Thread: Fennec Alpha 1
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allnameswereout's Avatar
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#89
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
WAP did, yes. JS and Flash are bad habits, but don't break the architecture of the web.
Strange when you're talking W3C standards.

I don't have to. Your browser tells me.
Not breaking the web means that, for example, when you're on WLAN, a browser on a Maemo device could request a full desktop version of the site, while it could specifilally request a mobile version when on a slow data connection like GPRS. It would always do so, not needing to know whether the mobile version is available at all, if it's domain.mobi or m.domain.com or www.domain.com/mobile/ ...

The architecture of the web says that this should be done using specific MIME-types in the HTTP-request and/or loading the mobile style sheet rather than the regular one. The URI should remain the same, though. Creating domains/subdomains/... for what should be handled in the HTTP protocol is not The Right Thing. Instead, my mobile browser on low bandwidth should send a request for www.domain.com, saying it would, if available, please prefer a mobile-friendly version, in German, if possible, encoded in UTF-8. It's as simple as that.
Well, it is legacy, and won't change any time soon.

In the current way we assume based on browser id string what the user wants to see. They can easily click through to the full, non-bandwidth friendly version. They can even bookmark the full or the mobile version. The user can easily specify the URL, and m.website.com is very easy to type compared to www.website.com or website.com. So the current solutions are practical whereas yours aren't practical sound.

Which doesn't affect my browsing experience much.
It does if you were served all kind of uncompressed, high quality data which your screen cannot optimally use anyway.

Except that my N800 has a relatively large screen. Remember "desktop-size" was 640x480 not so long ago.
Nowadays that is not desktop size anymore. Nowadays people have big tellies.

That's exactly the point. You have cell phones
  • with touch screen and no hardware keys
  • with touch screen and some hardware keys
  • with touch screen and a full QWERTY keyboard
  • without touch screen and some hardware keys
  • without touch screen and a full QWERTY keyboard
  • ...
The challenge for the UI is not the fact that they are mobile devices (which cell phones, of course, are). The challenge is that for each of them, you need to find user interfaces and workflows that best adapt to their specific input capabilities. For a touch screen without any hardware keys this will need to be radically different than for a phone that has no touch-screen, but QWERTY plus 10 additional function keys.
For different devices different ports and different configurations.

If you take Opera, then you also had to say which phone you ran. For compatibility reasons.

The challenge is that for mobile phones and low-end mobile devices we had a good browser owning the market for years: Opera. Now we have mobile hardware with touchscreen, relatively more powerful processor, and hardware rendering. So we make use of that.

You consider looking at the HTML source a "strange obsession" that "normal" people don't have.
Me not being normal aside
Yes, you know. Normal people. Who use MS Office. And MS Windows. And have a Nokia phone. Buy groceries at Aldi. Drink beer on sale. Have a BMW. Those people. Casual folks. Non-techies. Not freaks, not geeks, not rdesktop users, not open source fanatics, not web developers. Just Joe Sixpack.

what you say here just backs my original claim:
Reduced functionality has nothing to do with mobily use.
Feature creep is not only refering to software bloat in terms of raw performance.

If I have this bizarre fetish of looking into the HTML source, I will want to do it regardless of which device I'm at.
Yeah, and if you still want to use gopher:// you'll do it regardless of whether the software on your device does it. Except, most users, do not wish to use Gopher protocol. Having all kind of options (in text no less) will confuse the user. Instead, the user needs a limited amount of buttons and thats it. I don't see a 'go to homepage' button in Fennec or Safari mobile. Yet they exist in Mozilla Firefox and Opera. I haven't missed this in Fennec or Safari Mobile though. If I really missed something I'd get an extension. What sucks is that you can't install extensions in Safari mobile, and for Fennec and MicroB there aren't many available. But te latter will change after they got more mature.

Those who don't do it in the first place would also accept something like Fennec as their desktop browser, because they don't even realize there's something missing.
You don't know how much you appreciate something/someone until you're missing it/him/her.

So the point remains that Fennec is a stripped to the bare minimum browser that maybe appeals to a certain type of users. Its user interface is in no way optimized, though, for mobile usage, as "mobile usage" as such doesn't mean less functionality, but only a different UI.
The certain type of users who want to get the job done of browsing on 'the internet' (http://) instead of reading HTML source code while taking advantage of the size and portability of their touchscreen based device. Are you talking about Mozilla Phoenix?

No, that's what a mobile PC is for.
It isn't a mobile PC. If you want to do web development on your NIT go install Quanta or something using PB's KDE. Which, sadly, won't be optimized for touchscreen usage. Most people using a web browser on their small mobile touchscreen device do not do web development.

rdesktop would require me to have my desktop PC up and running and connected to the net plus i'd need a way to get around the dynamic-IP-stuff... why would I want that if all I need is right in my hand?
Because the tablet comes with a specific set of features. If you want more, you have to use extensions or 3rd party repositories or use your thin client to connect to your more powerful beast(s) which means rdesktop, SSH, usw. Getting around dynamic-IP-stuff is pretty easy, btw.

Mobile devices are the hardware, they don't adapt to it. And the hardware is getting more powerful with each generation.
More powerful isn't an open invitation to bloat or feature creep (it unfortunately is... in practice...).

I don't see my laptop moving in this direction (it is a mobile device, isn't it), I don't see netbooks moving there... And as for the tablets: Yes, we see some strange things coming in the Maemo5 UI, but then: I can use any decent browser on it the same way I can use Claws instead of Modest. It's not a matter of "the device". It's a matter of software. And Fennec isn't particularly good software.
Laptops share some charecteristics because they are on batteries and mobile. But they also have a large screen, and relatively powerful hardware. Fennec is made for touchscreen, mobile devices; not for your laptop. And even then, there are various ports. There are various ports of Mozilla Firefox too. Fir various platforms. With different hardware. A browser like Opera Mini has good support for mobile phones. It allows the user to execute tasks using their keypad. We wouldn't want to use this on our tablet, because this is not optimized for this hardware.

Presto, WebKit, and Gecko have all been optimized a lot past years. Especially on JS. Do you think that is for fun? Its incredibly useful on mobile devices including laptops, netbooks, and smartphones.

Maybe you need to learn how and why Mozilla suite and Mozilla Phoenix got started. Mozilla Milestones were slow too. And unstable. Mozilla Phoenix was naked too in the 0.x series. Then it got extended. Features were added and added. But the developers do their best to keep people using extensions instead. Which, *gasp* are not enabled by default.
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