Seeing as we are entering shi*-storm stage, as usual over minor disagreements, a warning here to keep posts on-topic.

Woody and misterc go and settle your disagreements with each other over PM, beer whatever but don't derail this thread for your churlish arguments when both of you essentially mean the same thing! If the two of you still want to argue publicly then go set-up a thread titled "Council meeting on $DATE" and nobody would stop the two of you.