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kureyon is offline kureyon
2010-12-17 , 04:02
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#141
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Sure, but isn't the Galaxy Tab another example of a commercial product with a mix of open and closed source bringing some differentiation?
The difference being that android based phones, and android itself in general, is not being promoted as open-this/open-that.
 

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tso is offline tso
2010-12-17 , 04:31
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#142
also, android is designed to have parts of replaced with "ease", thanks to its "intent" system and such. Yes i do not like how Google handles the market issue (or their closed door development cycle), but the basic design of android is flexible and open to adaption (catching even Google off guard).
 

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lemmyslender is offline lemmyslender
2010-12-17 , 13:59
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#143
We can argue about degree of openess or open vs. closed, but here's what I think most consumers are going to care about in the future (as somedude points out, I'm not as worried about open if I'm getting regular updates, which may also apply to danramos)

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
By the by--my Samsung Galaxy Tab already got the newest updated Android Market.. and, best of all, I got the new vector-mapped Google Maps 5.0 on both my Tab and my Droid... and it is INCREDIBLE. Everybody here in the office went NUTS over it.. and the guy in the next cubicle (who was literally about to buy a Blackberry today) decided instead to go out today to get a Samsung android Galaxy S phone after seeing that alone. He was already paying for a navigation service that offered nothing quite this fluid and useful... and this is FREEEEEEE from Google.
Look at that, dan has devices from two different manufacturers, he didn't have to wait for a big firmware update, and he is running the latest version of Google Maps on both for FREE. In fact, I even updated my nitdroid install last night with the new 5.0 version, right from the Marketplace, no fuss, no muss. Didn't even cross my mind that I wouldn't be able to. Didn't need to worry about my interpretation of marketing speak vs the Google interpretation.

If MeeGo (on Nokia or any other manufacturer) ends up being UI with a bunch of closed default apps (not easily removed/replaced), that are infrequently updated (or not updated to the latest version on a newer device), I think it's easy to see which way the mass public will go.
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2010-12-17 , 14:48
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#144
Originally Posted by lemmyslender View Post
Look at that, dan has devices from two different manufacturers, he didn't have to wait for a big firmware update, and he is running the latest version of Google Maps on both for FREE. In fact, I even updated my nitdroid install last night with the new 5.0 version, right from the Marketplace, no fuss, no muss. Didn't even cross my mind that I wouldn't be able to. Didn't need to worry about my interpretation of marketing speak vs the Google interpretation.
This is a big problem for Android right now, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Does the new Google Maps run on the SE X10? What about Angry Birds? The N900 had updates; the Galaxy Tab has updates.

The openness - which is being discussed here - affects what happens when those updates stop. And they do stop. For every device; no matter how open it is.
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lemmyslender is offline lemmyslender
2010-12-17 , 15:26
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#145
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
This is a big problem for Android right now, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Does the new Google Maps run on the SE X10? What about Angry Birds? The N900 had updates; the Galaxy Tab has updates.

The openness - which is being discussed here - affects what happens when those updates stop. And they do stop. For every device; no matter how open it is.
I don't expect updates forever on a given device. Nor do I expect all updates to work the same across multiple devices, or even work on all devices.

I don't know if the new maps version works on the X10. From this link
Android 1.6+ devices can install Maps 5.0, but dynamic map drawing, 3D interactions, and offline features require Android 2.0+, and some features may not be supported for all devices.
So I suspect that it may work on the X10 (not all features).

I guess I'm looking at openness slightly differently than some. For instance, I can buy an HTC G1 on ebay (an older device than the N900) for relatively cheap. Rooted, I can install 2.2 on it, and presumably get the latest versions of Google Maps, Gmail, etc (core apps) running on it (albeit perhaps not all features, and slowly). I also believe there are other phones out there I can do the same on.

Now, with Nokia, MeeGo, and the N900. I'm likely to get a community supported "upgrade" to MeeGo on the N900 (much like 2.2 on the G1). Except, I'm not likely to get Nokia core apps (maps, email, etc) on the N900 running MeeGo am I?

So, despite any degree of openness of the underlying software, it seems to me that Google (and certain manufacturers) are more open to the community supporting the latest greatest on older devices, thus extending their useful life. Whereas Nokia would prefer to sell me a new device, the N9 (being Step 1 of x) to get the latest greatest.

Is this going to be a problem for Google now and in the future? Sure, it will. Will they come up with a solution? Perhaps. Right now, Android looks like a better bet for my next device than MeeGo does. Heck, right now, Nitdroid looks more likely to me, to extend the life of my N900 than MeeGo does.
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-12-17 , 18:56
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#146
Consumers in general don't care specifically about open vs closed. They have proven that with their wallets. So let's move past that part.

They (we) DO care about product support of a reasonable degree and timeline. Open source CAN make a difference there, IF companies are willing to continuously open closed parts (that are continuously replaced by newer/faster/better/shinier closed parts).

The rate of technological change SHOULD be helping there-- advances supersede protected technology at so fast a rate that patents in some areas are rendered almost meaningless. Businesses, Nokia included, have not kept up. BUT-- Nokia is catching the greatest flack here because they have dared to try.

The problem, as we have discussed here ad nauseum, is that while evangelists like Quim see and preach this new reality, far too many executives are afraid of it. Yes, that includes many in Nokia. They need to be enlightened.

Harping at Nokia here may be cathartic, but getting the gripes closer to decision makers is more productive. That means moving the podium out of THIS environment and as close to Nokia as possible. Forum Nokia is a good place, and so are certain blogs. Funny, though-- when I blog on this subject (policy change at Nokia, et al) there's usually little enagagement there... whereas there are thousands of comments here.

So let's get this subject out of the maemo.org darkness and into the light. We can see that griping here has improved nothing... and Quim can only carry so much of the burden.
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danramos is offline danramos
2010-12-17 , 20:24
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#147
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Sure, but isn't the Galaxy Tab another example of a commercial product with a mix of open and closed source bringing some differentiation?

Are you aware of what is open and what is closed in the Galaxy Tab? Please share. Are you asking Samsung to open more components of the product you own as much as you are asking here? Just curious.
I am aware! The point I'm making is precisely that: So if you're both going to be doing the same things, and I see so many more attractive qualities in Android and so much wasted open opportunities in Maemo to have done better, then what ARE you doing to be better? Really?

For the record, yes. I harass the Google and Samsung folks about it too. Ironically, I've seen far more opened and less tethered dependencies on closed applications from that camp lately. What are you doing to convince me you're doing better?

Originally Posted by lemmyslender View Post
We can argue about degree of openess or open vs. closed, but here's what I think most consumers are going to care about in the future (as somedude points out, I'm not as worried about open if I'm getting regular updates, which may also apply to danramos)



Look at that, dan has devices from two different manufacturers, he didn't have to wait for a big firmware update, and he is running the latest version of Google Maps on both for FREE. In fact, I even updated my nitdroid install last night with the new 5.0 version, right from the Marketplace, no fuss, no muss. Didn't even cross my mind that I wouldn't be able to. Didn't need to worry about my interpretation of marketing speak vs the Google interpretation.

If MeeGo (on Nokia or any other manufacturer) ends up being UI with a bunch of closed default apps (not easily removed/replaced), that are infrequently updated (or not updated to the latest version on a newer device), I think it's easy to see which way the mass public will go.
This, by far, was the best grok of exactly what I've been saying. Now that I've rooted, hell--I don't even use Google's Launcher (the desktop manager) anymore--I went and got LauncherPro which is a FAR, far better application.. and it broke NOTHING for me replacing the desktop with another app. I've also tried out ADWLauncher and others. All without anything complaining. Can anybody say the same for Maemo's desktop? I've also was able to run ad-blockers and remove crapware that was forced on me--all without any hiccups. I feel free to replace any portion of the OS without feeling like it'll damage everything else. I've never had that much freedom on my Maemo OS's. Why?? Android doesn't even advertise itself on openness while Maemo clearly does but feels so much more constricted.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Consumers in general don't care specifically about open vs closed. They have proven that with their wallets. So let's move past that part.
This is true to a point. They care when they can see the difference and it hampers their ownership over a device. NOBODY would, for example, buy a car where the hood/bonnet is locked except to only the dealer/manufacturer. There would be a HUGE uproar if manufacturers started to do this as a trend, even. The general public didn't recognize or know the difference with electronics for a long time, but they started to feel it once DRM creeped in and started to effect them in ways they didn't appreciate (like when they bought an iPod years ago, then were soured to find out their iTunes songs couldn't be used on anything else later...meanwhile DRM-less formats like mp3's were able to play everywhere). Similarly, closed-source software and a dependency on it for your architecture fosters the same situation.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
BUT-- Nokia is catching the greatest flack here because they have dared to try.
Dared to try...what? What several others have done and Google did better? I'm not sure I get what Nokia has done differently. When I first got into Maemo,I thought they were really interested in open-source, but the truth is that they were far more interested in claiming to be open-source while picking out closed-source components and tried their best to make sure you never uninstalled the Nokia and partner software (RealAudio, Skype, Gizmo..). Various users brag about how you don't need to root the N900 to do various things, but you still need to get root access enabled to remove this crapware and you STILL can't remove or replace various simple piece of software (i.e. media player) without causing harm to the system. Is that really worthy of a "they dared to try?" It seems like a dishonest and confused attempt to claim openness at best and an outright scam to mislead open-source interested customers at the worst.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
The problem, as we have discussed here ad nauseum, is that while evangelists like Quim see and preach this new reality, far too many executives are afraid of it. Yes, that includes many in Nokia. They need to be enlightened.
I'm not sure that he's been effective--though I'm not saying that it's for lack of trying. I am saying that while an engineer can try to promote it, perhaps the smarter solution is to have a LEGAL open-source evangelist onboard. That is, an open-source lawyer who can promote it from the legal side so that the business people can feel less nervous about making such decisions to open up. Far too often, the executives in large companies feel that they need to "reign in" the technology people and it would help to have a lawyer to point out that there is, or isn't, a risk to implementing these things.

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
Harping at Nokia here may be cathartic, but getting the gripes closer to decision makers is more productive. That means moving the podium out of THIS environment and as close to Nokia as possible. Forum Nokia is a good place, and so are certain blogs. Funny, though-- when I blog on this subject (policy change at Nokia, et al) there's usually little enagagement there... whereas there are thousands of comments here.

So let's get this subject out of the maemo.org darkness and into the light. We can see that griping here has improved nothing... and Quim can only carry so much of the burden.
Wait... isn't this talk.maemo.org? TALK... MAEMO....? Aren't we talking about Maemo? What's the council about again? Please refresh me, here. It STILL boggles me that Nokia would have anything to do with these forums (including funding them) if they aren't going to use them to listen and collaborate with users and developers. Perhaps they're not interested. More reason to let people know about that and complain here, since this is where people will assume you talk about Maemo. We do talk about Maemo in particular here, right?

Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
This is a big problem for Android right now, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Does the new Google Maps run on the SE X10? What about Angry Birds? The N900 had updates; the Galaxy Tab has updates.
Yes, Google Maps runs on the X10. You just don't get the spiffy features that require an accelerated 3D graphics architecture. Yes, Angry Birds will run--Angry Birds runs even on non-3D accelerated hardware. :P More importantly, though, you can't expect all software to work (or work with all features) on devices that don't have the hardware for it... but at least you'll get a large majority of apps that do. This isn't too different from being hobbled on the desktop OS's with various types of platform and capabilities limited by the hardware you have on your system. I rather LIKE that kind of assurance. ...unlike the artificial lack of support I'd experienced from the Nokia Maemo experience. Anyone still remember Wayfinder? I paid for it. I had bought the car kit! The software still works GREAT... I didn't need or expect any more upgrades (although that would have been a plus), but it's unforgivable to not be supported with updated maps. At LEAST give me the option to buy updated maps. Nope! Go out and buy yourself an N900. Naw--forget that, I'm far happier with Google Maps, thanks. I don't even need to buy it AND it's always up-to-date. Night and day difference in experiences.

Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
The openness - which is being discussed here - affects what happens when those updates stop. And they do stop. For every device; no matter how open it is.
Far sooner for some than others.
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lemmyslender is offline lemmyslender
2010-12-17 , 20:41
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#148
Texrat-

Does your blog get as many daily views as TMO? I'll hazard a guess that not as many people read your blog as read TMO. Hence the seemingly disproportionate responses. And dare I say that this isn't some random forum on the web, Nokia is certainly aware of it's existence. Doesn't mean it's the best place to carry on these debates, but surely not an unexpected place.

I'll disagree that Nokia is catching flack for what they have dared to do, but for what they have failed to do.
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ZogG is offline ZogG
2010-12-17 , 22:10
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#149
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Sure, but isn't the Galaxy Tab another example of a commercial product with a mix of open and closed source bringing some differentiation?

Are you aware of what is open and what is closed in the Galaxy Tab? Please share. Are you asking Samsung to open more components of the product you own as much as you are asking here? Just curious.
agreed with the "he Galaxy Tab another example of a commercial product with a mix of open and closed source", but as well, they do have bugfixes and support on those closed parts. i don't mind if my phone/computer have closed source drivers, if the support is comming.
one of ideas of open-source is that anyone can use it and support it, where u can apply patches with fixes and new features(or forks at all). and if one who started, there would be other people to continue and support.
on other hand, cosed drivers are problematic, as u company saying how to use it and if the should improve/fix something or not. and it can be disaster if they stop supporting it(n900 hello).
So u can't say - n900 is dev phone and powerful tool to make apps and improvements, while u keep parts closed and u can't say it's ready for end user as u don't do it yourself.
 

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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-12-17 , 22:12
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#150
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
This, by far, was the best grok of exactly what I've been saying. Now that I've rooted, hell--I don't even use Google's Launcher (the desktop manager) anymore--I went and got LauncherPro which is a FAR, far better application.. and it broke NOTHING for me replacing the desktop with another app. I've also tried out ADWLauncher and others. All without anything complaining. Can anybody say the same for Maemo's desktop?
Oh, I'm sure that the myriad of patched hildon-desktops around here modifying virtually any behaviour do not really exist...

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Various users brag about how you don't need to root the N900 to do various things, but you still need to get root access enabled to remove this crapware and you STILL can't remove or replace various simple piece of software (i.e. media player) without causing harm to the system. Is that really worthy of a "they dared to try?" It seems like a dishonest and confused attempt to claim openness at best and an outright scam to mislead open-source interested customers at the worst.
I think you are getting this completely wrong. What people and even qgil himself bragged about is the easness by which people can root their own N900s, even in a Nokia-approved fashion. On your average Android phone the process is insanely more complicated, and the device vendor will usually try to stop you from doing it. After rooting, you're free to replace whatever you want of the system. The N900 even has a myriad of alternatives operating systems you can run on it (remember they replace _everyting_), including some other devices propietary ones. How many Android phones run something other than Android?

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
Yes, Google Maps runs on the X10. You just don't get the spiffy features that require an accelerated 3D graphics architecture. Yes, Angry Birds will run--Angry Birds runs even on non-3D accelerated hardware. :P More importantly, though, you can't expect all software to work (or work with all features) on devices that don't have the hardware for it... but at least you'll get a large majority of apps that do. This isn't too different from being hobbled on the desktop OS's with various types of platform and capabilities limited by the hardware you have on your system. I rather LIKE that kind of assurance. ...unlike the artificial lack of support I'd experienced from the Nokia Maemo experience. Anyone still remember Wayfinder? I paid for it. I had bought the car kit! The software still works GREAT... I didn't need or expect any more upgrades (although that would have been a plus), but it's unforgivable to not be supported with updated maps. At LEAST give me the option to buy updated maps. Nope! Go out and buy yourself an N900. Naw--forget that, I'm far happier with Google Maps, thanks. I don't even need to buy it AND it's always up-to-date. Night and day difference in experiences.
Thank Wayfinder for going nearly bankrupt and being bought!

Btw, Google Maps looks like is a closed source application to me.


Please, please don't confuse lack of support with openness.
Last edited by javispedro; 2010-12-17 at 22:15.
 

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