Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Just saw this at CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/...ex.html?hpt=C2

He also takes a jab at Nokia:

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Jobs is a one man troll army, what did you expect?

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

I'm convinced Jobs is one of the biggest blowhards the technological world has ever seen. I don't think anybody has held so much clout while being such a whiny b***h who doesn't in fact, seem to understand just what open and closed really are.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

who wants to hear steve jobs talking?

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

I like Andy Rubin's response to Steve Jobs best: here

Android is tons more open than iOS. Less open than MeeGo. But the discussion about open/close isn't Steve Jobs to make.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

While Jobs isn't wrong at all about Android, there is a vast difference between open/closed and fragmented/integrated. I fully agree that integrated is generally better because the manufacturer can tailor the software to the hardware, rather than vice versa, but that has no impact on its openness. Maemo isn't fragmented because it's Nokia specific, but it's still open

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

I'm not sure if he mean open as in open-source or open as in available to many manufacturers. Android of course is both though.

I think he also said "When we hear open we think Windows".

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

"mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make"

Where are the commands to install the build files to a HTC Hero, Motorolo Milestone or some other xxx xxx?

If u have the answer the please let me know

If u know how to do same with Maemo Source code then please..

I can build linux kernel, gnu utils, x org, kde/gnome and build a distro and run it on my PC if u can do same with android or maemo then it is a true opensource product.

Some times it's good to have a well supported Closed Product than a half opensource product.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Did he just compare a $50 phone to a smartphone?!! AND he is labeling Nokia as the "$50 handsets" manufacturer! This guy needs to get shot!

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

He is a smart guy but his dis-ingenuity is reflective of those with intentions that are not clear/ well meaning. He very well knows Nokia makes phones for Enterprise, Entertainment and high end N series users. These are not $50 handsets. If he is claiming nokia is selling more because it's quality is low - well that is also incorrect.
Nokia's lowest end phones released in the last month all include Wifi, GPS, free ovi maps, app store and a strong community. These "50$" phones can multi task like the Iphone never could. These "50$" have sold so well because of Nokia high standards in quality manufacturing and by their use of a very mature and efficient OS - Symbian.

Everyone loves to hate Symbian - but like it or not its actually the best OS out there in terms of efficiency, maturity, cost and reliability. It's not a flavour of the month that comes and goes. When Apple reach that point they can then throw rocks.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

I'm sorry... You were saying?

I agree that Maemo is (was?) limited by the binary blobs but MeeGo is not - the closed parts for the N900 needed by MeeGo are now redistributable. MeeGo is much like android in that regard, an open OS but closed parts for hardware. It should be quite easily possible to "cook" MeeGo flashes for devices just as Android.

Hell.. people already have it booting on a Nexus One.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

well, his interpretation of smartphone is limited to what the iphone does.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Try reading just Jobs' quotes and ignore the writer's mistaken remarks.

@mohannad: he's saying they want to stick to making smartphones, and they can't sell those for $50.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Read the whole article and nothing really seems mistaken.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Where does it specifically mention open and closed source, other than the author's interpretation of Jobs' vague remark?

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Why is it that whenever Jobs talks, I hear the "...lack of faith disturbing." - D Vader quote, as well as Vader's Theme music?


Hmmm.... Darth Jobs...... Steve Vader.....:eek:


.....why can't I catch my breath?.... gasp....gasp.....thud.....

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Specifically? Right here:

"Google loves to characterize Android as open, and iOS and iPhone as closed," Jobs said. "We find this a bit disingenuous and clouding the differences between our two approaches."

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Is there any way that could make meego not ending up fragmented or will it have the same problems as android as there is no solution to it?

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Can't be too subtle can I?
Where does it specifically say open and closed source?
Is there only 1 interpretation to the terms 'open' vs 'closed' in the context of platforms?

Even google (forgot whom) alluded to themselves as 'more open than ios', without any specifics.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

The thread title should read, "Steve Jobs Dodges Open/Closed Question to Talk About Fragtmentation."

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Probably the biggest problem with Android's fragmentation is that Google is a jack of all trades. Nokia haven't got a search engine and a car that drives itself, Google do. They're like the cuckoos of the technological world - wait for companies to make a profit from something, then try to usurp it. Where is their experience in mobile computing?

nokia, on the other hand, are well versed in it. Symbian wasn't fragmented despite appearing on various manufacturers' devices. Windows isn't fragmented, it has its issues and for sure some of those could be resolved if it made its own hardware, as Mac's demonstrate, but it isn't fragmented. For instance, Windows on a computer with a decent amount of RAM and antivirus should pose no problems ( it doesn't for me anyway).

What i'm getting at is something being available on multiple devices doesn't intrinsically make it fragmented. It will need specific hardware to run at an optimum level for sure, but that's why Nokia are keeping Symbian for its low-mid level phones and MeeGo for the high-end, so we won't have something like the HTC Wildfire running a crippled version of MeeGo. I'm probably in the minority, but while the blogs and anti's of Nokia criticise them for not exclusively having Maemo or MeeGo, I agree with the decision for the above reason - hopefully only the premium devices with the ideal hardware capabilities will run it, while the lower spectrum devices will have the very adaptable Symbian.

So, while mobile phones is Nokia's business and they've been top of the tree for a long, long time and they know what they're doing generally, Google are new to the game and learning on their feet. HTC churn out a new device each week it seems and there are variances in hardware specs (X10 mini, Wildfire etc). Add to that the issues in not rolling out universal updates even on brand new handsets, that's where Android has its problems.

Then again, has there been mention that other manufacturers will have MeeGo? I know it's been said it'll be a cross platform OS and BMW, Asus etc will have it in their in-car entertainment, but i haven't seen anything that, say, Motorola can release a MeeGo phone. I hope not personally.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Well presumably the assumption is he's talking about open and closed source because he has made the same attacks, specifically on source, before.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

I'm not sure I get all this negativity surrounding Android or it's "fragmentation" (not exactly sure I'd call Android 'fragmented'.. but.. ok..) .. Android is Pretty damn successful and despite what Mr. Jobs wants you to think, is sure making that oh so perfect "integrated" Apple platform work damn hard for it's money

Well.. what you believe, and what's happening, aren't exactly matching up there Mr. Rich dude.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Wait, I thought that was Apple?

Google does whatever they need to remain relevant. They saw where mobile was going and moved. Mobile computing isn't terribly different from regular computing, so long as you approach it right (which Microsoft failed miserably at.)

IIRC, it was wildly fragmented. The catch is that many fragments couldn't run additional software at all.

Fragmentation in Windows was worse, and with varying hardware specs makes development of games something more difficult than what it is for consoles.

We still could, since Nokia has no monopoly on MeeGo.

Android's core problem is the carriers, followed by the handset vendors.

They can, certainly. But anyone who cares about openness will avoid them like the plague.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Oh sure, Apple do it too, but at least they know where to draw the line IMO. Like Jobs himself has said, there's no Apple search engine for instance.

Where have Google really got regular computing experience though? A search engine and a shedload of advertising more or less.

Ah, i don't really use games so can't comment there, see your point though. I was really talking from a day-to-day point though of modern Windows

Most definitely agree there.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Texas Instruments is quoted as saying that when the OMAP4 debuts, the OMAP3 SOC's will displace ARM11 on the low end. I can understand if Meego is reserved for high-end handsets for performance reasons, but it shouldn't be used to up sell higher margin phones. It the above is true, and if the N900 runs Meego well (recent Youtube videos seem to suggest it will), than the argument for Symbian becomes pretty difficult. If Meego is going to have long term success in the growing crowd of smartphone OS's, it needs to be ubiquitous and widely used. It can't be solely used as bait to draw consumers into the high end.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

here is the pretty pie chart of android fragmentation

http://blog.tweetdeck.com/android-ecosystem

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

even 6 beta testers with nokia n900 :)

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Fragmentation needn't be an issue if handled properly. I think MeeGo is cleverly designed for fragmentation, whereas Android must avoid it - and Apple couldn't if they wanted to, lacking the variety in hardware.

Darth Vader is right in a way linking freedom to fragmentation. Could you imagine free software without forks and incompatibilities? But it needn't be a negative thing. Knowing it will happen to a certain degree, you'll just have to deal with it propely.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

I doubt it'll be used as bait, not all mobile users are smartphone users and mostly that's through choice. I know someone still using a 3310, he simply isn't interested in smartphones. If and when that phone dies, he'll buy a cheap Nokia. Why would he want MeeGo? He'll just want a Symbian phone to make calls and texts. And that's the other weapon Nokia has: Android and Apple only do smartphones, not just 'phones'. Nokia cover the whole market and realise one OS isn't enough for the entire userbase.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

is the meego official api really the key ingredient needed to stop fragmentation? is it that simple? isn't googles approach somewhat similar?

what is the problem with android? does the dalvik fail because obivously there are differences between different version of os or where the fragmentation comes? I saw an article that said one needs to test an app with about 100 different configurations with android to be sure it will work.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

The Registers take on it is quite amusing

"Windows is not the first thing we think of when we hear the word "open." When we hear the word open, we think of a golf tournament. But we see Steve's point."

"Yes, the man's arguments are bit muddled. But he's certainly right that Android faces a fragmentation problem. And we'd be very pleased if the world dropped this open and closed nonsense. Thanks to both Apple and Google, the words are now close to meaningless. ®"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10...bs_on_android/

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Steve is the one who is bing ingenous here ( and he cals Google out as ingenous).

He mentions Open vs closed and then cites Microsoft as the company people thing as the open - since "it has the largest user base"...and movesd on to compare the Google fragmentation with Microsoft one OS strategy.

Hos is that a discussion of OPEN in either the "Open Source" term (MS is not Open source by any stretch), or even the "OPen Platform" term (MS is not an Open platform either). So he is making ar argumentative comparison with something that doersnt hold true and HE knows it.

When you mention Open and Google talk about either Open Source and Open platform.
If you want to talk about Fragmentation - dont start off with the Open argument because THAT it isnt.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

A slight tangent, but the recent John Sculley On Steve Jobs, The Full Interview Transcript is a very good read.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Really now. They still have a great degree of meaning, last I checked. Steve remains on the closed side and Android still lies, mostly, on the open side. Indeed, that extremely diverse pie chart showing all the custom ROMs proves this to be true.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Agreed. If one only needs to call and text, all the added "smarts" will do is: cause more bugs (potentially ruining the "dumb" features too), slow down updates and make them untrustworthy, rise prices, shorten the battery life, add weight/size etc..

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

It is not a matter of fragmentation, it is a matter of what the fragmentation does. Apple as one device, Nokia has 100? Android also "has" 100 devices. Fragmentation on iOS is not possible.

If you try to defragment Android, you will end up with lots of equal looking devices. Good for Google, but bad for everyone else. Nokia on the other hand, can do whatever they want with Symbian and MeeGo, it will still be Nokia, and look Nokia. MeeGo will be fragmented to pieces, but still share a common ground, the kernel.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

that jobs blow jokes well but must admit he succeed with such jokes and reached the current status.

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

Yup. And if nothing else, no one is going to want to spend as much money as a laptop on a phone just for calls and texts. This is why, as Jobs said, Nokia make $50 phones. They're not the whole range, and the iPhone wouldn't exist without Nokia, but they are necessary devices still and thankfully Nokia still recognises that

Re: Steve Jobs on open vs closed
 

So they decided to release modem/camera/other device firmware code too? No binary blobs at all in MeeGo?