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	Copernicus	2015-12-01 , 15:44
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#2381

Originally Posted by MartinK

Yes, as long as the thing to fix is in the open source component, which often is not the case.

All of Mer / Nemo is an open source component, isn't it?

Also there is a serious overall lack of documentation in the Mer/Nemo/Sailfish land and random parts being closed does not really help with tracking down issues as you basically stumble on black boxes left and right.

What random parts of Mer / Nemo are closed? And why would Mer / Nemo (again, 100% open source) have a serious overall lack of documentation? Shouldn't being open-source have fixed that by now?

The other difference is that Sailfish OS is a quite complete and overall working system while Nemo is basically a bunch of middleware (the same Sailfish OS makes use off) but without most of the actual user facing bits (all system level GUI elements, core apps) + some minor stuff salvaged from the MeeGo era.

Yes! Being 100% open-source, Nemo is missing a lot of stuff that you need. Not being 100% open-source, Sailfish has that stuff. Man, having closed-source parts really hurt Sailfish in this case, didn't it...

Actually I think we would get significant amount of contributions as there would finally be something that is both in usable shape and fully open source.

Yes, absolutely! After spending millions of dollars, Jolla has built quite a nice UI on top of Mer. The problem is, those millions of dollars were not charity money. Maybe the investors will be willing to just throw away those millions of dollars and walk away, but I kind of doubt it.

It is much easier & much more motivating to fix & improve something you and others can actually use day-to-day rather than hacking on something for years without visible results.

Great. So, you're saying that open-source contributions can really only work at the tail end of a project, for (say) maintenance and small incremental work. Hurrah for open-source!

	Fellfrosch	2015-12-01 , 15:49
	Posts: 1,092 \| Thanked: 4,995 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ beautiful cave	#2382

Originally Posted by fk_lx

I don't see a reason to stick so much to Tizen's past - does that really matter to market or average customer which OS/company had more glorious history? Mobile phones from Nokia had a great history, but where are they now? Huh?

But if you want to dwell into the past, then let's go.
I see Samsung's strategy as more far-sighted than Nokia had. I remember the the times when Samsung phones were not widely known and popular. At that time you could pick up a Samsung phone with Symbian, Windows Mobile (and later Windows Phone), Android and their own Bada OS. Samsung was trying many different options at the same time instead of betting almost everything on one platform like Nokia did (Symbian, then Windows Phone). That way, when it was clear that Android is taking the lead, Samsung could quickly go that way, scale up while droping those platforms that didn't have a future (Symbian, Windows Phone) and focusing on new promising ones to become a significant player on the mobile devices market in the end. Even though they became mostly Android, they haven't stopped working on the possible future alternatives. Tizen came as an evolution of SLP (Samsung Linux Platform) with some parts borrowed from Meego. Start wasn't impressive, it was in fact mostly disappointing, but they are improving.

It's easy to state, that Samsung could have put more effort on Tizen, as they are a big company and Tizen could do better, but Nokia was also (still is) a big company, so why they did not put more effort and resources on Maemo and Meego? Why Nokia had such a big delays in releasing the first Meego device (before Feb 2011). And in the end was it a real, pure Meego or more-like Maemo 6 with Meego compatibility?

Finally, so what that Samsung is a giant? Is it Samsung's fault that they grew so much as a result of running a successful business. People often repeat that Nokia started from rubber and paper. Do you know how Samsung started? Company was founded in 1938 and it wasn't easy to run a company in the first years under Japanese occupation, then during Korean civil war in 50s. Even having such hard start they've prevailed, developed and became a global player and leader in some areas. If you dig deeper the history of Samsung is no less interesting than history that Nokia had.

That's the past, but it's really not important to mass customer. Average customer doesn't really care if product he uses was made by a big corporation or a small startup. What matters is the product and what it offers to him/her as a customer.

It's a fact that Tizen become 4th smartphone platform, an important smartwatch and smart TV platform. Tens of milions devices sold in total with Tizen (compare that to tiny ~30000-50000 Jolla phone sales). People by shouting at TMO that "Tizen is a piece of crap without future" won't cover the above facts.

Instead of constantly looking at the past and thinking "what if", look at the future and help to shape it.

Come on, is that all? No telling arguments?
Well let me tell you why I stick to the past: I'm no clairvoyant I can just stick to the past and there Tizen developed worse than Sailfish. Although Sansung should have enough Money to push Tizen. So why should that really change. Running Smartwatches and TV's with an OS is a huge difference to running Smartphones with you own OS. Or is there any WebOS phone anymore?

Samsung has the same problem as all the others but Apple.
They have not enough apps to be successful. Thats's the neckbreaker for all the other OSs. And I doubt Samsung has enough balls to push Tizen long enough. So the future for Tizen is eventually not so bright and it will end there where it stands at the moment: As an OS for TVs and Smartwatches. But that's speculation. So I stick to the past and there Samsung didn't show a massive love for Tizen.

(By the way. I think the only company which has enough stamina to get a bigger market share is Microsoft)

On the other hand we don't know how it ends with Sailfish. There are absolutely thinkable ways to succeed. I fear not with Jolla, but if a bigger company has a real interest in pushing their own OS on the Market maybe there will be a buyer. But that can also leed to another TV OS....

All speculation. So I stick to the past as long as you don't donate me a crystal ball.

	Copernicus	2015-12-01 , 15:50
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#2383

Originally Posted by NokiaFanatic

Because I just wouldn't have the skilzz..

Sooo... You're saying that you want Sailfish to become open source, in the expectation that folks will work on it for you for free?

	Ken-Young	2015-12-01 , 16:02
	Posts: 387 \| Thanked: 1,700 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Cambridge, MA, USA	#2384

Originally Posted by aegis

[...]
You need to be great at both the techie stuff AND the consumer or business oriented stuff.
[...]

This is where we disagree. I have an Android phone, and although I've installed software to provide X11 capability on it, it works poorly. The keyboards on Android devices are not optimized for modifying shell scripts etc. I'm suggesting making a device that is excellent for techie stuff, and stinks for consumer stuff. Stop trying to compete with Apple, Samsung and 10,000 smaller Android players. Jolla is a small company. Look for a niche that can support a small company, and forget trying to rule the consumer world.

MartinK	2015-12-01 , 16:03
Posts: 1,548 \| Thanked: 7,510 times \| Joined on Apr 2010 @ Czech Republic	#2385

Originally Posted by Copernicus

What random parts of Mer / Nemo are closed?

Sorry for not being clear - I was responding from the point of view of fixing things in Sailfish OS.

Of course, you can fix everything in Mer/Nemo - if your are brave enough to be running it somewhere separately from Sailfish Os given it's current state...

Originally Posted by Copernicus

And why would Mer / Nemo (again, 100% open source) have a serious overall lack of documentation? Shouldn't being open-source have fixed that by now?

If someone was using it appart from being a chassis for Sailfish OS, then yes. But thats again the problem - no one (AFAIK) is really using Mer/Nemo for anything other than Jolla for Sailfish OS. And Jolla developers understandably have (at least currently) other priorities than to write docs or don't really feel the immediate need to do so as they probably know the given systems in-and-out.

I'm sure that even Nemo Mobile was in a more usable shape as an open mobile distro the docs situation (among other things) would be better off.

Originally Posted by Copernicus

Yes, absolutely! After spending millions of dollars, Jolla has built quite a nice UI on top of Mer. The problem is, those millions of dollars were not charity money. Maybe the investors will be willing to just throw away those millions of dollars and walk away, but I kind of doubt it.

It would not be the first time such thing happened.

(actually reading the history of Blender, it seems to be strangle similar to the Jolla/Sailfish one so far)

Originally Posted by Copernicus

Great. So, you're saying that open-source contributions can really only work at the tail end of a project, for (say) maintenance and small incremental work. Hurrah for open-source!

No, I'm saying that people are much more likely to contribute to something they can actually use themselves. That's all.

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MartinK	2015-12-01 , 16:06
Posts: 1,548 \| Thanked: 7,510 times \| Joined on Apr 2010 @ Czech Republic	#2386

Originally Posted by Ken-Young

...

So basically the Pyra ?

	Ken-Young	2015-12-01 , 16:12
	Posts: 387 \| Thanked: 1,700 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Cambridge, MA, USA	#2387

Originally Posted by MartinK

So basically the Pyra ?

Not quite. The Pyra is at least partially optimized for games. It has game controls, etc. I think it will be hard for a game-oriented linux device to get traction, because you will be in competition with games on iPhones and Android machines. Those phones are going to have much better games. I suspect that the number of people who are willing to buy a Pyra will not be large enough to support even a samll company like Jolla. But I could of course be wrong, and I'll buy a Pyra when they go on sale. I agree with you that a Pyra is close to what I'm suggesting.

	Ken-Young	2015-12-01 , 16:14
	Posts: 387 \| Thanked: 1,700 times \| Joined on Feb 2010 @ Cambridge, MA, USA	#2388

Originally Posted by NokiaFanatic

As I've stated before, I'd be happy to pay a yearly subscription charge for an image that was certified on a mainstream device like a Nexus 5.

I certainly agree that Sailfish would need experts who are getting paid - whether there are enough people out there willing to stump up the cash - I don't know.

I guess solu is trying this subscription model, so we'll see how it works.

switch-hitter	2015-12-01 , 17:56
Posts: 207 \| Thanked: 552 times \| Joined on Jul 2011	#2389

Originally Posted by Fellfrosch

Samsung has the same problem as all the others but Apple. They have not enough apps to be successful. Thats's the neckbreaker for all the other OSs.

Research done in the UK showed the majority of adult smartphone users had never installed an app. Beyond that there's many users who only care about a few key apps (SatNav, WhatsApp, FaceBook,..). I find the idea Tizen needs the ocean of washed up garbage that pollutes Google Play and Apples' app store in order to be successful highly dubious. A gazillion worthless apps that never get downloaded and never get updated... who gives a stuff?

Originally Posted by Fellfrosch

And I doubt Samsung has enough balls to push Tizen long enough.

Samsung doesn't have the cojones? I understand they're building huge manufacturing plants in Vietnam where the cost of labour is a fraction of that in China (and the Vietnamese government has given them a cosy tax deal too) so the Chinese manufacturers can't simply rely on undercutting in the future. That's costing Samsung billions right now but they're gambling on it paying off longer term. I think that takes balls/ovaries (don't want to appear sexist

), don't you?

So what's the cost of Tizen in the scheme of things? And by all accounts Tizen is much better than Android on budget devices which is where most of the untapped market is now.

aegis	2015-12-01 , 18:11
Posts: 702 \| Thanked: 2,059 times \| Joined on Feb 2011 @ UK	#2390

Originally Posted by Ken-Young

This is where we disagree. I have an Android phone, and although I've installed software to provide X11 capability on it, it works poorly. The keyboards on Android devices are not optimized for modifying shell scripts etc.

Have you tried "Hacker's Keyboard" ?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...ion.pckeyboard

I use that. It's wonderful.

I also have a Freedom iConnex bluetooth keyboard.

I can't help you on X11 though. Not had a need to touch that in about 20 years. I've used it on desktop Linux of course but that's more by accident rather than design. Used it on my Mac too but that's more like self flagellation than an accident or design.

Originally Posted by Ken-Young

I'm suggesting making a device that is excellent for techie stuff, and stinks for consumer stuff. Stop trying to compete with Apple, Samsung and 10,000 smaller Android players. Jolla is a small company. Look for a niche that can support a small company, and forget trying to rule the consumer world.

I don't know a techie that still doesn't need a calendar or contacts database that works. Neither of them do currently on Sailfish unless bizarrely you use Google or Exchange. Most of the open source solutions techies desire are buggy or only work in very simplified circumstances.

But that's an aside. Even if they just concentrate on 'techie stuff' they've IME got some way to go to catch up even on the day to day tasks a sysadmin gets asked to do like reset someones password, switch a server off and on, copy a cert, edit DNS. These things I do most days and it was immensely painful if not impossible to do on Sailfish and ended up just sticking it in hotspot mode and grabbing an Android tablet or laptop. At that point, you may as well just carry an old Nokia.