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sevla is offline sevla
2010-04-20 , 16:28
Posts: 244 | Thanked: 155 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ DC
#81
Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
Bling isn't everything. Me being able to change the theme is not worth anything if the system isn't stable on account of poor quality applications. Sad but true.

And when it comes to C being outdated, I'm sure them 100+ lines of C code commited into the main Linux kernel source tree every day is just 1995 all over again. Not to mention all the applications that form the base of everything you do on your N900 and on almost all other Linux based systems.

Ease of use is progress, bling is not.
I never said bling = progress. Improved user experience however does = progress. Object Oriented design = progress.

C has it's place in low level code but not in developing front end applications..

just my .02 cents.

fwiw I am a software developer at IBM and not some random wannabe techie blogger, trendy coffee shop goer.
 

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Venemo is offline Venemo
2010-04-20 , 16:30
Posts: 1,296 | Thanked: 1,773 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Budapest, Hungary
#82
Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
Did you follow the link given by OP? The one about C++ and its properties and the problems that come with it?
Yes, I did.
Basically, it's moaning about C++.

There are some valid statements, but half of the statements translate to "C++ is difficult, because XY", which is a pretty subjective matter.
Some of them complain about language features which the author doesn't know well.
I think it is ridiculous that he even complains about manual memory management... C++ is not managed code, period.

Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
There are problems connected to using C++ as the main language for something as central as the preferred toolkit. As simple things as using a debugger can turn incredibly ugly even with moderately sized projects on account of C++, by design, being hard to interpret in object form. That in turn results in harder to debug programs which leads to lower quality code and that's a pain no matter how you look at it.
True. I completely agree.
However, I still prefer C++ to C because of OOP.

And I still think that C# is vastly superior.

Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
C++ being taught in schools is not an argument for it being the best choice on a device like the N900.
No, it isn't. But it helps if you're stuck with it.
And it is really possible to live with its problems.

For me, the argument for Qt being my choice is that there is no other Maemo developer toolkit which has an IDE that runs on Windows.

Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
With that said, Qt might very well be the best choice when it comes to application development but it is, in my opinion, a pity it's implemented in C++.
Sure.
But what other languge do you wish for?
C lacks OOP, so it is out of the question. For C#, there is already a big class library which is better than Qt. (The .NET Framework on Windows, and Mono on Linux.)
And despite its shortcomings, C++ is still a popular language for many people.


By the way, the moment Mono becomes a valid alternative on Maemo, I'll stick to that.
It uses a GTK-based UI (called GTK#), and it is programmable with my favourite language (C#), and with the best IDE on the market (Visual Studio).

In fact, I fail to understand why Nokia didn't acquire Mono (or at least incorporate into the platform) instead of Qt.
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Last edited by Venemo; 2010-04-20 at 16:34.
 
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Khertan is offline Khertan
2010-04-20 , 16:32
Posts: 1,012 | Thanked: 817 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ France
#83
Did you really think that gtk will got the same support as today ... no ...
And no ... coding in Qt isn't easier ... it s just a matter of preferences.

And i hate qt.

"In fact, I fail to understand why Nokia didn't acquire (or at least incorporate into the platform) "
Haha ... you really make me laught.
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w00t is offline w00t
2010-04-20 , 16:34
Posts: 1,055 | Thanked: 4,107 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Norway
#84
Originally Posted by mikhas View Post
Use them. I talked about feel. Not look. There are subtle surprises everywhere.
Actually, after looking into this further, Qt directly *instantiates* the Gtk filechooser dialog when running under Gnome. It doesn't reimplement it at all.

Take a look at QGtkStylePrivate:penFilename(). QGtkStylePrivate::gtk_file_chooser_dialog_new is retrieved from Gtk itself (see QGtkStylePrivate::resolveGtk())

So I think this might have been a case of severe misinformation on your part.
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nicola.mfb is offline nicola.mfb
2010-04-20 , 16:36
Posts: 107 | Thanked: 74 times | Joined on Jan 2010
#85
Originally Posted by Khertan View Post
And i hate qt.
Hi Khertan,
may you motivate?
 
slender is offline slender
2010-04-20 , 16:37
Posts: 2,829 | Thanked: 1,459 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Finland
#86
Originally Posted by Joorin View Post
Bling isn't everything. Me being able to change the theme is not worth anything if the system isn't stable on account of poor quality applications. Sad but true.

And when it comes to C being outdated, I'm sure them 100+ lines of C code commited into the main Linux kernel source tree every day is just 1995 all over again. Not to mention all the applications that form the base of everything you do on your N900 and on almost all other Linux based systems.

Ease of use is progress, bling is not.
Bling isn't everything but if the big part of customers are used to bling and except for as absurd things as good looking icons on this wonderful screen (Best way to advertise you device is to make UI shine, when you take it on your hands it just needs to outperform others on this area also) then itīs the way to go. Nokia has done it's job on making engine work so let's hope that Meego will bling, because if it won't then i wouldn't be surprised if masses do not get excited about it and in worst case Nokia starts slowly pull plug because after all itīs all about ROI.

I do not have any statistics but in my narrow point of view I see correlation on nice looking GUI and easiness of usage of IT (Easiness of usage might also be to someone Bash but now Iīm talking about GUI). I think that Itīs quite probable than when someone really thinks how/what to draw UI he has to use quite a much time just thinking where to put and what to put so devoting to easiness of usage might come along with bling naturally. Just wild guess and "feeling"

I have had my conversations with some FOSS people who like to tell that tinkering engine is the most important thing to do because if it crashes you do not have anything. Sad part is that sometimes i feel like they would like to keep it that way inf.. There is always something to tinker and make better. GUI might be just magnet for people who do not know how to use it "properly".

But yes you are correct. JUST bling isn't what makes it easier to use, but it might mean more customers and more money to pockets of Nokia and that again means more support to also people who do not care at all about bling.
Last edited by slender; 2010-04-20 at 16:47.
 
sevla is offline sevla
2010-04-20 , 16:47
Posts: 244 | Thanked: 155 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ DC
#87
Furthermore, who is going to take the OP's link seriously with statements like this;

Code:
std::vector<My******edTemplate<T> >
I mean give me a break....

Yes templates are/can be complicated. But guess what, they are optional and don't have to be used in MOST situations. Seems like he or she is complaining about something that they do not understand or do not want to take the time to understand.

90% of what was said in that link boiled down to "preferences" and had very little to do with actual fact. The arguments were not that convincing and I even think one of his issues (the only one that had any real merit) can be solved by using pre-compiled headers..
Last edited by sevla; 2010-04-20 at 17:07.
 

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johnel is offline johnel
2010-04-20 , 16:50
Posts: 999 | Thanked: 1,117 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ earth?
#88
Summary:

If you don't like QT use GTK.
If you dont' GTK then use QT.

Both are supported under Nokia.

What's the problem?

Please no more holy war.

All we need now is the spanish inquisition and I do not want to be tortured by a chair and comfy cushions.
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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-04-20 , 16:51
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#89
Aha, a holy war!

Btw, which side do those who like C++ but dislike Qt fall on?
 
sophocha is offline sophocha
2010-04-20 , 16:56
Posts: 559 | Thanked: 166 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Cyprus
#90
This thread sounds like Chinese to me!
 
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