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Porting apps to Leste (32)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by Arno_11 - 5 days, 12 hrs ago - more...
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2012-04-04
, 20:31
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@ UK
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#82
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Originally Posted by Arie
Have you thoughts/a vision on how that might be achieved? (I've been asking similar questions of all the candidates ;-))
My biggest change I want brought about is the end to Fremantle vs Harmattan, this is a joke. We are all using a platform. [...] We need to operate as one unified group first. Then I think we will have a better chance to fix the problems.
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Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
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2012-04-04
, 20:33
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@ With my N9
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#83
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Originally Posted by Jaffa
It needs to start with the veterans first and end up with the normal users last. With veterans saying my N900 is better or my N9 is better, this is brought about to other users thinking or following their lead. Both have their qualities and both should be more than willing to set aside differences to make the best of each platform. I'm sure some diehard N900 users have something they can offer to N9 users and vice versa. We just need to find the common ground first.
Have you thoughts/a vision on how that might be achieved? (I've been asking similar questions of all the candidates ;-))
Edit: Before anything can happen, the hostility towards Harmattan needs to end.
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Arie|www.everythingn9.com|Nokia N9 64GB x2|Nokia N950
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Last edited by Arie; 2012-04-04 at 20:36.
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2012-04-04
, 20:53
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#84
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Originally Posted by gerbick
It's quite interesting, as AFAIK Pali doesn't feel ignored (after initial and very fast explaining why Couincil wasn't able to help, due to lack of answer from X-Fade), yet *You* speak - somehow - in his name about penalties. Quite ridiculous.
Are there any penalties for not answering inquiries from the members to the council?
I've personally seen Pali bring up some interesting things, only to see him have to reply to himself with literally no input from the council.
I think people who could be in place to assist this forum, even around Fremantle and not just Harmattan, have gone largely ignored or unanswered. Perhaps the problem exists deeper than the questions being asked.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
Without any offense, I would not call you "active" CSSU developer - at least, for many months. Take my deepest excuses, if I'm wrong.
You're losing credibility. Go to the CSSU "About" box. See my name? Right - does that give me the "right" to ask you to clarify?
Please understand, that it's very problematic to inform (precisely) people that jump in-between, about issues that are clear and obvious to majority (or at least, interested parties). Here we end up in place, where we actually agree totally - I think proper documentation via available tools (council blog etc) is a must, and if done properly, that would make mentioned problem of informing "awakened ones" a non-existent.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
There was a (quite long) period of time (2 or 3 times), where CSSU was in stall, despite hving *tons* of code ready for testing - just because one person went off-line, and CSSU team nor council had tools to pass maintainership into someone's else hands. *Of course* there was a simple solution, yet, it would require X-Fade cooperation, and he was - it's tempting to say "as always" - not contactable.
Define the CSSU problems. I asked this of SD69 when he started the thread proposing a TSG for CSSU. What problems is it trying to solve?
Last time I looked the problem with the CSSU was that a lot of people were standing on the side saying "this needs to happen" or "that needs to happen" but very few people were standing up and doing things (like defining stablisation processes and working to produce a stable set of packages etc.).
This seems to have somehow translated into Nokia's problem to comment on? This is entirely missing how empowered this community is. The fact that prospective council candidates seem to be searching around for someone to blame for an inevitable decline in community participation is worrying.
Instead of looking to the past and trying to find someone to pin problems on, look to the past to identify the cause, suggest a remedy and if that's not feasible (fewer users => fewer testers, for example; packages passing QA thresholds after the maintainer's given up) find workarounds. Most of all, find a way to enthuse people and provide opportunities for people to get involved.
Now CSSU problem is semi-fixed - MAG created way for other people from CSSU to send files as him - yet, it isn't solution per se. Would not work, if he had been hit by a bus, instead of jsut disappearing.
Your lack of information about all of those issues reinforce my statement, that you doesn't seem to be active CSSU developer for now. Again, no offense meant here - I still agree, that there should be (and for that, we have tools) a way to precisely document issues, and inform people about them, no matter if they were absent for week or for a 6 months.
/Estel
// Edit
Originally Posted by timoph
Those are all just matters of opinion that vary from a person to another. And I do know the differences since I own all the devices from 770 to n9. Besides what I meant by the transition is that a newer hardware comes and more and more focus is on it and the users of the older hardware feel abandoned. In some cases rightly so but that's how these things go.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
It;s not a matter of new vs old, or lack of kickstand - we're talking about real code-side problems. Fortunately, sometimes, even people who have received N950 see that and keep focusing on more capable device (see Nicolai), which of course doesn't prevent them from "playing with a new toy" - and that isn't bad thing.
My god, it's deja vu all over again!
People said exactly the same about the N900. No proper kickstand? Dealbreaker. No d-pad? Dealbreaker. The N900 is a total step backwards compared with the N810 or N800.
Yet, I agree with freemangordon, that it's hardly a place for repeating the same discussion again and again. Someone think N9(50) is better? Fine. But understand basic thing:
We (Community around kernel-power/CSSU and similar Fremantle projects) are *NOT* going to transfer into Nokia's current new devices/OS'es.
We love to cooperate with Harma+ devs, and no one said that they should GTFO from here - yet, our "upstream" roads are totally different, and focusing infrastructure on Harma+ is a no-go for us. If forced to, we would do our best to separate (without hostility) and maintain ourselves on our own. We will be very happy, if there won't be a need for that.
/Estel
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Measure battery's real capacity on-device
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N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
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N900's HDMI-Out
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Camera cover MOD
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Measure battery's real capacity on-device
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Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
Last edited by Estel; 2012-04-04 at 21:01.
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2012-04-04
, 22:11
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@ Barcelona
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#85
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Originally Posted by Estel
You are being absurdly paranoid. Why is Nokia brought up here again? What has Nokia to do with anything of this?
We (Community around kernel-power/CSSU and similar Fremantle projects) are *NOT* going to transfer into Nokia's current new devices/OS'es.
Nokia's current new devices and OSes are Windows Phone, and I don't see anyone here trying to transfer you there.
If you mention Harmattan (hardly current by now
), well, it's mostly the same friggin operating system (have you ever compared the list of running processes?), so... there can be some infrastructure and knowledge sharing, to say the least.And if you meant Mer/Nemo (hardly a Nokia OS) well, this topic has _nothing_ to do about them. They couldn't care less...
It seems to me that you are trying to create a war where there is none.
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2012-04-04
, 22:33
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@ Rochester, NY
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#86
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Originally Posted by Estel
Agreed... Honestly, IMHO, that's one of the primary reasons Harmattan/MeeGo is not as represented on the board. When Freemantle came around, N8*0 users were upset that they weren't being upgraded to the new system. When the N9 was launched, there was not really a large desire from most N900 holders to jump to MeeGo. Instead there was this mantra from the otherside, saying N900 should update to MeeGo so "we" (being mainly N950/N9 holders) would all be one on platform.
+1. Yet, if it would look like:
HarmaTizenwhatever is more recent, so it should slowly takeover
...with, additionally, Nokia (actively or passively) supporting this stance - then, a big no.
It was the constant insistence that MeeGo would be the way to go, and that anyone working on Freemantle was wasting their time/efforts instead of jumping to MeeGo that caused that bridge to ignite. Nokia shifting things off to it's own little world, with it's own wiki, board, and repository system wasn't helpful to unifying the community either. Sadly, the few people I see coming from the N9 camp that are talking about merging back into Maemo because it "feels like home" are still saying things that promote the idea that MeeGo/Harmattan is "better" because it's newer, and less of a "dead-end", when in reality I think the wind is pointing away from both projects in the long term.
Originally Posted by Estel
Had you said that a year ago, I would have been right with you. Now? Given the state of MeeGo and friends, I'm thinking there's not much need to really fight it. It's past the point that it will ever have a chance of matching what Maemo5 offers out of the box, making all the verbal talk of moving to MeeGo about as realistic as an N800 user moving to Freemantle. A few may have some hacked version that partially works. But mass adoption won't be happening. (Unless a MeeGo-er just won the MegaBall lottery last week... in which case, you never know.)
Again, I don't have *anything* against peaceful coexistence and collaboration, yet, any "takeover" ideas should be fought with fire by Maemo Council, IMO
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2012-04-04
, 22:56
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@ Rochester, NY
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#87
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Originally Posted by timoph
While I understand where you're coming from, I think an important part is being missed here in the "transition" from N900 to N950/N9. Historically, those from the "older generation" saw the new changes being made for the next-gen hardware and wanted that for their device. There was a desire on the part of older hardware holders to "upgrade" to the new OS. That didn't happen with the N900.
Those are all just matters of opinion that vary from a person to another..
Instead, many on the N950/N9 side (who were, in some cases N900 folks) were pushing to get people to leave Maemo5 behind and join the effort to bring MeeGo/Harmattan into the light. Then there was a push for the back port (which is still on-going) to get N900 users to "upgrade" to MeeGo so the whole "family" would be on one platform.
While it was a nice idea, the approach was... problematic. The more it felt like a push, the more N900 users felt like they were being disparaged or conned. The more MeeGo/N900 (Mer/Nemo, etc) fell behind, and the more the MeeGo "community" members participating here insisted MeeGo was the only way forward, the more TMO participants got tired of the mantra and told them to go preach elsewhere. The MeeGo forums and such opened, and off the went.
Even now, in the talk of them moving back, the conversation isn't about us making alterations to add Harmattan as a target. It's phrased more as if we're asking them for permission to add the target, having to get their input on how they feel about BMO. As if it were maemo.com going dark and meego.com having to add tools to help us out, when in fact the opposite is happening.
That's how things have changed here. N900 users weren't bad mouthing N8*0s and calling Diablo a dead platform. They weren't telling people to stop wasting time writing N[78]*00 apps and libraries, and come work on backporting Freemantle to their platform. Instead many N900 app writers back-ported apps and libraries to the older platforms where possible, especially CLI programs. The relationship was different, and still is because of that.
I think there needs to be some perspective here. Yes... There are still lots of people in both communities. Yes, having Harmattan back as a part of the family would be great. But nobody wants that if the price is a constant internal struggle.
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2012-04-04
, 22:57
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#88
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@javispewdro
I was in half of writing long response, then I saw that woody14619 already said what I was going to. So, +1 there.
Only one thing that I would like to add is - while I totally agree that there is no chance of Fremantle users mass-migrating to HarmaMeego - Nokia employees doesn't seem to get that.
So, answer for javispedro's question "why brought Nokia here" - cause Council one of very few (if not most important) tool for now, is communicating with Nokia. It may change in case of self-governed Community, but for now, Council is mainly that. And, no Communication can take place, if they're going to "live in different word".
After all, there are many places for knowledge sharing (here i totally agree with javispedro), so - after finally establishing Communities and their representatives in a way of |Communicating with Nokia, that doesn't make them get into way of each other every few moments - real friendly, sharing work can happen.
/Estel
I was in half of writing long response, then I saw that woody14619 already said what I was going to. So, +1 there.
Only one thing that I would like to add is - while I totally agree that there is no chance of Fremantle users mass-migrating to HarmaMeego - Nokia employees doesn't seem to get that.
So, answer for javispedro's question "why brought Nokia here" - cause Council one of very few (if not most important) tool for now, is communicating with Nokia. It may change in case of self-governed Community, but for now, Council is mainly that. And, no Communication can take place, if they're going to "live in different word".
After all, there are many places for knowledge sharing (here i totally agree with javispedro), so - after finally establishing Communities and their representatives in a way of |Communicating with Nokia, that doesn't make them get into way of each other every few moments - real friendly, sharing work can happen.
/Estel
__________________
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
-
N900's HDMI-Out
-
Camera cover MOD
-
Measure battery's real capacity on-device
-
TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
-
Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
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2012-04-04
, 23:11
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#89
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Originally Posted by gerbick
That's not quite how I remember it. I remember Pali asking questions and "the council" (mainly SD) answering back rather promptly. In many cases the requests Pali had were things not directly doable by Council, that had to be relayed to someone else. The breakdown from what I've seen (as a very active forum member, following kernel development and other things) was between Council and Nokia/Nemein, though I can't honestly say with clarity which side was a fault. Both now seem to be pointing at each other, though to be fair, there's a good amount of documentation in the way of postings from SD and other Council members the past 6 months that would indicate they were making an attempt.
Are there any penalties for not answering inquiries from the members to the council?
I've personally seen Pali bring up some interesting things, only to see him have to reply to himself with literally no input from the council.
It's almost as if Council was calling a wrong number, or somehow didn't get proper instructions on how to contact those in control of things. They had a method they thought was to be used, and got no reply, while others (Reggie, etc) seem to indicate they had no such issue.
Could it be the disconnect was the handing down of Council roles from one generation to the next? Can we have the existing Nokia/Nemien players document the preferred way of contacting them, and maybe a backup way if that fails? And if that's already been done, maybe verify that the information is good and in the hands of the current and next Council, whomever that may be? I'd hate this to all be because someone forgot to update a wiki page somewhere...
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2012-04-04
, 23:13
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#90
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Originally Posted by Estel
Well, I am going to ignore woody14619, because he managed to bring in his usual "meego-is-useless" flame despite the fact that _this thread was not about Meego_. I've see few people from Nemo/Mer around.
@javispedro
I was in half of writing long response, then I saw that woody14619 already said what I was going to. So, +1 there.
Harmattan and Meego/Mer/Nemo are completely different (at least, in the context of the current discussion). If you work on reimplementing ICD2, for example, it is completely useless for Meego (because, they use a _open source upstream solution_ already).
But it is HELPFUL for Harmattan BECAUSE it uses ICD2 too!
(amongst several other propietary components)
So please, please, think twice before putting them together in the same bag.
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Arie|www.everythingn9.com|Nokia N9 64GB x2|Nokia N950
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