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Poll: Who is it in your opinion?
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Who is it in your opinion?

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Lumiaman
2012-11-03 , 03:47
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#141
Looks like you and Dave are the trolls of the forum.
 
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2012-11-03 , 07:31
Posts: 7,074 | Thanked: 9,069 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#142
Originally Posted by rm42 View Post
Dave,

The term "troll" is one of the oldest ones in internet lingo. Other related terms are "astroturfer" and "kook". You can find these term definitions in several places. One of the most authoritative is the Hacker Dictionary.

http://youtu.be/uSbh2MsxdNs

PS: I can deal with trolls. The ones I really can't stand are astroturfers. Unfortunately, it is often hard to see the difference.
I have never seen or heard astroturfer any book or anywhere else. It has not been used in this forum as far as I can remember. It's also a very strange word which is don't understand. Mybee we have a few astroturfers here?

Hey Lumiaman. Are you an astroturfer?
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Wikiwide is offline Wikiwide
2012-11-03 , 08:06
Posts: 1,994 | Thanked: 3,342 times | Joined on Jun 2010 @ N900: Battery low. N950: torx 4 re-used once and fine; SIM port torn apart
#143
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
I have never seen or heard astroturfer any book or anywhere else. It has not been used in this forum as far as I can remember. It's also a very strange word which is don't understand. Mybee we have a few astroturfers here?

Hey Lumiaman. Are you an astroturfer?
Quick reply...
Look up the word in the dictionary before running the risk of offending anybody with an inaccurate usage of it.
Best wishes.
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2012-11-03 , 09:17
Posts: 7,074 | Thanked: 9,069 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#144
Originally Posted by Wikiwide View Post
Quick reply...
Look up the word in the dictionary before running the risk of offending anybody with an inaccurate usage of it.
Best wishes.
I did check it on wikipedia. And I'm not sure how you can transfer the description to a forum.

I'm not sure how a question like that could affend anyone, even if it's Lumiaman opinion on this particular question that matters. But i have seen and received worse statement in the past so I'm sure he can handle the question. If not im truly sorry.

What about this poll? I think the brain behind it should make an apology for attacking and single out us 4 over the rest of the users What's your take on that widewiki? I'm I allowed to create a poll with the most useless users that I don't like?

Now, back to this term. It seems like a political term, or a lobbyist. Don't even see how it could fit anyone here.

It would be as if I was paid by Jolla to constantly promote jolla on the forum.
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Last edited by Dave999; 2012-11-03 at 09:31.
 
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rm42 is offline rm42
2012-11-03 , 10:15
Posts: 963 | Thanked: 626 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Connecticut, USA
#145
Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
It would be as if I was paid by Jolla to constantly promote jolla on the forum.
Exactly, or if somebody was paid by Nokia/Microsoft to troll about Windows Phone on this forum, which was formed, as its name indicates, to talk about Linux phones.

Originally Posted by Dave999 View Post
Now, back to this term. It seems like a political term, or a lobbyist. Don't even see how it could fit anyone here.
After my interview with you I have come to conclude that you are not an astroturfer. In case you were wondering. But, you really don't see how the term could apply to any one here?

Astroturfer is the term the hacker community uses. Microsoft prefers would probably prefer the term ¨green marketing", or "technical evangelism".

It is really not a farfetched thought that astroturfers would be sent and paid to hang out here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...lumia-comments
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2012-11-03 , 10:34
Posts: 7,074 | Thanked: 9,069 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#146
So what's so bad about that. Internet is a free place, Tmo is a free place. What's does it matter where I job. I don't mix up people I meet with their job when I meet them, I don't mix up posts with where people make their money.

I wouldn't even mind if microsoft sent out army of employees to post as long as they follow the rules. I read each en every post from what I know, but also what I don't know and make something of it.

In the end, it's like commercials.

I think you might read too much in these words.
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Last edited by Dave999; 2012-11-03 at 10:41.
 
specc is offline specc
2012-11-04 , 07:33
Posts: 322 | Thanked: 218 times | Joined on Feb 2012
#147
Originally Posted by rm42 View Post
It is really not a farfetched thought that astroturfers would be sent and paid to hang out here.
In theory, perhaps not, but this is not theory. But IMO astroturfing is (for 99.99% of the time) just a part of a greater conspiracy "theory".

If you subscribe to the notion that Elop is evil, MS is evil and together they have a greater agenda of conspiring and killing everything not related to MS, then astroturfing on this forum may have a theoretical basis.

If, on the other hand, you subscribe to the notion that Elop and MS are working (hard) to create an ecosystem and devices that people like, because "no one" liked their previous iterations like WM, Symbian, Maemo and they tried but failed in the process of making then viable, then astroturfing is irrelevant. And that is the fact; Symbian, Maemo, MeeGo, WM are all dead.

I agree with Dave. It is not "us", it is "you" that need to be interviewed. You need to get your perception of the world in sync with reality, not the other way around.
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rm42 is offline rm42
2012-11-04 , 10:55
Posts: 963 | Thanked: 626 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Connecticut, USA
#148
So Dave, you ask, what's so bad about astroturfing? Well, I think that is an interesting question. It is obviously a question of morality, and as such it can be controversial. But, let me tell you why *I* feel is not a good thing.

To start, let me give you an example, You meet a girl at a party. She is attractive, intelligent, pleasant, and seems to be sincerely interested in you as well. As you get to know her, you start feeling attracted to her and want to spend more time with her. At the end of the party, you ask to see her again, but she, all of the sudden becomes a completely different person and brushes you off. What happened? Well, it turns out that she had been paid to spend time with you by the parents of another girl to keep you from spending time with their daughter.

The girl you spent your time with, though pleasant, was dishonest, hypocritical, and devious. She was not the person she pretended to be at all. And you, being the romantic, inexperienced fool that you are, fell for it.

I hope this little story illustrates the point that people that hide who or what they really are, are really trying to distort reality. It is thus a form of lying. And lying has always been regarded as a bad practice in all aspects of human relations. Do you understand why lying is bad or do you also want that explained?

So, lets get back to astroturfing, Astroturfers are by definition, people who pretend to be something they are not in order to funnel, at least some, potential clients towards a certain product or company. This practice is, just like the girl of the illustration, dishonest, hypocritical, and devious. So much so, that some people think it may (or should) be illegal.

http://www.text100-uk.com/2011/12/wh...e-its-illegal/
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Last edited by rm42; 2012-11-04 at 11:14.
 
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rm42 is offline rm42
2012-11-04 , 11:37
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#149
Originally Posted by specc View Post
In theory, perhaps not, but this is not theory. But IMO astroturfing is (for 99.99% of the time) just a part of a greater conspiracy "theory".
No, astroturfing is a very real marketing strategy. It is a dishonest, slimy, business strategy, with real world, documented, examples, including (but not limited to) Microsoft's.

Originally Posted by specc View Post
If you subscribe to the notion that Elop is evil, MS is evil and together they have a greater agenda of conspiring and killing everything not related to MS, then astroturfing on this forum may have a theoretical basis.
You are mistaken specc. The reality of the practice of astroturfing does not depend on the evilness of Elop of MS. Its reality is made evident by documented examples, some of which I have linked to above, but of which you can find many more by doing a little googling.

As to Elop, I do not know the kind of morality that Elop adheres to. My guess is that he is a more or less an average decent person trying to do his job. There are questions about where his true loyalties lie, but I doubt we will ever know.

As to Microsoft, being as it is, a mega corporation, it has as its main duty the aim of making profits. And, as most modern mega corporations it can often act as a psychopath. See the documentary called "The Corporation" if you do not believe me. You can watch it for free in Hulu.com.

Seeing that, it is not hard to understand why they resort to practices such as astroturfing, but it does not excuse them.

Originally Posted by specc View Post
If, on the other hand, you subscribe to the notion that Elop and MS are working (hard) to create an ecosystem and devices that people like, because "no one" liked their previous iterations like WM, Symbian, Maemo and they tried but failed in the process of making then viable, then astroturfing is irrelevant. And that is the fact; Symbian, Maemo, MeeGo, WM are all dead.
I do suscribe to that idea, but I do not consider astroturfing irrelevant or justifiable.

Originally Posted by specc View Post
I agree with Dave. It is not "us", it is "you" that need to be interviewed. You need to get your perception of the world in sync with reality, not the other way around.
Bye specc.
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2012-11-04 , 11:54
Posts: 7,074 | Thanked: 9,069 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#150
Originally Posted by rm42 View Post
So Dave, you ask, what's so bad about astroturfing? Well, I think that is an interesting question. It is obviously a question of morality, and as such it can be controversial. But, let me tell you why *I* feel is not a good thing.

To start, let me give you an example, You meet a girl at a party. She is attractive, intelligent, pleasant, and seems to be sincerely interested in you as well. As you get to know her, you start feeling attracted to her and want to spend more time with her. At the end of the party, you ask to see her again, but she, all of the sudden becomes a completely different person and brushes you off. What happened? Well, it turns out that she had been paid to spend time with you by the parents of another girl to keep you from spending time with their daughter.

The girl you spent your time with, though pleasant, was dishonest, hypocritical, and devious. She was not the person she pretended to be at all. And you, being the romantic, inexperienced fool that you are, fell for it.

I hope this little story illustrates the point that people that hide who or what they really are, are really trying to distort reality. It is thus a form of lying. And lying has always been regarded as a bad practice in all aspects of human relations. Do you understand why lying is bad or do you also want that explained?

So, lets get back to astroturfing, Astroturfers are by definition, people who pretend to be something they are not in order to funnel, at least some, potential clients towards a certain product or company. This practice is, just like the girl of the illustration, dishonest, hypocritical, and devious. So much so, that some people think it may (or should) be illegal.

http://www.text100-uk.com/2011/12/wh...e-its-illegal/
firstly, I haven't said its good, i haven't said its bad...its just so much you dont know about users/poeple so why care what the companies/poeple are doing and their agenda? You can/should only act on what you know. Ignore the rest!

HaHa, your example is so cute. Has that happend to you? I would just laugh if that had happend to me and feel sad for a few people involved in that story.

Lets have a look at this forum. What do you really know about the members, what would you know about me if i hadn't answered your questions, still you know very little of me and most of the rest of the users here.

Now, some poeple posting here have been working for Nokia. some have showed it offically and some not. poeple working for mer and I have no doubt that even poeple from jolla visiting or posting here for time to time. You don't know there agenda, are they Astroturfers? I say who cares.

Now that said, I have really no knowledge if anything here at TMO is true/false. Some poeple have done great things, devs, Community council, releationships with Nokia over the years. But in the end you never know there agenda and why should you? They might get Money, the might get devices, the mighe get clothes, the might get information or knowledge. All could be or none can be Astroturfers. Doesnt matter, doesent care since you dont know anything about the members anyway.

Lets get you an example of my own. Im' quite Young and have running a buissness about a year. When we are hiring people abroad we usally get CVs thats about 10 pages long. Now, what would you make of that, people has been working in about 3-4 years should not have a cv like that and they have longer titles then the alphbet. nowdays, I dont even read the CV's but instead using video Conferences and tasks to look for the best match. But in the end you can't know for sure the agenda, knowledge or other important stuff in that human's Life. You can't know what he/she does posts on forums. So Astroturfers is not good or bad for a Community. The only one that suffer is possably the Company that empoloyed that perticulre one. in the end we are all longer with our own agendas

Let's face it, does it matter to you if I'm Elop or Dave when you really don't know anything about me or my agenda?

We have different views of how to view the world, lets leave it at that.
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Last edited by Dave999; 2012-11-04 at 12:36.
 
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aye remember, badarox ?, elop==specc, i'm a pro too, it's specc, please vote, pro bono, thanks for aye!, trolliotr, troll_falcone

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