Poll: How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB
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How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB

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#1791
Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
Congratulations! It sounds both scary and tedious, I'm sure you are glad to have it behind you.
Yes, indeed


Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
Sorry to be a PITA and bother you with yet another one of my silly questions but... what does it mean for future orders? Will they follow the same path - preorder at Goldelico followed by transferring responsibilities? Or is it going to be merged into a single step?
Not decided yet. My current take is "don't change anything", particularly since "preorder"-donations went down to not even 2 per week. Needs further discussions with Nikolaus whether he's willing to continue the current setup/procedure for another one or two dozen that might come in.

/j
 

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#1792
Originally Posted by FlashInTheNight86 View Post
Have you finalized Neo900's specs yet? Will there be different revisions with varying hardware (RAM, storage)?
The specs will be finalized only after final prototype got built and tested, until then there might be changes.
And we for sure will have different versions at least for the modems we offer. Unclear yet if it makes sense to offer different RAM and storage sizes - those would need compatible design of PCB for both variants, plus we need to be able to souce different versions in then much lower quantities, to start with. Then different designs need individual testing, read: prototypes.

/j
 

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#1793
I've been holding off on a pre-order until I see where the Fremantle port is heading. Some of my recent projects have been majorly hindered by upstream dropping support for QT4 and GTK2 (microb replacement) or closed packages (better WISPr integration).

I'd be willing to order at a later date, depending on the cost, personal finances (PC graphics card went 2 weeks ago, bringing forward plan to replace entire system) and software status. Is there going to be a cut off point?
 

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#1794
Just posted in this thread
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...70#post1418170

Are you planning any collaboration with Estel regarding his work. As mentioned by TomJ, would this eliminate the need for the spacer?
 

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#1795
Originally Posted by king Ralphred View Post
Just posted in this thread
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...70#post1418170

Are you planning any collaboration with Estel regarding his work. As mentioned by TomJ, would this eliminate the need for the spacer?
I think metal case and/or battery lid can't work, since it at least detunes if not completely shields the antennae - so no, we won't get involved into this.

@Android_808: No "cut-off" planned so far.
/j
 

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#1796
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
I think metal case and/or battery lid can't work, since it at least detunes if not completely shields the antennae - so no, we won't get involved into this.
Your own N950* and whole bunch of IOs/Android alu devices seems to "think" otherwise

Seriously though, I'm in direct contact with some friendly people involved in Neo900 thing and I have promise of being able to borrow Neo900 "final", working board, as soon as they become available, to check for quirks (even though, considering that Neo900 is supposed to use N900 cases anyway, there shouldn't be any compatibility issues).

No plans to eliminate need for spacer at this moment, though.

/Estel

*Although, admitely, N950's radio's reception is quite poor, but its related to lacking execution of helical antennae concept, rather than metal body.
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Last edited by Estel; 2014-03-24 at 01:23.
 

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#1797
Originally Posted by Estel View Post
Your own N950* and whole bunch of IOs/Android alu devices seems to "think" otherwise
You might have missed to notice that detail: N950 has all antennae in both ends of device which are plastic ("PC+ABS"), not alu. See <-- picture, which also shows the "AL" triangle on center section of N950 lid.

Generaly a device can build antenna into a metal body, but that needs careful design that exploits the case metal as part of the antenna, not simply ignoring it (see: iPhone "you're holding it wrong", which obviously exploits part of the metal frame as (part of) antenna). Asserting that a change from a plastic case to a metal case wouldn't have massive impact on the performance of antennae close to - or even covered by - that new metal, is inconclusive.
Originally Posted by Estel View Post
Seriously though, I'm in direct contact with some friendly people involved in Neo900 thing and I have promise of being able to borrow Neo900 "final", working board, as soon as they become available, to check for quirks (even though, considering that Neo900 is supposed to use N900 cases anyway, there shouldn't be any compatibility issues).
I wonder who those "friendly people involved in Neo900 thing" might be. I can't recall me giving such promise, and I haven't heard of Nikolaus promising anything like that. Which doesn't mean we would refuse to send a test model to you, but honestly you don't need that since you can test with N900 as well, they will most likely be 100% identical regarding RF design.
Originally Posted by Estel View Post
No plans to eliminate need for spacer at this moment, though.
Sure, would be hard to eliminate that anyway.


"but its related to lacking execution of helical antennae concept, rather than metal body" - err, please elaborate. Sounds intriguing, please share details! Sure I know of the "coils" built into those holes, though that's not really a helical antenna design and for sure never been meant to be one. But what's that thing about improper execution?

cheers
jOERG

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-03-24 at 05:59.
 
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#1798
excerpt from IRC freenode.net: #neo900



[2014-03-25 01:10:20] <dos1> https://www.privacyinternational.org...e-ubuntu-phone
[2014-03-25 01:12:05] <dos1> this article hurts :c and not because it's bad, I'd just ignore it then
[2014-03-25 01:12:17] <dos1> it's so right about the need, but at the same time so wrong about the facts
[2014-03-25 01:14:09] <bencoh> "It is disappointing that Ubuntu failed to provide an open baseband implementation that researchers could experiment with" huhu, yeah, sure
[2014-03-25 01:14:35] <bencoh> like "it's so damn simple, why didn't you come up with it ?!"
[2014-03-25 01:17:37] <dos1> "The choice of Canonical to use a binary only baseband is even more disappointing when Osmocom have already produced a functional open-source GSM baseband for the Calypso chipset. One must wonder why was this not adopted or improved upon by the talented individuals at Canonical, especially given the previous enthusiasm for open-source philosophy."
[2014-03-25 01:18:51] <dos1> yeah, one must wonder why haven't they wanted to put a 2G EDGE modem inside shiny-newest-ultrafast beast they were trying to raise runds for (Edge)
[2014-03-25 01:19:22] <dos1> but this one is more important:
[2014-03-25 01:19:23] <dos1> "That is why the Ubuntu Phone displayed so much promise. Since most phones are closed, or only their operating systems are open but not the baseband, it was hoped that Ubuntu Phone would be a first from a major mobile phone manufacturer. OpenMoko was an initial attempt but has since been discontinued."
[2014-03-25 01:20:08] <dos1> Ubuntu Phone hardly ever displayed such promise; neither Openmoko did in fact
[2014-03-25 01:20:42] <dos1> and we sitting in this room are the proof that Openmoko as an "attempt" is all but discontinued
[2014-03-25 01:22:14] <dos1> there are lots of people like that. they heard something about Openmoko, they heard that it was going to be open, then they heard that it failed and that's it
[2014-03-25 01:23:38] <dos1> but what they miss is that the Freerunner exists and still gets some basic community software support (it's more that enough if you plan to hack sw on your own)
[2014-03-25 01:24:29] <dos1> and that an upgrade in the form of GTA04 exists, so it's not "discontinued"
[2014-03-25 01:26:09] <dos1> and that it all transformed into Neo900 - a project that also already opens some opportunities on answering the "what's next?" question
[2014-03-25 01:26:51] <dos1> and that while people working on all of them would love to get free baseband, it's not going to happen to both legal and economical reasons
[2014-03-25 01:27:01] <dos1> it's just impossible
[2014-03-25 01:28:24] <dos1> ech, this is probably bad audience for such rant, most of you probably know most of it, if not all... just had to speak it out
[2014-03-25 01:29:29] <dos1> I'm getting tired of explaining the same all over again each time a topic about baseband openness comes up somewhere I wonder what could be more effective in "educating the masses"...
[2014-03-25 03:43:47] <-- dos1 has left this server (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
[2014-03-25 04:44:09] <DocScrutinizer05> just to add: I'll copy this to tmo, to make it a tad more visible. Nothing else to add to his brilliant analysis... maybe one sidenote: open free GSM baseband is really severely overrated, it's basically irrelevant actually
[2014-03-25 04:45:53] <DocScrutinizer05> I for one don't mind what firmware is running on the modem. I assume it's doing nonsense over the air anyway, but then GSM is "nonsense" by definition and nothing you can do about it, since that's the way it works.
[2014-03-25 04:48:18] <DocScrutinizer05> what I worry about is whether the modem can do nonsense or rather rogue stuff to my *system*. Unlike recent shared-RAM designs of all modern smartphones, the modem CANNOT access the system on any openmoko-spirited phone, and Neo900 even implements tight monitoring of the modem so it can't even do anything sneaky without user noticing it. Apart from that I don't care what it actually does


[[ infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/20140325.html.gz ]]
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#1799
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
[2014-03-25 04:45:53] <DocScrutinizer05> I for one don't mind what firmware is running on the modem. I assume it's doing nonsense over the air anyway, but then GSM is "nonsense" by definition and nothing you can do about it, since that's the way it works.
Pretty much so. The baseband in a UE is just the extension of the network and by itself it never does anything else than react to the RAN L3/L2 signalling. (only exception being maybe the cell update message, nothing else really originates from UE...)


Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
[2014-03-25 04:48:18] <DocScrutinizer05> what I worry about is whether the modem can do nonsense or rather rogue stuff to my *system*. Unlike recent shared-RAM designs of all modern smartphones, the modem CANNOT access the system on any openmoko-spirited phone, and Neo900 even implements tight monitoring of the modem so it can't even do anything sneaky without user noticing it. Apart from that I don't care what it actually does
Also true. There is absolutely no useful gain except financial reasons in having a chipset that has the baseband processing embedded in the main system. The cost gains in HW are largely offset by the SWDEV and integration costs of the system as it ends up as a monster block of binaries and functionality largely a black box to the device developers.
 

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#1800
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
[2014-03-25 01:18:51] <dos1> yeah, one must wonder why haven't they wanted to put a 2G EDGE modem inside shiny-newest-ultrafast beast they were trying to raise runds for (Edge)]
Small self-correction: TI Calypso doesn't even do EDGE, just plain ~60kbit/s GPRS.

When I'm using it on my Neo Freerunner to browse the web sometimes, I'm using links in X11 mode So while it might be somewhat usable for some hardcore nerds like us, it's definitely no-go for their target audience. I seriously can't imagine someone using their new, shiny Ubuntu Edge with Qt Quick and HTML5 based interface with fancy animations to browse the web in the console because anything else is just too slow :P

(and I suppose the same applies to future Neo900 owners, even if the overall "shininess" will be a bit lower there)
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