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abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2012-06-19 , 16:16
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#131
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Just for clarification, there are three topics mixed in some posts of this thread that belong to different baskets:

- Funding the maemo.org server maintenance. The topic discussed here. Kate and I keep working.

- Keeping the *.nokia.com repositories and downloads for N900, N9, etc. This is related to the products life cycle, customer care, guarantees, etc.

- Opening Fremantle / Harmattan Nokia proprietary source code. Itīs not going to happen. As discussed previously, and in the current context it is even more complicated.

Back to the maemo.org funding, Kate has been doing progress with the budget owner and is in talks with Nemein to see what can be done with the budget available. The idea is to share details with the Council as soon as we have a budget confirmed and a draft proposal of what to do with it.
This sounds to me like the so called help from Nokia will run to the expected "products life cycle, customer care, guarantees, etc" and then after that it is goodbye from Nokia.

"- Opening Fremantle / Harmattan Nokia proprietary source code. Itīs not going to happen. As discussed previously, and in the current context it is even more complicated"

Without this the community is working against the wall and you skip past it with some brief explanation and once again as clear as mud, how about you explain just why this is the case in as much detail as possible even if it takes your legal dept to work on the answer because maybe there is room for court action for this.

OK you and Kate do the work on funding a community that has very little of the source code it needs, it is all a mess from start to finish but that's Nokia for you !.
 
misiak is offline misiak
2012-06-19 , 16:41
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#132
Originally Posted by abill_uk View Post
"- Opening Fremantle / Harmattan Nokia proprietary source code. Itīs not going to happen. As discussed previously, and in the current context it is even more complicated"

Without this the community is working against the wall and you skip past it with some brief explanation and once again as clear as mud, how about you explain just why this is the case in as much detail as possible even if it takes your legal dept to work on the answer because maybe there is room for court action for this.

OK you and Kate do the work on funding a community that has very little of the source code it needs, it is all a mess from start to finish but that's Nokia for you !.
From programmer's point of view (I'm not related to CSSU team and do very little for N900, but I do a lot of embedded development generally) I can tell you that Nokia's proprietary sources are not as essencial as you may think, we may rewrite all this silly gui stuff and replace few softwares with open equivalents or rewrite them. More essential proprietary parts are drivers for various components, but most of them are not Nokia's intelectual property and even Nokia may not have the sources, so they cannot open it.. If we had the drivers, in the long run we could even port one of OpenMoko's operating systems to N900. Or write our own from scratch or basing on Debian or something.

Nokia is not in good enogh financial condition to risk any court trials with other giants and patent trolls, you should understand that, abill_uk.

Oh, and by the way, Kate, Qgil, thanks for all information and your will to do something for our community inside Nokia i think you know that already, but there are many of us who really appreciate your efforts and are very thankful. Let me (us) know if you need any help with anything.

Back to the topic: when (IF) the autobuilder and repositories were to be moved, what about older hardware (N770, N800, N810, N810 WiMax)? Council should take into consideration these ancient (no offence) infrastructure for older devices.
[B]edit:[/] last question is rethorical ofc, don't answer now, only take into consideration if any estimations are to be made. This almost doubles/triples the amount of stuff to be moved.
Last edited by misiak; 2012-06-19 at 16:43.
 

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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2012-06-19 , 17:16
Posts: 1,671 | Thanked: 11,478 times | Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland
#133
Originally Posted by abill_uk View Post
It is good to see some of the old members on this thread and it proves we do stick together !.

I even see stskeeps on the viewers and i am happy to see him still coming on Maemo.org, would be nice for Carsten to say a few words.
I don't have much to say as I'm mostly observing maemo.org these days:

0) Be patient for Quim and Kate to work out what they can do. It isn't of their choice things are going south, it's a company decision that budgets are changing and it simply takes time to figure out what the new parameters are and what budgets go into things.

This doesn't mean you can't prepare for the future, because:

1) Concrete proposals are needed for community future and deciding, as you can't put community/paid manpower/$$$ on it otherwise.

At least we have a quite sane council this time around that is about doing and not just talking.

A self-sustaining community comes by a lot of blood, sweat and tears. And sacrifice.

Consider seeing the community as a co-operative - that's what we do in Mer - we expect that vendors when they are taking advantage of the co-operative output, they contribute back how they can, lowering the cost/time needed to keep the project running for everybody involved.

This however also means you can't angrily demand things without having somehow contributed - you have to treat each other with mutual respect. You're all in it together for the mutual benefit for each other and unless you pitch in and/or contribute, it's not cool to complain (on actual issues is ok, if you volunteer for things too) and abuse other people's time in endless discussions, which they could be using to do constructive work. It goes both ways though.

2) Make sure to look to how other open source projects handle things and look to existing working models. Be aware that in practice (this is my view) maemo.org is a service-providing community (providing wiki, app repositories, etc) with little actual software development to manage (CSSU is mostly self-managing) and govern. That may make things easier.

3) The "maemo" community OBS work is probably the thing that'll make it a lot cheaper to handle applications for the community. Mer runs on a 300 EUR/month infra budget with a bunch of http://www.hetzner.de/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex5 's and we build far more bizarre packages and architectures than maemo.org autobuilder.

Help X-Fade to test the new Harmattan cross compiler builds, which also help the factual cost of maintaining extras repositories. Look into documentation of Scratchbox2 (please, note, "2") - consider helping documenting it's ways for others to use and improve upon for community benefit. http://maemo.gitorious.org/scratchbo...es/master/docs

Expect that you probably will, at some point, move beyond current URL locations of Extras.

and 4) Decide what edge cases can't reasonably be supported by the community - as in, what fat do we need to cut in order to survive?

HTH
Last edited by Stskeeps; 2012-06-19 at 17:27.
 

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abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2012-06-19 , 18:01
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#134
Respect to you Carsten and thank you for coming on here to talk.... THANKS.
 
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misterc is offline misterc
2012-06-19 , 20:46
Posts: 1,625 | Thanked: 998 times | Joined on Aug 2010
#135
Originally Posted by jalyst View Post
You got.....
http://trololololololololololo.com/

Don't feed him, he'll go back under his bridge eventually, once he's worked himself into a lather of disgust with TMO/FMC again
It was funny following him in the epic N9 anticipation thread, good entertainment value I must admit, I do hope he sticks around longer this time.
you don't know what you want, do you?


Originally Posted by jalyst View Post
Just in case you haven't bothered reading the entire thing (don't blame you with all the noise).
It's put best around the end of pg 3 for and start of Pg 8 IIRC, plus this latest update from qgil.
you, as a matter of fact, are as entertaining (and annoying, alas...) as a busy crossroad at peak time...
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Last edited by misterc; 2012-06-19 at 21:07.
 
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misterc is offline misterc
2012-06-19 , 21:40
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#136
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris View Post
Is it official yet or what's going on in this thread?
2nd that "?"
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lma is offline lma
2012-06-19 , 22:45
Posts: 2,802 | Thanked: 4,491 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#137
Originally Posted by freemangordon View Post
maemo-extras should pretty enough, there are enough packages there that could be used for the purpose.
Nothing that's universally installed, and it's probably not a great idea to hijack unrelated packages for this purpose anyway.

Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
Maybe we could make a wiki page on how to backup all non-redistributable files? Maybe even a script that can do that automatically?
There have been a few efforts along those lines already, search for "apt-mirror" here and in the wiki.

I could very easily make a script that downloads all firmware images automatically requiring only your WLAN id as input for example.
True, but hardly worth the effort - those can be downloaded manually once, stored in a safe place and forgotten, it's not like they will ever change in the future.
 

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freemangordon is offline freemangordon
2012-06-20 , 00:44
Posts: 3,074 | Thanked: 12,960 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ Sofia,Bulgaria
#138
Originally Posted by lma View Post
Nothing that's universally installed, and it's probably not a great idea to hijack unrelated packages for this purpose anyway.
Yeah, I got it. Mind to share your great idea. Aah, yes, lets cut the expenses and provide repositories only for the elite. i.e those who are active here every now and then, the real geeks. Those who know WTF CSSU is. After all these guys are the true FOSS lovers, aren't they. The others could suck it.

BTW the last time i've checked how debian repos work, we could even push a new version of mp-fremantle-generic-pr through maemo-extras if we have repository admin on our side. But that is a stupid idea of course, we'd better do nothing, as it could hurt someone's tender soul.

Meh.
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720p video support on N900,SmartReflex on N900,Keyboard and mouse support on N900
Nothing is impossible - Stable thumb2 on n900

Community SSU developer
kernel-power developer and maintainer
 

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lma is offline lma
2012-06-20 , 01:14
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#139
Originally Posted by freemangordon View Post
Yeah, I got it. Mind to share your great idea. Aah, yes, lets cut the expenses and provide repositories only for the elite. i.e those who are active here every now and then, the real geeks. Those who know WTF CSSU is. After all these guys are the true FOSS lovers, aren't they. The others could suck it.
I don't know where you got that, I'm arguing for quite the opposite: do everything we can to keep the repositories hosted as "repository.maemo.org" (regardless of physical and network location) so they will continue working for everyone without reconfiguration. Precisely because it's practically impossible to push out that reconfiguration.

BTW the last time i've checked how debian repos work, we could even push a new version of mp-fremantle-generic-pr through maemo-extras if we have repository admin on our side.
HAM won't let you do that, as the nokia.com repositories are in a higher trust domain over the maemo.org ones. See here for details (or the CSSU enabler package).
 

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abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2012-06-20 , 03:41
Banned | Posts: 3,412 | Thanked: 1,043 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#140
I don't think anyone knows what is official or not because once again it is all as clear as mud with some thinking they can rule the world with there comments.

Now is the time for action against Nokia if there ever was one but as per usual no one wants to even look at this.
 
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