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2007-04-10
, 17:37
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Posts: 147 |
Thanked: 5 times |
Joined on Jan 2007
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#12
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I own two Newtons, and they are awesome. But HWR sucks for trying to use a terminal. And a keyboard like the Sidekick has is about the same speed as handwriting. So although I'm dying for Einstein to wind up running at a decent speed on this thing, I'd still like a keyboard.
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2007-04-10
, 18:47
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#13
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Originally Posted by gisborne
It is indeed true that connectivity was (and is) the Newton's achilles heel. And the terminal program is about as much removed from the Newton "philosophy" as you can get.
I own two Newtons, and they are awesome. But HWR sucks for trying to use a terminal. And a keyboard like the Sidekick has is about the same speed as handwriting. So although I'm dying for Einstein to wind up running at a decent speed on this thing, I'd still like a keyboard.
Don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying the entire Newton is groovy and the best there is, not by a long shot. Newtons user interface is IMO the best yet developed for pen-centric computing and its HWR (both Rosetta and ParaGraph) still kick major butt.
But!! Newtons connected to Macs poorly and to the rest even worse; they were conceived before the Internet became more than a curiosity; their file system (if you can call it that) was as arcane as -- as a very arcane thing; Newtons often suffered from Apple's "dumb it down to a politician's level" principle. And there's probably other stuff I forget...
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2007-04-11
, 02:22
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Posts: 643 |
Thanked: 628 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Seattle (or thereabouts)
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#14
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
I used my C1000's keyboard for long enough (it was my handheld computer / laptop for more than a year) that toward the end I rarely needed to look at it while typing. I didn't even realize that I'd gotten that comfortable using it until I tried thumb typing on it in the dark once...and didn't really have a problem.
I'm a touch-typist, so I'll gladly concede that I can type much faster than I can write -- on a normally-sized keyboard, that is. Even on my Psion 5mx I couldn't type all that fast and on that keyboard it was actually marginally possible to touch-type (but never for long, because the key placement was just that bit off to what I was used to, that I couldn't help myself from peeking).
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
I haven't managed to wrap my mits around a P910 yet, but I've played with a coworker's Treo for a while and a T-Mobile Dash / HTC Excalibur, and found both to be a painful experience as far as typing is concerned. I actually liked the Zaurus SL-5500's little slide-out thumboard better. I also really liked the form factor of that thing as a PDA.
I have used lots of thumbboards, most extensively the ones on my Treo 270 and subsequently my SE P910. The biggest problem with thumbboards is that it is impossible to type blindly: You always have to keep your eyes on the thumbboard to see what you are tapping at, and in doing so you lose contact with your text. The virtual thumbboard on the 770/N800 is actually rather good in that respect, but only because it leaves just a tiny amount of screen realestate, which is easy to find. Still, try to tap and look at your text at the same time. I dare you...
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
I really should try and get my hands on a Newton one day. Truth be told, I haven't actually used anything with decent fullscreen HWR. I was mainly just adding the experience I had with other devices to the thread.
I consider that the biggest advantage of full-screen handwriting recognition: You keep eye contact with your text at all times, just as you would with real, oldfashioned pen-and-paper handwriting. For me, the trade-off in speed is more than made up by the inherent focus this input method offers. That is why your comparison to the Grafitti-like character recognition is flawed: Grafitti (and its likes) are basically thumbboards without keys.
I've said here before (ad nauseam, to some) that I'm a Newton user of old. In fact, for almost five years, a MessagePad 2100 was more or less my main computer for on the road. I own a keyboard for the Newton (and with the carrying case it actually almost resembled a mini-laptop), but I've used it only a handful of times. For an entire year, I brought my MessagePad to weekly (often dayly) meetings in a major restauration project and took minutes for those meetings. I was faster in handwriting than the guy with the laptop and usually more accurate, mainly because the Newton has such an amazing handwriting recognition system.
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
Maybe they make the train tracks bumpier here? All I know is that I was more comfortable typing on my Zaurus than writing in a notebook. And that's doubly true when there's standing room only.
The really sad thing is that the Newtons HWR still exists: PhatWare sells it as Calligrapher and PenOffice -- for f**king Windows only!! All they have to do is port it to Linux (and Maemo, obviously) and noone will ever ask for a thumbboard again (not entirely true: even on the Newton boards there is the occasional deluded individual who wants a thumbboard. They are usually properly chastised for doing so)
Oh, BTW, I also used my Newton on the train, without keyboard. I actually wrote entire articles on the train.
-John
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2007-04-11
, 06:57
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Posts: 751 |
Thanked: 522 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ East Gowanus
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#15
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I have a XP tablet and the HWR is actually really good, my handwriting is pretty decent. I haven't tried to train the handwriting on N800 but I don't really want to. HWR tech needs to recognize whole words, not just letters. If you could do whole words, inline Newton style this device would just rock even harder than it does already.
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2007-04-11
, 07:09
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Posts: 147 |
Thanked: 5 times |
Joined on Jan 2007
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#16
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I guess I'm imagining something that looks, say, a lot like a Sidekick. Would that not rock? A full keyboard! BASH as it was meant to be. Find someone who has one and watch them operate it. Hard to deny the practicality of the keyboard when they're rocking 40wpm on it. Faster than I could write flat out, let alone writing clearly enough for my Newton's HWR.
The Sidekick is a great form factor as anything but a phone. :-)
While I'm on the subject, the BT keyboard support would be five times more useful if it had BT mouse support. The reason we use a mouse and not a pen with our computers is that switching between a keyboard and a pen is a frustrating and time consuming operation. No different with the N800.
The Sidekick is a great form factor as anything but a phone. :-)
While I'm on the subject, the BT keyboard support would be five times more useful if it had BT mouse support. The reason we use a mouse and not a pen with our computers is that switching between a keyboard and a pen is a frustrating and time consuming operation. No different with the N800.
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2007-04-11
, 07:23
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Posts: 751 |
Thanked: 522 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ East Gowanus
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#17
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BT mouse support would be really nice. It would transform the "desktop" experience.
I have a full qwerty on my E70, its a really comfortable pad and coming from years (02-07) of using the "gullwing" form factor (Nokia 6800, 6820) I am very proficient with it, that said, I still don't really like it for typing out longer than 30 words or so. Thumbpads just aren't that useful, the thumbsize on screen keyboard of the n800 is pretty much all I need.
The best case scenario would be a hard case with a keyboard that you could lock into your lap to use. That way you could go slate only mode or minilaptop if necessary.
I have a full qwerty on my E70, its a really comfortable pad and coming from years (02-07) of using the "gullwing" form factor (Nokia 6800, 6820) I am very proficient with it, that said, I still don't really like it for typing out longer than 30 words or so. Thumbpads just aren't that useful, the thumbsize on screen keyboard of the n800 is pretty much all I need.
The best case scenario would be a hard case with a keyboard that you could lock into your lap to use. That way you could go slate only mode or minilaptop if necessary.
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2007-04-11
, 07:49
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Posts: 92 |
Thanked: 2 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Toulouse, France
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#18
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
I completely agree. There's a world of difference between a normally-sized keyboard and the kind of thing you get with Sidekicks, Treos, Sony Mylos and so on. I don't want to become proficient with a thumbboard because I'm afraid that, as a trade-off, my ability to use a proper keyboard might suffer. One of the main things that attracted me to the N800 was its ability to work with bluetooth keyboards.
I'm a touch-typist, so I'll gladly concede that I can type much faster than I can write -- on a normally-sized keyboard, that is.
I'm afraid I missed out on the Newton. I was on the point of buying an eMate at one stage but it would have stretched my budget just a little too far at the time. Then Steve Jobs returned to save his old company and decreed that they needed to simplify their product line. Encore raté, as my nephew says.
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2007-04-11
, 09:43
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#19
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Originally Posted by mobiledivide
The reason the HWR on XP is that good, is that you are almost certainly using ParaGraph's HWR engine, licensed to Microsoft.
I have a XP tablet and the HWR is actually really good, my handwriting is pretty decent. I haven't tried to train the handwriting on N800 but I don't really want to. HWR tech needs to recognize whole words, not just letters. If you could do whole words, inline Newton style this device would just rock even harder than it does already.
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2007-04-11
, 09:47
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#20
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Originally Posted by artkavanagh
EMates go for almost nothing on eBay; MessagePads (2000, 2000upgraded and 2100) are more expensive, up to USD 200 for complete kits.
I'm afraid I missed out on the Newton. I was on the point of buying an eMate at one stage but it would have stretched my budget just a little too far at the time. Then Steve Jobs returned to save his old company and decreed that they needed to simplify their product line. Encore raté, as my nephew says.
I wouldn't buy any of the earlier models if your plan is to try out the cursive HWR: the 1*0 models are the "Doonesbury" models, with not enough CPU horsepower to do decent ParaGraph cursive HWR. Rosetta (Apple's "intelligent" printed HWR) is fine, though.
But to get back on topic; the thumb board on the beastie is very much more usable than any of the input methods on Marvin, and I am more than twice as fast with the thumb board. And it's a relatively small one.
The downside of a thumb board for Marvin would be it necessarily would make him thicker and heavier and more expensive. Probably not on par with an OQO, but close. I'm thinking that now that the OQO model 02 is out, the Model 01 plus might just be approaching the price of an N800 soon. And there's a whole forum over at oqotalk.com about running Linux on it. Hmmmm ...