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2011-09-01
, 19:37
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Posts: 726 |
Thanked: 345 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
@ Sweden
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#232
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
The only one in this thread that actively avoids the issue is you. javispedro (together with other MeeGo developers) and woody at least make efforts to try to explain.
I have never in my life read excuses like you have on here and talk about AVOID THE ISSUE !!!.
Come on, share your thoughts together with arguments that can be discussed. Why are you avoiding direct questions about how you came to the very specific conclusion that the MeeGo development is that late and "so slow"?
Really this is making me angry to read such nonsense from grown up men that should know better.
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2011-09-01
, 21:02
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#233
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Originally Posted by javispedro
Since the last time I looked at it the install documentation is actually a lot better. I like that it's bootable on SD actually, since I can try it and see how it's going. But the install procedure for putting to the internal memory (where everyone will eventually want it to be if it's their primary) is still dodgy.
What is wrong with the current install procedure btw? That It requires an SD?
Originally Posted by javispedro
Sorry, but reality is there are no plans on the table for ARM based MeeGo devices after the N9. Do you know something I don't? If so, please do share. From what I've seen, the only people promising another MeeGo device is LG, and they aren't ARM. And yes, ARM is in the build, but i386 is in the build for Maemo too, so that doesn't prove a lot. That's not FUD, that's a fact.
FUD
...
FUD, as seen on the above posts.
As for the "see posts above", what do you mean? This is a back port by definition. It's an OS, designed for the next system, that has hacks put in to make it run on this hardware so developers could "get a jump" on the next big thing.
It was never promised to work on the N900 as an end user system. That hasn't changed. Nokia said as much when PR1.2 came out:
Many of you have been asking whether the new MeeGo platform will be supported on the N900 once it’s device-ready. Although Nokia N900 devices are being used for platform development and testing purposes by those involved in the MeeGo project, Nokia doesn’t have plans for a full scale commercial MeeGo upgrade on the Nokia N900
Originally Posted by javispedro
The initial base for the N8x0 was much smaller, and different, than the N900. The production runs were smaller in number for the N7x0 and N8x0, and both were marketed as a tablet device. The N9x0 was mistakenly marketed in some markets (Europe mainly) as a phone, and in most other places as a cross-over device. But there were a lot more made. I'd venture a bet that there are still more N900s in use now, years after launch, than all the N[78]*0 devices produced (combined).
How many pure N8x0 users do you see these days? 10s? 100?
And yes, the few that are left are running community extensions. I'd bet most people running an N900 in 2 or 3 years will be running Maemo with CSSU. Maybe a few will run Meego... But that would be to fit a specific need. I don't think there would be anyone running it for general use, as would be the case for Maemo.
Originally Posted by javispedro
Well, we've both made our predictions now. We'll have to come back (or more likely, still be here), and see who was closer to the correct answer in 3 years. Again, if I'm wrong, and Meego takes off and becomes a happy, fully functional system... Hey, that's great. I just don't think it will, based on where it was, where it is, and what I've seen before.
Allow me to use the above fact to predict
...
In less than 3 years, _all of the people who are interested in updates_ will be running Meego CE fully or _at least_ dualbooting it with Maemo.
Originally Posted by javispedro
You keep saying that... Yet every time my system does a refresh, I'm getting updates to existing apps and libraries. And I'm still seeing lots of activity here. I just don't see it the way you see it I suppose.
From a platform perspective, Fremantle virtually has _already_ stagnated.
Is it just me? I can't help but think of you throwing Maemo on the cart, and it going "I'm not dead yet!", and you replying "You'll be stone dead in a moment!"
Originally Posted by javispedro
Not much... It's just that it's one example of these exact same two companies trying an almost identical thing 5 years ago. I see the same arch happening here, and can't help but predict that it's likely to follow the same path.
And by the way, what do you have against ofono?
Ofono was another Nokia/Intel attempt to make a go at making a "common base" for phone/PDA/handset architecture. It was a nice idea, but it was so open and non-specific as a base that few projects formed around it or adopted it. Those that did all interpreted or implemented the spec slightly differently, and none of it was every really cross compatible.
I see the same thing happening here, with people claiming MeeGo CE and Harmattan aren't really Meego, or they are but it takes some tweaking to make things work. It's like watching the same project happen all over again. Maybe this time things will be different, since there is an example to point to (ala Android) that made it. But I suspect because of the players and the foundation, it's going to end the same way.
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2011-09-01
, 21:35
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#234
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Originally Posted by abill_uk
I don't think that's so. There are a few points that have caused snags here because of nit-picky semantics, or disagreements on terms (or mis-association of ideology). But over all, I think it helps for other to hear the logic behind what and how I (and many others) think. We may disagree with some of the details, but at least there's an exchange of viewpoints happening, and clarification (or even comprehension) on where the sticking points are.
Your wasting your time and effort to talk to these so called developers because they only want to see it from there point if view.
Discussion is often useful. Even if you disagree in the end, you come away with a better understanding of why someone thinks what they do, or how they go about making conclusions. If you're lucky, you may present something that can actually change how someone sees a topic. More often, you walk away with the tools you need to help change misconceptions, or at least recognize them. The only way it's not productive is if you simple refuse to see another point of view at all, and constantly repeat your own view, without stating (or in some cases even analyzing for yourself) how you came to that view. In which case, it's not really a discussion, but a yelling match. I'm not seeing as much of the latter here by most of the participants. Present company excluded...
PS: Please, when quoting someone, trim their message to the point you want to make, and use the proper mechanism for that. (See above as an example.) Re-posting large chunks of conversation without trimming is bad enough. But not using the proper quotation system, and highlighting in bright colors, doesn't serve any function but to annoy.
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2011-09-01
, 22:41
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#235
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Originally Posted by tekki
See... That's what I'm trying to avoid. I really don't need another imap folder with 20+ messages a week in it to sort through. I barely like having that for the Maemo lists, and I'm actively using that. Add that most of the emails you pointed to are announcements for, or irc transcripts of, hours long irc meetings... I really don't have that type of time for things I'm actively using, yet alone for something I'm only checking on once every couple months at best.
Just a quick note on this one - the best thing you can do is either join meego-handset@ mailing list
Originally Posted by tekki
I know many people that would disagree with that statement. There were several people that hated the N900 out of the box because it didn't meet their previous daily usage pattern from a prior Nokia based device. (Provisioned Exchange Server compatibility being a huge example.)
I'd like to know - what's your criteria (or anyone's) for daily use OS? (And don't say feature parity, because Fremantle goes up and beyond daily usage). I find it valuable to acquire requirements from stakeholders.
I think feature parity with PR1.0 is actually a reasonable target, since the goal is to get people to move to the platform. If MeeGo can't provide that, then I have to ask what the point is.
Yes, there are lots of things that I think are important out of the box:
- USB capabilities (drive emulation & sync)
- Bluetooth functionality (headset / PIM / sync / etc)
- IM and SMS capability (even Pigin + SMS chat would do)
- A usable email client (even just POP/IMAP would be fine)
- GSM call capability (preferably with address book & dialer)
- Browsing capability (I hear Fenec almost works now?)
- Backup/Restore capability (preferably better than Fremantle)
- Usable GPS system (and pref a mapping app to use it with)
- Wifi/3G/2G auto-switch
- UI-based package installer / maintainer
- Media app that can take/show/play/organize photos/audio/video.
- Base functionality of all hardware (tv-out, keyboard, fm, accel, lights, etc.)
- Stability! If I need to reboot it twice a day, it's gone.
I'm sure there are plenty more, but those are the key items I use daily (or at least weekly). I'm sure there are a few others I use less often, like MMS, h.e.n., and the like. But some of those are more icing than cake.
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2011-09-02
, 02:17
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Posts: 2,355 |
Thanked: 5,249 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ Barcelona
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#236
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Originally Posted by woody14619
It's FUD. There are few if any hardware devices planned for i386 either, so that would mean Meego doesn't target x86! The facts are that Meego targets equally both x86 and ARM. Or tries to at least. The N900 even was a reference platform...
Sorry, but reality is there are no plans on the table for ARM based MeeGo devices after the N9. Do you know something I don't? If so, please do share. From what I've seen, the only people promising another MeeGo device is LG, and they aren't ARM. And yes, ARM is in the build, but i386 is in the build for Maemo too, so that doesn't prove a lot. That's not FUD, that's a fact.
Originally Posted by woody14619
That as I mentioned on a previous post and tekki has also mentioned, MeegoCE _does_ have a list of working use cases as goals.
As for the "see posts above", what do you mean? This is a back port by definition. It's an OS, designed for the next system, that has hacks put in to make it run on this hardware so developers could "get a jump" on the next big thing.
Originally Posted by woody14619
Nokia will never make a instruction booklet. That is enough for them to say it's not user-ready.
It was never promised to work on the N900 as an end user system. That hasn't changed. Nokia said as much when PR1.2 came out
Originally Posted by woody14619
No. The FUD is saying "the N900 is a device it was never intented to work with".
The MeeGo community has also said as much, and in fact until it became "Community Edition" it was labeled pretty strictly for developers only. Reality is, that hasn't changed much. Even with the name change, most people aren't installing MeeGo and using it as a day to day OS. So again, not FUD; fact.
Originally Posted by woody14619
Ah, I _knew_ you where going to use this. I've had several discussions already on my opinions on how this will degrade, and usually the argument for newcomers is usually a variation of the above -- what I'm going to call N900-centrism.
The initial base for the N8x0 was much smaller, and different, than the N900. The production runs were smaller in number for the N7x0 and N8x0, and both were marketed as a tablet device. The N9x0 was mistakenly marketed in some markets (Europe mainly) as a phone, and in most other places as a cross-over device. But there were a lot more made. I'd venture a bet that there are still more N900s in use now, years after launch, than all the N[78]*0 devices produced (combined).
Let's put some hard data:
Builds sent to the autobuilder on June 2011: 735
Builds sent to the autobuilder on July 2011: 524
Builds sent to the autobuilder on August 2011: 552
We are already way past the prime peak, January 2010, where the number of builds sent was 2669.
Now let's look at preN900 data:
The last month without any Fremantle builds was February 2009.
There were 712 builds that month.
On January 2009, 452.
Sadly, my data source doesn't extend up to the N8x0 peak time. But if anyone's interested it would make for a nice plot.
The N900 was released around November 2009 (but many people had it before that date). The N810 was released around November 2007 iirc, while the N800 was released around January that year.
Make your own conclusions, but my impressions are that the N900 is at least currently not holding much better than the N810 did.
Why this happens despite the obvious increase in sales (because many people seemed to think the phone is their killer feature. Not mine for sure, but that's another story) and download numbers can be probably explained because preN900 time you had hardcore fans that were more interested in their pocket computer -- the N900 target market is much more less tech savvy. Therefore, the uploaders/users ratio was much higher in N8x0 times.
Originally Posted by woody14619
Yes, that's the case. But do not be confused: this is still because I think that your arguments about the extra openness being moot are invalid.
Is it just me? I can't help but think of you throwing Maemo on the cart, and it going "I'm not dead yet!", and you replying "You'll be stone dead in a moment!"
Fremantle is not yet dead. I will myself build some stuff in the near future.
But this extra bit of openness that has been obtained thanks to the MeegoCE project is virtually the only difference the N900 has (and previous devices had not) to combat its inevitable demise.
Last edited by javispedro; 2011-09-02 at 02:21.
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2011-09-02
, 04:36
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Posts: 60 |
Thanked: 198 times |
Joined on Aug 2011
@ Radical Realistic Open Source with JFDI instead of Bikeshedding
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#237
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Originally Posted by woody14619
I'm not entirely sure if you understand oFono correctly (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) - it's a component to provide a telephony stack, ie, implement modem drivers, provide a D-Bus interface. It effectively replaces N900's SSCD/libisi, etc. It's not a platform/linux distribution.
Ofono was another Nokia/Intel attempt to make a go at making a "common base" for phone/PDA/handset architecture. It was a nice idea, but it was so open and non-specific as a base that few projects formed around it or adopted it. Those that did all interpreted or implemented the spec slightly differently, and none of it was every really cross compatible.
It's kind of like BlueZ and ConnMan or NetworkManager
[1] http://ofono.org/
I wouldn't exactly call it a failure when you can do high-quality telephone calls on a N900 with it, but that's my own view.
__________________
Note: due to recommendations from my therapist, I'm ignoring abill_uk for the better of the community. If you echo any similar sentiments as him, feel free to message me or draw my attention to your post as I will gladly participate in reasonable and constructive discussions
Note: due to recommendations from my therapist, I'm ignoring abill_uk for the better of the community. If you echo any similar sentiments as him, feel free to message me or draw my attention to your post as I will gladly participate in reasonable and constructive discussions
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2011-09-04
, 03:28
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Banned |
Posts: 3,412 |
Thanked: 1,043 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#238
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Originally Posted by Joorin
YOU are the one that is just not seeing it along with the rest who insist that meego is going somewhere, please read other threads being posted on this forum now and you might just get the picture of how the majority feel about meego.
The only one in this thread that actively avoids the issue is you. javispedro (together with other MeeGo developers) and woody at least make efforts to try to explain.
Come on, share your thoughts together with arguments that can be discussed. Why are you avoiding direct questions about how you came to the very specific conclusion that the MeeGo development is that late and "so slow"?
I see very little nonsense (between the flurries of misunderstandings). You are the one sticking to "No, I will not tell you how I came to this conclusion. I just want to repeat myself over and over again, because otherwise I might have to admit that I actually don't know very much.". That last bit is me guessing what's going on in your head. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I do not have to even try to explain the why's and the reasons, just go read other threads and posts !!!!!!!.
MEEGO is dead meego will never make it and it is time for everyone to move on to better things.
How many times do you have to go on before you finally see the point and do the right thing..... move on from meego.
This community had better start to pick up on the future of mobiles or it will surely die too if it tries to carry on with meego and maemo.
The answer to this thread's question is simply YES it should stop ALL activity with meego as it is dead.
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2011-09-04
, 07:40
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Posts: 3,074 |
Thanked: 12,960 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ Sofia,Bulgaria
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#239
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Originally Posted by javispedro
And if we look at the hard data without "maemo is dead" glasses we may conclude that peak values in the first months after n900 launch are because of bugfixing builds, can we? Because bringing application into extras is not so easy task, that is why one needs several iterations devel->testing->bugfixing and again from the begining. We may also conclude that after an year and a half developers are much more experienced with the platform, have development tools (Qt,qml) in their hands which were not available in the begining, etc. which shortens development and reduces number of iterations needed to make an application stable.
Let's put some hard data:
Builds sent to the autobuilder on June 2011: 735
Builds sent to the autobuilder on July 2011: 524
Builds sent to the autobuilder on August 2011: 552
We are already way past the prime peak, January 2010, where the number of builds sent was 2669.
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2011-09-06
, 18:10
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#240
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Originally Posted by tekki
I do understand what it is right now, but understand, that's not what it was announced that it was going to be when it was originally set out. It was supposed to be the end-all be-all universal library for people chattering with the GSM subsystem. One was supposed to be able to write a single app, say a dialer app, that would talk to ofono and setup/handle phone calls. That app could then be simple recompiled on a new device with ofono support, and it would just work.
I'm not entirely sure if you understand oFono correctly (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
In reality, it became more like SNMP. There's a universal way to talk to the device, but it's so implementation specific that even simple apps often can't jump from one device to the next, because the calls to the underlying structure are so radically different that it's useless. Even simple things, like dialing and setting up a call are device dependent. Complex tasks (like sending SMS, or MMS, or starting data paths) are even worse, and often not well documented. So even if the device implements with ofono, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to figure out how it's working, or what targets need to be hit in what order to do simple tasks.
Originally Posted by tekki
Again, that' great, but really not much else has adopted it. It's in MeeGo, which is all find and good. But even if you take a basic dialer app from MeeGo, QT based, with a super simple interface, just a pad, call and hangup button, and try to run that on any other device, it won't work. That's not what the goal was, not even close.
I wouldn't exactly call it a failure when you can do high-quality telephone calls on a N900 with it, but that's my own view.
If it were, MeeGo could have used the dialer app from OpenMoko from day one, since it was all open source and ofono based as well (well, the 2009 version was at least).
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Even then, the fact that the Meego N900 Hw adaptation has less closed components means that more of it can be reused for the next big thing if by then there's any single N900 user alive.
If you'd knew the hoops I had to go through to get Wi-Fi working _at all_ on Diablo and Fremantle...
Hoops that are no longer needed in MeegoCE because they used connman from the start.
This was the largest forum of the N8x0 community. It peaked around 5 years ago.
How many pure N8x0 users do you see these days? 10s? 100? How many of those do not run any of the hacker editions people depise because they're buggy, but at least give to them a few more recent versions of certain software?
How many packages are uploaded daily to the repositories? 2 a month?
Allow me to use the above fact to predict how the Fremantle situation will look in less than 2 or 3 years from now: this place will be desertic.
It has already started! Most of the brightest people here have already run away. In part because they were tired of abill_uk, in part because they moved on the next big thing, in part because they care about the number of users their developments can target and -- believe it or not -- the numbers are rapidly decreasing in the Fremantle world. Only trolls like me remain.
So, you can compare Meego CE in craptasticness with the Maemo HEs all the way you want. In less than 3 years, _all of the people who are interested in updates_ will be running Meego CE fully or _at least_ dualbooting it with Maemo, much the same way quite a lot of people who run HE also dual boot with the original FW.
I'll tell you something else.
I used to maintain all of my software for both Diablo and Fremantle. Why? Because doing it was just one #ifdef away. Note how despite it being just one #ifdef away a lot of people didn't care about Diablo at all. Consider now that between Fremantle and Harmattan or Meego the differences are much larger. I am going to use these bits of information to predict how many people will go on updating their Fremantle software in a few years: zarro.
Your only way to get new updates for applications will be to scavenge them from other operating systems like what Preenv does.
And that's only talking about _application development_.
So, from an applications perspective, Fremantle will stagnate. From a platform perspective, Fremantle virtually has _already_ stagnated.
On to Meego.
MeegoCE uses the stock kernel. It has a very reduced number of closed components. It will be able to use Linux 3.0. You will be able to install whatever the lastest GNU/Linux software is on top of it, because the stock kernel, glibc will keep working on it for the foreseeable future, and any new interfaces will also work.
Meego can run Harmattan applications. It still requires some effort, but the Harmattan components have been proven running under MeegoCE. Harmattan is at the moment the latest big thing. It might not take off either. The N9 might only ship in a single store in the Sahara Desert at the end.
But for at least a year a lot of the hardcore developers that have been bribed away from Fremantle with a N950 (that is a fact you cannot change) will develop to Harmattan.
Thus, the Meego outlook _is_ _already_ better in the regard. Despite its complete lack of functionality.
So what's left?
Maemo is the "stably, working, unchaging evil we known". That alone makes for a great point in continuing to using it.
But there might be no future in that.
And by the way, what do you have against ofono?
Last edited by javispedro; 2011-09-01 at 09:48.