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qgil is offline qgil
2010-04-30 , 04:33
Posts: 3,105 | Thanked: 11,088 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)
#61
fwiw Mer had it's % of inspiration and contribution to MeeGo. Stskeeps and lbt (two of the more dedicated Mer developers) were working in MeeGo stuff right after the launch, and Mer was probably the most concrete item in their "CVs" related to the tasks they were supposed to do.

If this work in MeeGo benefits Mer or the N8*0, that's up to them I guess. As seen in all free software communities, sometimes moving from hobbyist to pro brings more time and quality to your hobby projects, and sometimes does the opposite. I personally think that having a job related to your hobbies does help you enjoying your hobbies more (as opposed to work on something disconnected, or be looking for a job).
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CrashandDie is offline CrashandDie
2010-04-30 , 04:53
Posts: 336 | Thanked: 610 times | Joined on Apr 2008 @ France
#62
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
I personally think that having a job related to your hobbies does help you enjoying your hobbies more (as opposed to work on something disconnected, or be looking for a job).
As much as you risk having your passion that was dedicated at your hobbies be transfered to your work. It is definitely a risk; as in most common cases, you don't own, or really control your work.
 
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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-04-30 , 12:22
Posts: 1,671 | Thanked: 11,478 times | Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland
#63
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
If you mean the latter, then all these different gadgets he was aiming for seem to negate your argument about being focused on the platform--and now with the N900 speak, I'm less convinced that the distmaster shares legacy hardware concerns.. while Nokia continues to pump out a newer kernel/software/fixes for their new stuff... where end users couldn't care less what's happening with the distmaster's work.
So, I'm also distmaster for N900. However, the day I became distmaster, I haven't focused on any other hardware than 770, N8x0 and N900. There was the Maemo-on-OMAP project, which was more of assistance to a TI contact to make it easier for developers so they could develop for Maemo without getting a N900. Worthwhile cause to help get developers towards the platform?

I've also been playing with my Joggler lately, but that's been outside of work hours and a personal project.

Clarify for me, if you would please, why I shouldn't feel exasperated and express it as an end user.
I understand that you feel like that and why. However, we're here now. And I'm wondering how we should go forward - how would you like to see your N8x0 in 3 months?

Near as I can tell, it never got to a point where anyone outside of kernel coding could contribute anything worth doing yet.
I think kernel code was probably the least worked area in Mer.
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Last edited by Stskeeps; 2010-04-30 at 13:01.
 

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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-04-30 , 12:27
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#64
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Never got that impression so far.

I would just like to know that, ultimately, there's a reason why I should bother to hold onto this thing they convinced me to buy on the promises of openness and open-source. I still remember old N800 ads claiming 'future-proof because it's based on open-source'.
They actually advertised that? Wow.

Tinkerer as I am, I don't dabble in coding to the kernel level but I can still manage to compile and run a CURRENT kernel on my old 486DX4/100MHz in the other room... yet I find it incredibly difficult to make my N800 run anything as current. The promises of Mer raised and then ruined all my hopes.
At least with the kernel, there's talented people working on patches to update things. We actually stayed at old kernel in Mer as the newer kernels would loose features for the users, so updating the kernel wasn't a priority.. That's changing now.

I digress. When you DO get to reading my criticisms, keep in mind that I'm a highly critical bastard (of others as well as myself) and that I don't compliment much. You deserve a large heaping of praise for letting people vent, point out flaws and taking it with incredible grace. I hope you understand that the person on the other end of the terminal is more annoyed with the way Nokia (and all guilty parties involved.. they know who they are) set these things up to fail than with anything you've done or failed to do. For lack of a better phrase: you asked for it.
There's a tiny bit of masochism in me and all the work I do, isn't there?
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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-04-30 , 12:34
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#65
Originally Posted by geneven View Post
Someone implied that some criticism has been less than fully informed.
At least I hope with this thread to help inform why, how and where things were the way it is.

The point was made that the community wasn't very involved in the development of Mer and thus shares some responsibility for its failure.
Probably so, but I don't think that a good job of momentum-building was done. I remember personally expressing skepticism at whether it was necessary to stop everything and wait for the two drivers. There were other delays that seemed mysterious to me. Once it became clear how great Mer's potential was, there must have been greater and greater willingness to help out.
On the other hand, maemo.org community was traditionally that of application developers. I've said at some point that OS developers came to the community, had their patches ignored in bugtrackers, no management of contributions, left again - Mer helped organise these contributions better.

I don't see why Nokia would cry when tablet owners were essentially smothered by those with other preoccupations about the N900 or MeeGo. The renaming of ITT was not just some isolated decison and neither was the foundering of Mer. They were all part of a reallignment of power in favor of the one who was paying the bills.
I've myself said that we needed to get the community prepared for the influx of a lot of interested users, contributors, etc. It wasn't handled too well in my opinion and it scared away people who made out the backbone of the community from this place. The realignment of power thing I really don't have words for commenting on, sorry.

That was not your fault; maybe it was inevitable as soon as the true interests of those with internet tablets acquired second-class status.
It's a sad fact, but they are second-class hardware - first-class hardware is something like the N900. Now, what we do with them is what matters..
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Last edited by Stskeeps; 2010-04-30 at 12:58.
 

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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-04-30 , 12:39
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#66
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
The tone is unfortunate. In my interactions with stskeeps, I have seen that he is a tremendous asset. I think he is lightning rod for dissatisfactions that mostly properly lie elsewhere.
Just consider the beatings Andre (our bugmaster) is getting then. Someone really ought to thank him more and send good wine and flowers for putting up with all the lightning. :P

Thank you for funding Carsten. He is a valuable asset to our community. Please leverage your investment by helping him help the Maemo (not MeeGo) community.
In this particular case I'll note something of myself personal: If I only have to look in the past and reuse skills and not acquire new skills, knowledge, experience by experimental projects, my motivation drops immensely. In this case, MeeGo work is a source of 'futuristic' work which I can then help bring back to N8x0s. I don't want to be left behind if/when the maemo.org rapture comes around and everyone moved on to MeeGo.
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2010-04-30 , 12:52
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#67
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
A couple casual thoughts...

yes, it is about the apps. There are 500+ Maemo 4 apps. As much as people have investments in the N8x0 devices, aren't there as much if not more investments in the Maemo 4 software?

Can we afford to wait for a few iterations (6 month cycle) of MeeGo? I think not.

stskeeps can work on the n8x0 h/w adaption layer, but shouldn't someone also work on the "Maemo API adaption" layer?
Another good argument for MeeGo is the fact that well, it is built for ARMv5, ARMv7 with an indication of it staying around.. and maybe, let's say that the default MeeGo ARM SDK (Qt creator, MADDE, etc) would be targetting a low ARM version by default or building both..

Doesn't this mean that many new apps for MeeGo (qt) will be available on MeeGo N8x0 too? How many apps do you think MeeGo will attract?

But you're right regarding Maemo API adaptation. Can we even get hildon and maemo gtk to play nice in MeeGo? The second problem is packaging, all the Maemo4/5 apps would have to be repackaged. Can we return to this topic in MeeGo for N8x0 because it is something I worry about as well?
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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-04-30 , 12:55
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#68
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
I don't know all that you do, it's honestly way over my head. And I don't even mind admitting that. If anything though, I have one very simple request - please catch me up. What's happening for my N810? Do you mind catching up my simpleton mind since it seems like I've missed out on some very key announcements.
I'll say same as I said to danramos - how do you want to see your N8x0 in three months?

I can continue blogging about N8x0 stuff on mer-project.blogspot.com I guess.
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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-04-30 , 13:00
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#69
Right, so. How do we turn the sour lemons into lemonade?

We're in a bad situation but not as bad as when Fremantle got announced not to be ported to N8x0. How can we make things better?

Imagine me having 10 hours a week just for N8x0 things. What do you want me to do in those hours?

In addition to that: Given the choice, how would you like to see your N8x0 in 3,6,9,12 months, with emphasis on that it should not be a waste of time for those involved to make it get there, short and long term.
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Last edited by Stskeeps; 2010-04-30 at 13:24.
 

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gerbick
2010-04-30 , 13:14
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#70
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
I'll say same as I said to danramos - how do you want to see your N8x0 in three months?
Honestly? Since you asked, I'll give you my "to the Moon" expectation first, followed by my rather realistic expectation...

I would love to have a refreshed UI, sans 3D transitions (I don't need them) that allows for existing N900 apps that mostly came from the Diablo days (read: RTComm, Xournal, DialCentral, Tear, Flash Player, Mauku 2, Skype, Evince, MPlayer, HomeTools) that is trimmed down a bit services-wise so it will be a bit leaner and "fit" on the N810 better and run nicer. Webkit based browser as the default, Mail that's installable after the fact (I don't use it, I use webmail mostly first and I dislike IMAP on the N810). That's my mile high wishlist...

To be honest, I'd just love a refreshed UI, a streamlined install from the kernel up, some more fixes that the Community SSU might not be able to provide, (easier) Yahoo via RTComm, better RTComm integration (sorta like N900)... and a real removal of the Mail app. I'm seriously down for gutting the OS a bit to almost barebones levels and build up instead.

I guess I'd like to feel up-to-date somewhat more than "Fixed in Fremantle" or "WONTFIX" has made me feel for a while.

I can continue blogging about N8x0 stuff on mer-project.blogspot.com I guess.
Awesome. I know your time is limited, thanks for taking the time to respond to us here. It's not about what all you can you do by yourself. As a community, whatever little bits we can do to help you, let us know.
Last edited by gerbick; 2010-04-30 at 13:19.
 

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