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andraeseus1 |
2010-06-25
, 16:50
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Posts: 446 |
Thanked: 79 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
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#21
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dont they have anti virus type struff for phones? that way you can remove harmfull software your self with out the manufactuer doing it. i kind alike the idea of having control over my phone. not ready to give that up
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2010-06-25
, 16:59
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Posts: 307 |
Thanked: 157 times |
Joined on Jul 2009
@ Illinois, USA
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#22
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I have an alternate viewpoint on all this.
You bought the program through their App stores, so absolutely they can and should have a kill switch for those programs. The real issue is forcing users to only use that app store. If users have a choice between sideloading content and a creator-owned DRM'd App store, then the owners of the App store and kill switch as many apps as they want. Users will still have the choice to go straight to the developers for DRM free apps to sideload.
There's also a difference in context between DRM'd programs and DRM'd media. Those programs have a fairly small footprint of machines they can run on. Especially in the case of phones, DRM'd apps make perfect sense.
DRM'd media on the other hand, doesn't. There are literally countless devices that can use these and that users should be able to use. Unless the DRM transparently allows that user to do that, its bad DRM.
Valve's Steam is an example of DRM done right. Not perfect, but amazingly executed nonetheless. It satisfies one of the principle complaints of DRM: that you can't take it with you. Not only will Steam allow you to install the same program on an unlimited number of computers, but its also cross-platform now.
EDIT:
Not to say that I am a huge fan of DRM. I'm just saying that DRM doesn't always have to be this huge terrible monster. The half-baked solutions are terrible and the men who dreamt them up should rightly be flayed alive. A DRM that is transparent and is tied to YOU not a machine though, isn't something that should be demonized.
You bought the program through their App stores, so absolutely they can and should have a kill switch for those programs. The real issue is forcing users to only use that app store. If users have a choice between sideloading content and a creator-owned DRM'd App store, then the owners of the App store and kill switch as many apps as they want. Users will still have the choice to go straight to the developers for DRM free apps to sideload.
There's also a difference in context between DRM'd programs and DRM'd media. Those programs have a fairly small footprint of machines they can run on. Especially in the case of phones, DRM'd apps make perfect sense.
DRM'd media on the other hand, doesn't. There are literally countless devices that can use these and that users should be able to use. Unless the DRM transparently allows that user to do that, its bad DRM.
Valve's Steam is an example of DRM done right. Not perfect, but amazingly executed nonetheless. It satisfies one of the principle complaints of DRM: that you can't take it with you. Not only will Steam allow you to install the same program on an unlimited number of computers, but its also cross-platform now.
EDIT:
Not to say that I am a huge fan of DRM. I'm just saying that DRM doesn't always have to be this huge terrible monster. The half-baked solutions are terrible and the men who dreamt them up should rightly be flayed alive. A DRM that is transparent and is tied to YOU not a machine though, isn't something that should be demonized.
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2010-06-25
, 17:08
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Posts: 267 |
Thanked: 408 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Austria
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#23
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Originally Posted by ysss
(Yosh, we're back to disagreeing - feels much more natural, doesn't it?
@wmarone: and understandably so, if they're laying out the same kind of investments for big production content as conventional media companies. We're talking about contents with significant production quality that are generally quite desirable and easy to put a price tag on right?
I'm not defending any particular corners because imho each have good/acceptable explanation for their stance, but unless someone comes up with a better drm then current drm then *shrugs*.
)Like LaughingMan said, there's two big problems with DRM:
1) It won't stop people from pirating, since most pirating groups tend to have workarounds for every new copy protection technology days before it's even released.
2) That means that the ONLY people DRM is a hindrance for are legit customers, who then revert to pirated goods because that way at least they will have a fully functional product instead of a DRM crippled one.
So is the current DRM really better than no DRM? I dare say no.
Know what's actually the best way to go for any company? Getting rid of copy protection altogether. Because those customers who don't have the honour to actually pay for something won't do so, anyway. And those who do at least would no longer be literally FORCED into pirating thanks to restricting DRMs.
It really does work without any copy protection whatsoever. There's this company I'm spending a fortune on each month who sell digital products online. Of course there are lots of torrents for their products around, but they still earn a fortune thanks to the honourable customers by far outweighing the loosers that don't want to pay for a top notch product.
But those wouldn't pay, anyway, while we on the other hand love the freedom to install products we paid good money for on whatever machine we're currently working on.
Sadly, very few companies seem to realise that all it takes to sell a product is a bit of trust towards their valid customers (and at the same time trust into their own products - that they are good enough for people to feel they are worth paying for).
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2010-06-25
, 17:11
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Posts: 4,384 |
Thanked: 5,524 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#24
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I think the DRM adoption is pretty much non issue to the general crowd nowaday...
Let's use a sample case... DRM in Apple's AppStore. How it seems to appeal to the general mass and can address their concern (if any) about purchasing contents online. In all of the steps, the theme is 'simple & convenient and pretty much trouble-free':
1. Acquisition: You can buy content from any of your portable devices and/or your desktop/notebook with your account.
2. Backup: The purchase is automatically synced to all of your compatible devices and also on your host computer for backup.
3. Usage: There's no serial number or repetitive online activation scheme to bother with.
4. Update: There's an auto-update system that will notify of any new version of owned/installed apps that can be accessed from any of the devices/computers.
5. Long term concerns: Apple is perceived to be big enough to sustain the current licensing scheme for the foreseeable future. The killswitch may be there, but there's no historic record of that being misused while a user is within the ToS, so...
I don't see how a customer suffer (in the popular, non-OSS encumbered term
) really.
ps: I can (and have) even shared some apps from my iPhone to people I trust (family and friends) by downloading some of my apps to their device with my account (of course I retain the password and it's not memorized by the other devices).
pps: yes, there are a boatload of other issues and limitations on apple's ecosystem, but as far as DRM-ed apps are concerned; I think they've nailed it.
ppps: this is specifically about software DRM (re: killswitch topic) tied to specific platform. I have different views about DRMs on media that can 'flow' among different platforms (pc, bigscreen tv, pmp, etc).
Last edited by ysss; 2010-06-25 at 17:13.
Let's use a sample case... DRM in Apple's AppStore. How it seems to appeal to the general mass and can address their concern (if any) about purchasing contents online. In all of the steps, the theme is 'simple & convenient and pretty much trouble-free':
1. Acquisition: You can buy content from any of your portable devices and/or your desktop/notebook with your account.
2. Backup: The purchase is automatically synced to all of your compatible devices and also on your host computer for backup.
3. Usage: There's no serial number or repetitive online activation scheme to bother with.
4. Update: There's an auto-update system that will notify of any new version of owned/installed apps that can be accessed from any of the devices/computers.
5. Long term concerns: Apple is perceived to be big enough to sustain the current licensing scheme for the foreseeable future. The killswitch may be there, but there's no historic record of that being misused while a user is within the ToS, so...
I don't see how a customer suffer (in the popular, non-OSS encumbered term
) really.ps: I can (and have) even shared some apps from my iPhone to people I trust (family and friends) by downloading some of my apps to their device with my account (of course I retain the password and it's not memorized by the other devices).
pps: yes, there are a boatload of other issues and limitations on apple's ecosystem, but as far as DRM-ed apps are concerned; I think they've nailed it.
ppps: this is specifically about software DRM (re: killswitch topic) tied to specific platform. I have different views about DRMs on media that can 'flow' among different platforms (pc, bigscreen tv, pmp, etc).
__________________
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Class .. : Power User
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Last edited by ysss; 2010-06-25 at 17:13.
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2010-06-25
, 17:14
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Posts: 362 |
Thanked: 143 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
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#25
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slight OT...A number of points:
1) lower the profit margin for professional private. If you price your stuff at $500 where as the real cost of producing it is $2. Those people with sufficient means will sure want to get in(ie. pirates) your stuff to have a cut at the margin.
2) produce/make stuff that are worthwhile; so that people really see the value with the 'real' stuff.
Implementation of DRM does not address the two points above, so the chance of it being successful to at the official intended purpose(stopping the the private) is next to nil. However, for the rest of the people(ie. people without means to overcover DRM), you will be forever paying to the content producer at each and every refresh of content delivery-medium
Last edited by cheve; 2010-06-25 at 17:16.
1) lower the profit margin for professional private. If you price your stuff at $500 where as the real cost of producing it is $2. Those people with sufficient means will sure want to get in(ie. pirates) your stuff to have a cut at the margin.
2) produce/make stuff that are worthwhile; so that people really see the value with the 'real' stuff.
Implementation of DRM does not address the two points above, so the chance of it being successful to at the official intended purpose(stopping the the private) is next to nil. However, for the rest of the people(ie. people without means to overcover DRM), you will be forever paying to the content producer at each and every refresh of content delivery-medium
Last edited by cheve; 2010-06-25 at 17:16.
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2010-06-25
, 17:21
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Posts: 4,556 |
Thanked: 1,624 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#26
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Originally Posted by ysss
True, DRM isn't as much a problem as companies like Steam and Apple are incorporating it in a way that doesn't inconvience the user (much). But DRM on the Meego system might. And that's the problem. I don't want to have to choose between say running a commercial app and messing around with my system to make it do things that a company may not approve of.
I think the DRM adoption is pretty much non issue to the general crowd nowaday...
Let's use a sample case... DRM in Apple's AppStore. How it seems to appeal to the general mass and can address their concern (if any) about purchasing contents online. In all of the steps, the theme is 'simple & convenient and pretty much trouble-free':
1. Acquisition: You can buy content from any of your portable devices and/or your desktop/notebook with your account.
2. Backup: The purchase is automatically synced to all of your compatible devices and also on your host computer for backup.
3. Usage: There's no serial number or repetitive online activation scheme to bother with.
4. Update: There's an auto-update system that will notify of any new version of owned/installed apps that can be accessed from any of the devices/computers.
5. Long term concerns: Apple is perceived to be big enough to sustain the current licensing scheme for the foreseeable future. The killswitch may be there, but there's no historic record of that being misused while a user is within the ToS, so...
I don't see how a customer suffer (in the popular, non-OSS encumbered term
ps: I can (and have) even shared some apps from my iPhone to people I trust (family and friends) by downloading some of my apps to their device with my account (of course I retain the password and it's not memorized by the other devices).
pps: yes, there are a boatload of other issues and limitations on apple's ecosystem, but as far as DRM-ed apps are concerned; I think they've nailed it.
ppps: this is specifically about software DRM (re: killswitch topic) tied to specific platform. I have different views about DRMs on media that can 'flow' among different platforms (pc, bigscreen tv, pmp, etc).
Granted that's not something most normal users need to do.
__________________
Originally Posted by ysss
They're maemo and MeeGo...
"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...
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2010-06-25
, 17:21
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Posts: 4,384 |
Thanked: 5,524 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#27
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@nathraiben: fair points
but please address how DRM is a major hindrance in my example above?
I also think the point about "people who will pirate will pirate and those who will pay will pay" is bull. Just look at the the great work by tomaszd:
241,000 downloads and only 21 EUR donated. It was not even 10 EUR before this point was specifically mentioned in another thread a few days ago.
src: http://forums.internettablettalk.com...475#post716475
(btw, for anyone's who've used tomaszd extra decoder package please consider donating from the link in his sig!)
This is already a painful statistic from a software package that we all can see the benefit and value of, coming from one of our own in the community. Think of what would happen when the producer is replaced by a giant heartless corporation... (which also need the money to continue to produce the goodies we like).
@cheve: free market, you can't regulate those (price and content). the market (demand) will weed out those too expensive and those with quality too low to generate demand (like angryman on ovi heh).
Last edited by ysss; 2010-06-25 at 18:10.
but please address how DRM is a major hindrance in my example above?
I also think the point about "people who will pirate will pirate and those who will pay will pay" is bull. Just look at the the great work by tomaszd:
241,000 downloads and only 21 EUR donated. It was not even 10 EUR before this point was specifically mentioned in another thread a few days ago.
src: http://forums.internettablettalk.com...475#post716475
(btw, for anyone's who've used tomaszd extra decoder package please consider donating from the link in his sig!)
This is already a painful statistic from a software package that we all can see the benefit and value of, coming from one of our own in the community. Think of what would happen when the producer is replaced by a giant heartless corporation... (which also need the money to continue to produce the goodies we like).
@cheve: free market, you can't regulate those (price and content). the market (demand) will weed out those too expensive and those with quality too low to generate demand (like angryman on ovi heh).
__________________
Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
Follow the MeeGo Coding Competition!
Last edited by ysss; 2010-06-25 at 18:10.
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2010-06-25
, 17:23
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Posts: 267 |
Thanked: 408 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Austria
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#28
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Originally Posted by ysss
Did you know that a good share of people had problems with the iPhone firmware update last year? After updating, my phone was completely wiped (it was even set to English - not that care much
Let's use a sample case... DRM in Apple's AppStore. How it seems to appeal to the general mass and can address their concern (if any) about purchasing contents online. In all of the steps, the theme is 'simple & convenient and pretty much trouble-free':
). Well, no problem, I could still sync it with iTunes, right?Wrong. I got a message that this was no longer an iPhone registert to this iTunes installation, so in order to protect their poor apps from pirating, without even asking for my permission iTunes got reset, too.
I didn't care much, since I never felt daring enough to give Apple access to my credit card, so all I lost were free applications - but I know at least three other people who had the same problem, and THEY lost commercial apps this way...
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2010-06-25
, 17:23
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Posts: 2,427 |
Thanked: 2,986 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#29
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Originally Posted by ysss
There is, it's called quality. And if you don't control the hardware (PS3, XBox, anything Apple, gaming servers, ..., etc), you can't control the software. Or you can purchase politicians and/or law enforcement.
If there is a better 'defense' than DRM that the content producer/middlemen can accept, then we can all move on from this mess.
It's not possible to simultaneously satisfy the most powerful in both camps (coders and creators). This is the entertainment industry's Israel. It's time for the creator mafia to get more creative, otherwise the inevitable will come sooner rather than later:
"Anything I see, hear or feel, I own." We can call it Tommy!
Then maybe we'll see a quality increase, and a quantity slow down. I computationally analyze music as a hobby; the next Don Kirshner might not be human. The movie industry will have to compete with open source gaming engines for market share.
"Strong Arm or Die" will lose. "Innovate or Die" is all that creators will be left with. But no one will go quietly into the night; there will be many corpses on both sides.
I probably spend as much a month on content as anyone in here, but this is the future as I see it.
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2010-06-25
, 17:24
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Posts: 600 |
Thanked: 742 times |
Joined on Sep 2008
@ England
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#30
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Originally Posted by ysss
Whoa there!
5. Long term concerns: Apple is perceived to be big enough to sustain the current licensing scheme for the foreseeable future. The killswitch may be there, but there's no historic record of that being misused while a user is within the ToS, so...
Google was also perceived to be big enough to sustain their licensing schemes for the foreseeable future, but people who purchased videos from Google Video under the "download to own" scheme had their DRM turned off and their access terminated.
Sure, the lusers eventually received a refund, but they still lost access to the DRM-videos they had paid to "own".
"Google Ends Paid Google Videos"
http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-08-11-n74.html
In the end, Google "backed down" and reluctantly allowed people to keep playing the videos they'd purchased for an extra six months.
Here's Google's belated apology:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/...-feedback.html
Yahoo and Microsoft have done similar things to loyal customers. Maybe Apple hasn't done it yet, but it's not because they're "big enough".
Regards,
Roger
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