Active Topics
-
Firefox with Leste (5)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by teroyk - 20 hrs, 15 mins ago -
Handbook (2)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by teroyk - 1 day, 19 hrs ago - more...
|
2009-11-03
, 00:36
|
|
Posts: 20 |
Thanked: 9 times |
Joined on May 2006
@ Europe
|
#12
|
Originally Posted by fanoush
Not very nice. Next time I won't be testing this hard...
Most probably. You are not the first one. Others already got same answer, no image until public release :-(
 |
|
2009-11-03
, 01:18
|
|
Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
|
#13
|
Originally Posted by guaka
There are several issues involved that make this not as simple as "just put the firmware image up somewhere".
Not very nice. Next time I won't be testing this hard...
First, 3rd party licensed software (Flash, etc.). The licensing agreements Nokia has with Adobe and other companies and the certification processes this software may need to go through may not allow them to distribute firmware before sales start except under certain terms.
Second, GPL software. Distributing GPL software requires them to make up-to-date sources available to people receiving the software. This is a complicated process.
Third, 1st party proprietary software. Nokia likely doesn't want pre-release versions of its own closed-source software floating about on the internet, both because it can impact perceived brand quality and because pre-release binaries may contain code which will not be in the public release.
All of these things add up to make releasing pre-release firmwares an expensive or possibly impossible proposition. Especially when you consider that all this effort will be for maybe a few dozen people at most. Sales start still seems to be on schedule for this month, waiting a few weeks may be unpleasant but it wont kill you.
Otherwise, you're free to return your device at any time for a full refund.
__________________
Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
| The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to GeneralAntilles For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2009-11-03
, 08:09
|
|
Posts: 2,152 |
Thanked: 1,490 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Czech Republic
|
#14
|
Nokia already distributed GPL software directly on the device to random 300 people. Giving to same people same firmware image they already received with the device does not change anything. Last time I checked, GPL doesn't care about distribution method (file vs already present in device) or something being called prerelease, beta etc. So technically, GPL is already violated.
The other reasons you mentioned make more sense but still, giving people the same data they already got shouldn't change anything even for other software or possible leaks. And I doubt Nokia seeked extra permission from all 3rd parties before giving devices on summit. In such case we probably wouldn't get anything :-)
IMO the only real reason is lack of resources to make it available right now. Which in itself is good enough reason. As you said there is still an option to return the device :-)
Last edited by fanoush; 2009-11-03 at 09:09.
The other reasons you mentioned make more sense but still, giving people the same data they already got shouldn't change anything even for other software or possible leaks. And I doubt Nokia seeked extra permission from all 3rd parties before giving devices on summit. In such case we probably wouldn't get anything :-)
IMO the only real reason is lack of resources to make it available right now. Which in itself is good enough reason. As you said there is still an option to return the device :-)
__________________
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
Last edited by fanoush; 2009-11-03 at 09:09.
| The Following User Says Thank You to fanoush For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2009-11-03
, 08:49
|
|
Posts: 20 |
Thanked: 9 times |
Joined on May 2006
@ Europe
|
#15
|
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
I and the people who received the devices already had to sign a bunch of legalese to (presumably) cover Nokia's *** for points 1. and 3. And it's probably impossible to cover for point 2 if you're giving out devices to non-employees under Dutch, Finnish or EU law.
All of these things add up to make releasing pre-release firmwares an expensive or possibly impossible proposition.
If it's so hard to make a release... the images do exist and they don't have to be *released* publicly. It's just a matter of sending an email with an attachment to a bunch of people.
|
|
2009-11-03
, 09:21
|
|
Posts: 2,152 |
Thanked: 1,490 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Czech Republic
|
#16
|
Originally Posted by guaka
The attachment would be quite big, can you accept hundreds of megabytes via mail? That means they need to send you a link to public server, then somehow protect it, ..... All this takes some effort which is needed elsewhere.
the images do exist and they don't have to be *released* publicly. It's just a matter of sending an email with an attachment to a bunch of people.
So basically they lend you a device but can't invest any other effort now. Take it or return it. There is already a waiting list for returned devices :-)
__________________
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
| The Following User Says Thank You to fanoush For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2009-11-03
, 09:25
|
|
Posts: 2,802 |
Thanked: 4,491 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
|
#17
|
Originally Posted by fanoush
The GPL doesn't say that if you distribute binaries you also have to distribute binary images of the entire OS.
Nokia already distributed GPL software directly on the device to random 300 people. Giving to same people same firmware image they already received with the device does not change anything. Last time I checked, GPL doesn't care about distribution method (file vs already present in device) or something being called prerelease, beta or anything. So technically, GPL is already violated.
A different issue is when some source packages in the repository are temporarily out of sync with the on-device binaries, but personally I'm prepared to cut them some slack :-)
|
|
2009-11-03
, 09:34
|
|
Posts: 2,152 |
Thanked: 1,490 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Czech Republic
|
#18
|
Yes, you're right. This was a response for using GPL-ed software as an excuse why they cannot publish firmware image:
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
I should have said
Second, GPL software. Distributing GPL software requires them to make up-to-date sources available to people receiving the software. This is a complicated process.
So technically, if there is any problem with shipping GPLed software in the image, GPL is already violated by giving devices away.
__________________
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
| The Following User Says Thank You to fanoush For This Useful Post: | ||
 |
|
2009-11-04
, 18:51
|
|
Posts: 148 |
Thanked: 484 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
|
#19
|
Originally Posted by fanoush
To be exact the devices are out on loan agreements. They are not given or distributed, they are loaned. There is a clear difference there.
Nokia already distributed GPL software directly on the device to random 300 people. Giving to same people same firmware image they already received with the device does not change anything. Last time I checked, GPL doesn't care about distribution method (file vs already present in device) or something being called prerelease, beta etc. So technically, GPL is already violated.
The other reasons you mentioned make more sense but still, giving people the same data they already got shouldn't change anything even for other software or possible leaks. And I doubt Nokia seeked extra permission from all 3rd parties before giving devices on summit. In such case we probably wouldn't get anything :-)
IMO the only real reason is lack of resources to make it available right now. Which in itself is good enough reason. As you said there is still an option to return the device :-)
Nokia respects the GPL and other open source licenses.
| The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to tekojo For This Useful Post: | ||
|
|
2009-11-04
, 20:21
|
|
Posts: 2,152 |
Thanked: 1,490 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Czech Republic
|
#20
|
See my post above yours for correction/explanation.
I was talking about distributing GPLed software. I don't think that device being given, sold or loaned matters here. In this context the device is just a medium for distributing software. Otherwise it would be quite easy to circumvent GPL by lending CDs with software instead of selling or giving them. Same for linux based hardware (routers, media players/recorders, phones,...) Loaning them to customers would hardly make any difference regarding GPL compliance.
Well, except that maybe sometimes it can take more than year of respectful waiting We still don't have sources for modified uclibc used in N8x0 initfs :-)
But anyway, we are both missing the point here. The core point was that there should be no legal problem with supplying people with loaned devices with same firmware they already received with the device. For sure there are other reasons (like lack of time/resources) which makes the decision understandable so it really doesn't matter much.
Originally Posted by tekojo
Yes, to be exact the 'before giving devices' should be 'before loaning devices'. Any other correction?
To be exact the devices are out on loan agreements. They are not given or distributed, they are loaned. There is a clear difference there.
I was talking about distributing GPLed software. I don't think that device being given, sold or loaned matters here. In this context the device is just a medium for distributing software. Otherwise it would be quite easy to circumvent GPL by lending CDs with software instead of selling or giving them. Same for linux based hardware (routers, media players/recorders, phones,...) Loaning them to customers would hardly make any difference regarding GPL compliance.
Originally Posted by tekojo
Agreed. Yes. Sure. Definitely. :-)
Nokia respects the GPL and other open source licenses.
Well, except that maybe sometimes it can take more than year of respectful waiting
We still don't have sources for modified uclibc used in N8x0 initfs :-)But anyway, we are both missing the point here. The core point was that there should be no legal problem with supplying people with loaned devices with same firmware they already received with the device. For sure there are other reasons (like lack of time/resources) which makes the decision understandable so it really doesn't matter much.
__________________
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.
| The Following User Says Thank You to fanoush For This Useful Post: | ||
Newbies click here before posting. Thanks.
If you really need to PM me with troubleshooting question please consider posting it to the forum instead. It is OK to PM me a link to such post then. Thank you.