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strongm |
2015-07-03
, 21:07
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Posts: 496 |
Thanked: 651 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ London
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#401
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Originally Posted by ZogG
Exactly. How could this happen again
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2015-07-04
, 07:41
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#402
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Originally Posted by ZogG
Problem is that you have to be sure when you announce the delay. At this point (about half away of current delay) they might not have enough information themselves if additional delay is needed or not. So they might give an empty statements with informational value of "it may or may not be delayed", but what good would it do?
E.g. "We had a delay and certain problems that we need to fix before release. We hope they'll be solved till X, but it can take even more time and we hope till Y we'll send fore sure. If there would be other delays, we'll inform you as we know our selves."
You don';t even need to go far away and check how TOHKBDv2 was handaled. 3 people not only packed every part (afaik they even soldered a lot by themselves), but kept people informed and communicated more than Jolla that have people, whose job is to communicate and responsible for PR.
They put themselves in this situation. And funny thing that it is happening second time. I think it only shows that they as a company should at least learn on own mistakes and do not repeat them everytime.
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2015-07-04
, 09:23
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Posts: 1,389 |
Thanked: 1,857 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Israel
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#403
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
So basically keeping the only and future customers is not much better?
Problem is that you have to be sure when you announce the delay. At this point (about half away of current delay) they might not have enough information themselves if additional delay is needed or not. So they might give an empty statements with informational value of "it may or may not be delayed", but what good would it do?
Is there also a possibility to say something like "we are heading to release and as for now we hope it will be released at this month as currently there are no expected problems, but we still not finished and we'll keep you updated if there are any other unexpected changes will be met on our way" or "I know we are already 2 month late, but unfortunately we still have the problems, we hope we'll solve them in next X time, but as it not only depend on us (we still have HW screen problems), we can't promise certain date"
And it was me, dyslexic, non native English speaker. But i bet they have copywriters and PR people who can even make it better.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
The small amount? I think you missed that there were 3 people and a high amount of TOHs (most Jolla fans got it) or you think that that Jolla sold billions of tablets? Just take a proportion of company with about 50-100 or now even more people vs 3 people and you'll see that for those 3 people they made not less work that Jolla. I think actually here loved by all "small resources" should be used, but toward TOH creators
Jolla's PR has much more responsibilities than pleasing small portion of small community. There are partners, possible future partners etc. and even they have to get the information from development to be able to present accurate information. It's also a question, how much that PR can and should burden the development and would you be happier if they give delivering some nice-to-know information higher priority than delivering the product. I prefer latter, but it's of course a matter of personal preference.
And about partners, i bet those partners get details and information, and Jolla decide to make crowdfund project, they should consider crowd as partner and funder. It was there decision. Thye can't use supporters only for money. There are costs to this and that's not how it works with those projects. They can't just make this kind of project with crowdfund and act as it's regular one. You can see great example of Pebble doing it, they also did it with both watches and second time as not indie company, but already mature one. They also have limited resources and own product altogether with OS.
As i mentioned before, 3rd party companies that actually can make applications and HW addons for Jolla, actually would not make any, as all they see is delay and no futher info. It only bad for Jolla, as without apps and 3rd party support, all you have are Android apps, but then again why would i buy Jolla to run Android apps?
And do you really think that person that works at Jolla office do not have any clue? Or PR and communication people only come once in few months for few hours? Or do you think they have only one computer and as they type posts, devs wait for them to finish? No one here asks for all details.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
True, but we and even Jolla itself talked about it from first day, but after few years the situation is the same, and that's what people should pay attention to. It's like the kid's story and the boy and wolves. Who just for jokes cried "wolves, wolves" everytime just to bring attention, while there were no wolves, but at some point when wolves came and he cried, no one believed him, as previous times he just lied about it.
Yea. Maybe they should cease creating products altogether, so we can be happy. No more mistakes.
Someone mentioned here how a lot of questions that Jolla got on meetings got no answer. And i would take SIP as an example, I remember back when i was at Jolla IRC, one of sailors said it's community part now to make the SIP integrations, but AFAIK community now made their part, but nothing came from Jolla. So Jolla are easy on pointing out how it's community responsibility, and when community makes it part, they just disappear.
EDIT2:
Oh you mean to stop development with community? They did not even started... They only talk about it. They did not make it easier for devs, didn't/don't provide info when it was/is needed. Actually they talk more about co-operating with users, just to make non-tech fans, who do not see whole picture and mass media to think how it's opensource and transparent, they use those words a lot. They promote this way. That's cheap PR. They just saw a huge opportunity in maemo and alike FOSS and linux fans and when Nokia was gone, they used it. But after all words are words, but deeds are deeds. While they do contribute to some opensource projects, but you need to understand that those projects they use, same as NVidia and even Microsoft contribute to opensource projects. And even few of them are the projects that most devs now work for Jolla(mer), so it would be logical for Jolla to control it and use it in own goods with option to limit devs/users where it's needed and use them(devs/users) for own profit. In analogy while lately hackatons became popular, many companies now use them for own benefit, while the whole point of public community hackaton for not-profits, but today instead of paying money for devs, some companies just give T-shirts and small prices to "make" hackers want to work for free and make products.
Using opensource spirit and fooling hackers is the new way of corporations to control and use them
Last edited by ZogG; 2015-07-04 at 10:03. Reason: 1st - missed word, 2nd - got wrong the last quoted paragraph
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2015-07-04
, 09:52
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Posts: 1,389 |
Thanked: 1,857 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Israel
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#404
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I was just told that TOHKBDv2 team made about 1,5k keyboards and it's about 3 ppl in team. While Jolla at least have 50 people(i think it's about 100, but who knows) and external resources, fundings and connections as a company... So do the math...
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2015-07-04
, 10:26
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#405
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Originally Posted by ZogG
I prefer accurate information, not speculative announcements which basically boil down to "it may or may be not"-type of non-information. It doesn't add anything. Currently it has been announced that they will deliver at the end of July and if there is really nothing to add to it, either to confirm the day the deliveries start, or that they need another delay, I don't see any reason to announce something.
So basically keeping the only and future customers is not much better?
Is there also a possibility to say something like "we are heading to release and as for now we hope it will be released at this month as currently there are no expected problems, but we still not finished and we'll keep you updated if there are any other unexpected changes will be met on our way" or "I know we are already 2 month late, but unfortunately we still have the problems, we hope we'll solve them in next X time, but as it not only depend on us (we still have HW screen problems), we can't promise certain date"
And it was me, dyslexic, non native English speaker. But i bet they have copywriters and PR people who can even make it better.
The small amount? I think you missed that there were 3 people and a high amount of TOHs (most Jolla fans got it) or you think that that Jolla sold billions of tablets? Just take a proportion of company with about 50-100 or now even more people vs 3 people and you'll see that for those 3 people they made not less work that Jolla. I think actually here loved by all "small resources" should be used, but toward TOH creators
And about partners, i bet those partners get details and information, and Jolla decide to make crowdfund project, they should consider crowd as partner and funder. It was there decision. Thye can't use supporters only for money.
Oh you mean to stop development with community? They did not even started... They only talk about it. They did not make it easier for devs, didn't/don't provide info when it was/is needed. Actually they talk more about co-operating with users, just to make non-tech fans, who do not see whole picture and mass media to think how it's opensource and transparent, they use those words a lot. They promote this way. That's cheap PR. They just saw a huge opportunity in maemo and alike FOSS and linux fans and when Nokia was gone, they used it. But after all words are words, but deeds are deeds. While they do contribute to some opensource projects, but you need to understand that those projects they use, same as NVidia and even Microsoft contribute to opensource projects. And even few of them are the projects that most devs now work for Jolla(mer), so it would be logical for Jolla to control it and use it in own goods with option to limit devs/users where it's needed and use them(devs/users) for own profit. In analogy while lately hackatons became popular, many companies now use them for own benefit, while the whole point of public community hackaton for not-profits, but today instead of paying money for devs, some companies just give T-shirts and small prices to "make" hackers want to work for free and make products.
Using opensource spirit and fooling hackers is the new way of corporations to control and use them
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2015-07-04
, 11:06
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Posts: 1,389 |
Thanked: 1,857 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Israel
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#406
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Are you serious? So with that logic they can have as much delays as they want without telling? So after 2 years the Jolla will release tablet and it would be okay with you?
...or that they need another delay, I don't see any reason to announce something.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
True, you can't compare 3 indie people making huge project with HW and SW parts all by themselves, including some soldering (both manual and automatic, but at own place) with company who have employees, $$$, 3rd parties involved(who help with drives and HW), outsourced production (they do not manufacture or assemble parts, do they?)
Yea, and compared to Tablet or phone, it's way simpler. You really cannot compare those projects in any way.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
And did you get the product?
Partners get the relevant information, they don't get all of the information. I have already seen how excessive fixation on reporting and fancy graphs made once agile company go almost to death spiral and it was not fun to be on board at that time. So I don't really welcome reporting and announcements if there is a) cost for development and delivery and b) it doesn't add anything concrete, in addition to please couple of people. Getting the product into delivery should be the priority now, and it's also the wiest way to spend that crowdsourced money. At least I paid because I wanted the product, not some freaking reports every couple of days.
And again i don't get how writting once in 2 weeks/month post is spending money when they have people, whose actual job to do theat and they pay them salary, doesn't matter if they write post or not. And it doesn't involve developers. Even more, when one of co-founders finds time to give a TED-talk about community driven, opensource made by community tablet, which is mostly untrue as we see it now, spending money on that PR, but not to inform people who actually funded the project...
And you know what, Jolla actually told they'll write those post and even specific post about display details. But i think it's top secret now for reason as problem is not solved, or they want to write post after tablet released? I think not. Then if post is not here and no info, maybe there is no screen and there would be no July release?
Are you that sure that there would be July release? And if not, would it might be sept if not nov, as there are upcomming holidays.
And in your logic there is no need to inform customer that 2 month delay may easily can be 5-6 month delay. And i think Jolla has to tell on this matter. It's not week or two.
And believe me if it happens, they'll again appologize after they fail to see it, as there would be not 5 people writting post on how it's actually problematic, but whole angry mob and bad reviews on sites and blogs. So which is better for them? To make some small posts to inform now once in few weeks/month or to have huge rants and negativity after?
I do understand you wanted to mention that you was on board of some company, but it's irrelevant. There are a lot of boards in different companies with different people. And not all make good decisions as whole boards and not all members are useful (not a personal, just pointing out how it's irrelevant).
Stop thinking corporation, otherwise you get another android or even apple (afaik apple is based on *nix and use a lot of opensource projects, mostly bsd so they do not opensource anything, same as Jolla with their BSD licensed components. You see that they opensource parts they have due license and do not opensource parts they can, as in their model business like in Apple's one, opensourcing something is bad, they want mostly profit, and even play it as card "we are opensource lovers". But how long this game will continue? You can make profit with opensource products, i'm not asking 100% opensource, but at least something they can actually may use word "opensource" in all their cheap PRs)
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
i would ask opposite, why Jolla related stuff here, if Jolla declined to use maemo as communication platform. And here is FOSS, linux fans community with opensource and hacking spirit, that was way before Jolla, and i was member way before Jolla. So is it me or Jolla in wrong place?
Well, if it¨'s really that bad, why are you here? Why not jumping on board with all those others who make and do everything way better than Jolla ever did and ever does?
I think i'm in right place and talking on right subjects in right way actually. Though if you don't want to see topics like that you can try to discuss and have constrictive conversation on Jolla based forums or other platforms..... Oh, wait... There is only mess TJS which is forum and FAQ and bugtracker and whatever monster combine it is
P.S. Not trying to hurt anyone, just little bit of sarcasm and actual facts to the point when someone tells me, I'm in wrong place, like it's Jolla private forum
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2015-07-04
, 12:11
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Moderator |
Posts: 5,320 |
Thanked: 4,464 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#407
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Originally Posted by ZogG
Just like to point out, none of the other alt. platforms could give a rats *** about this community, you burn bridges with Jolla, you burn bridges with everyone. Oh, except for maybe Neo900, but who are we kidding, that's always going to be uber-niche, even more uber-niche than Jolla/Sailfish (which is crazy uber-niche). Sure, we still have the legacy platforms, & maybe that'll be just fine -but for how long.
i would ask opposite, why Jolla related stuff here, if Jolla declined to use maemo as communication platform. And here is FOSS, linux fans community with opensource and hacking spirit, that was way before Jolla, and i was member way before Jolla. So is it me or Jolla in wrong place?
I think i'm in right place and talking on right subjects in right way actually. Though if you don't want to see topics like that you can try to discuss and have constrictive conversation on Jolla based forums or other platforms..... Oh, wait... There is only mess TJS which is forum and FAQ and bugtracker and whatever monster combine it is
P.S. Not trying to hurt anyone, just little bit of sarcasm and actual facts to the point when someone tells me, I'm in wrong place, like it's Jolla private forum
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2015-07-04
, 12:18
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Posts: 1,389 |
Thanked: 1,857 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Israel
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#408
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Originally Posted by jalyst
I don't see Jolla doing it too. Yes there are few fellows that are from Jolla here (most of them were here before Jolla). Yes we speak here about Jolla. But AFAIK Jolla refused to use TMO as something related to them. And it's not like TMO alive because of Jolla, though there are a lot of Jolla related topics, but this is because a lot of people find TMO useful place with a lot of info and strong(and once mighty) community. Same as there are Tizen(there are guys here who participate), Ubuntu(few members here now work for them, btw including ex-intern from Jolla) or even WebOS discussion. Just happen to be, people here more interested in Jolla and there is no more useful and comfort platform to discuss(TJC is not that), while tizen and ubuntu have a lot of other places.
Just like to point out, none of the other alt. platforms could give a rats *** about this community, you burn bridges with Jolla, you burn bridges with everyone. Oh, except for maybe Neo900, but who are we kidding, that's always going to be uber-niche, even more uber-niche than Jolla/Sailfish (which is crazy uber-niche). Sure, we still have the legacy platforms, & maybe that'll be just fine -but for how long.
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2015-07-04
, 12:24
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Posts: 440 |
Thanked: 2,256 times |
Joined on Jul 2014
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#409
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Originally Posted by ZogG
I think your sense of scale is a little off here, there was 1200 keyboards made and rough guestimates put the number of Jolla Phones at around 50k-100k. This isn't really "most Jolla fans" as you put it.
The small amount? I think you missed that there were 3 people and a high amount of TOHs (most Jolla fans got it) or you think that that Jolla sold billions of tablets? Just take a proportion of company with about 50-100 or now even more people vs 3 people and you'll see that for those 3 people they made not less work that Jolla. I think actually here loved by all "small resources" should be used, but toward TOH creators
Bringing a smarphone to market with a new operating system not based off android is a monumental achievement, the TOHKBD project kinda pales in comparison. Of course the TOHKBD guys did a fantastic job and I hope everyone is happy with their keyboards, and it also does not excuse the radio silence from Jolla about the Tablet, but comparing the two projects really is like comparing Oranges to Battleships.
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2015-07-04
, 12:35
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Moderator |
Posts: 5,320 |
Thanked: 4,464 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#410
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Originally Posted by ZogG
Hmm, it seems you're forgetting the discussions they had with us here before TJC was implemented, they explained in great detail at the time why they felt it wasn't right to use here, Stefano in particular was constantly posting & explaining why, you seem to be (conveniently?) forgetting all of that. I'm not excusing their total absence here (& their own infra. to some extent) though, there can be no excuse for that IMHO.
I don't see Jolla doing it too. Yes there are few fellows that are from Jolla here (most of them were here before Jolla). Yes we speak here about Jolla. But AFAIK Jolla refused to use TMO as something related to them.
Same as there are Tizen(there are guys here who participate), Ubuntu(few members here now work for them, btw including ex-intern from Jolla) or even WebOS discussion. Just happen to be, people here more interested in Jolla and there is no more useful and comfort platform to discuss(TJC is not that), while tizen and ubuntu have a lot of other places.
Last edited by jalyst; 2015-07-04 at 12:54.
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