in convincing them, we as N900 users would most likely not benefit from it, anyway.
So let's how see how far we can go with our plans as we would directly and immediately benefit from our work. Maybe "they" will like the results so much that they change their mind, but that's not the main goal.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Official Debian packages are build on Debian's buildd network for all supported architectures. For custom repositories, I would advise everyone to compile on real ARM machines using sbuild; but scratchbox2 or emdebian tools could be used to cross-compile instead.

I have yet to contact the current maintainers of Moblin and Maemo related packages in Debian to see how the packaging should be coordinated.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

MeeGo is a registered trademark of the Linux Foundation and trademarks should be avoided whenever possible. But we'll see what happens.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

That's right.

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

we could ask them for permission to officially use Debian/MeeGo or Debian MeeGo/GNU/Linux :)

Re: Debian Mobile: MeeGo on Debian (for N900?)
 

Then those users have hundreds of other phones they can buy. I see no reason to copy those finger-licking goodlooking phones without terminals. The full featured and rootable terminal is by far the #1 reason why I bought this phone. I would have bought it even without a touch screen. Can we please keep at least one phone on the market with a full featured rootable terminal? Please?