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joerg_rw's Avatar
Posts: 2,210 | Thanked: 12,538 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
welcome to sequel number 7 of the "is it really open when you don't publish the 10 layers of PCB and the specs of the FR4 and the exact type of Galden and the thermal profiles used in the reflow soldering and the contract details for the PCB manufacturing and the soldering and the shipping?" debate. We had a 6 of them (or maybe I dropped a few while counting) on GTA02 and GTA04 already. And during each of those I asked what for anybody needs the PCB layout and never received a sensible answer apart from "because otherwise it's not open" - which is maybe true in the semantics definition continuum of the one who gave that answer, but for sure nowhere written into stone.
And Mr Estel is insulting and trolling as usual. To prove this: I clearly stated about GDC's assets in my post Estel quoted when posting his first question. I answered his first question pointing at the fact that the answer been prior to the question,
please read the quote in your question, it has the answer to your question already. Also:
The layout contains assets GDC owned and brought to the project and thus still owns them now
And no, this is not exactly a FOSH project in the sense you use the word. Never been. We might consider making it one, eventually. When we agree that we all want to do that. This project is not meant to provide a blueprint to you how to DIY your own Neo900
which made him ask more offensively. So I asked to "stop pestering"
Now Estel answers Dos1 here with
Originally Posted by Estel View Post
The argument about GDC assets its, of course, a reasonable one. I don't get why it was so hard to tell it earlier (it isn't critique on your side, you wasn't the one answering me). I just hope that whatever happen about those project files, we will get detailed answer on why this or that decision was made, not something along the line of (in tone of previous Project Leader's answers) "we decided that we want it that way, period, stop pestering, what you don't understand, 'stop' or 'pestering'?".

You know, like "releasing Eagle project files would mean releasing Golden Delicious Computers internal asset about XYZ, which isn't important only for Neo900, and they can't afford to lose having it proprietary". Of course, I understand that such answer can't be given right now.

I think that Community could accept such things, if it would be served detailed and honest (no coating in marketing-like words), just like it did with GSM modem (impossibility to have it running 100% open, due to blocker legal reasons we're all aware of). I think it's part of the "openess in communication" that sulu asked for, in the main thread.

Still, there remains a question if calling it "100% open", instead of "as open as viable from GDC business point of view" is fair, but it's more acceptable, if people carrying about FOSS'ness are treated with respect, by giving civilized and honest answers (again, not point aimed at you, as you may presume).

Roger that - I based "definite tone" on all (up to now) comments from Neo900 team, denying possibility to drop refunds (like impossibility to direct refunds to other entity, or change target of credit card's refunds). If Team Neo900 sees any real opportunity for avoiding/circumventing that refund thing (disastrous, in my opinion), I stand corrected (and happy penguin, too).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that you was referring to "talking with joerg and hearing that..." just few days ago, when the "crisis" begins :P It may be just me being too slow to catch up the buzzling progress (changes), though.

In any matter, my in promptu comment wasn't mean to sneaky stick a needle, in any matter. Honestly, I think that you're doing *AWESOME* job as a spokesman for Neo900 - both early in the project and now (guess who I wanted to forward Polish Radio to, if they would get convinced to cover Neo900 in their short prime-time audition ). If we're on the constructive critique topic, I think that, for "personality reasons", Neo900 would gain much (and save on some communication mishaps), if Joerg would left talking with people to you, altogether :P

Acknowledged and even agreed, to some extent. It was about Project Leader's sum of reactions to Free Software Foundation, Mr. Stallman (with all due respect, I think that Mr. Joerg still have much to achieve in Open World, before even considering speaking about FSF/Stallman in such a "bit off" way, as he did in many occasions...), and overall, the answers to concerns about openness ("pestering", again).

As a way of dully noting, you might have noticed, that I started to standardize calling him as "Project Leader", and from now on, it will be the only way I'm going to do it (apart from nick, or my sentences could get quite repetitive :P).

Glad to hear that you (as in Team Neo900) value it so much. As for questions, well, the one that I had was if - after writing the "modem problem article" - Neo900 is going to start some (preferably, public) professional discussion with FSF about their dogma (for reasons mentioned in my opening post, here).

But, I'm not sure if project files wouldn't be another requirement for FSF blessing (correct me?), so it may be a null point, anyway... OTOH, even without "full blessing", convincing them to change their "modem firmware" dogma would still be something to help Neo900 gaining recognition

I really hope that it is the kind of critique that helps to improve project, not hinder it. As you may see, I'm quite enthusiastic about it (even if a little torn-between/discouraged by latest things).

All said. Estel has a record to troll and badmouth and spread lies about people (the lies are always nicely hidden in implied assumptions resulting in statements like "why it was so hard to tell it earlier". or "has a bad history of XXX" or whatever). Sorry when my answers are not as friendly as for average conversation with arbitrary other users.
On a sidenote: we still reserve the right to not deliver rationale for every single decision we make inside Neo900 team. And particularly not for decisions-not-yet-made.

[estel] The elusive comment I got, was that its due to "wanting to keep Neo900 done in big batches, instead of small parcels". What it mean in practice, is that Neo900 team doesn't want [/b]*you*[/b] being able to, easily, replicate Neo900 in your warehouse, if you happen to have the equipment and source parts. So, no arduino-like approach here, forget it.
That's all up to you. I really don't care if you like that approach or not. And I don't feel obliged to defend it. Get it or leave it, that's the offer. We're not interested in your bickering based on your expectations and your belief in being entitled to get those expectations fulfilled by us. For (non-existent) definition of the meaning of "100% open device" refer to GTA04 ML please, in several other of the 7 sequels.

Now, thats "understatement of the year", especially, considering that - from my personal point of view - Joerg's inability to agree on passing leadership to party developing Neo900 hardware (Golden Delicious Computers) is the reason for all this mess.
Now if it needs anything more to prove a bonehead who insists in badmouthing and spreading poison despite being told about the true situation in all loving epic verbosity, several times, then I don't know.
The thing about Neo900 project files was murky from the beginning, too.
The only thing that's murky here is your mindset.

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-05-19 at 08:02.

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