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sid21177 is offline sid21177
2014-10-24 , 23:20
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#61
Originally Posted by szopin View Post
will they not be banned from android alliance? I'm afraid thisbis the wishful thinking part on our side
I would think not if they sell to the user directly.
Once I buy a phone, I am allowed put whatever on it (as long as its legal)
 
gerbick
2014-10-25 , 04:37
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#62
Here's my problem. I don't think that they've "failed" per se; they've yet to reach critical mass in regards to developers bringing forward offerings that people truly want. Instead, it's a bunch of stuff under-utilizing tools and libraries adding to what some would call a rather difficult to get used to, gesture based UI.

And to think... it was stated to be more open than Android, Windows Phone 8, iOS... yet, each time a "more open" device comes out, it rarely equates into sales. Face it, the community failed in their support. But Jolla didn't grow that community either.

The marketing was done horribly, the way that they've been seen on social and/or other media outlets is rather amateurish and at times, a bit too reactive. They have somehow incurred the wrath of a certain individual; so having a semi-nemesis must count for something, right?

Really, the issue with Jolla is that they never really told their compelling story to people that would share it. Nerds, geeks, developers tend to talk within their own tight circles only. Early adopters will always paint the "I MUST HAVE IT" picture followed very closely with the "IT WASN'T WORTH IT" picture.

Jolla didn't connect with the right people. They didn't push into certain markets - no, I don't mean North America. They didn't really embrace the push they had that would have been seen as early momentum.

What to do now? The community didn't support Jolla. I think it's best that the community moves out of the way. It's too toxic to have this community to support anything other than their own agendas as of late.

That's my take.
 

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szopin is offline szopin
2014-10-25 , 06:21
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#63
Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Here's my problem. I don't think that they've "failed" per se; they've yet to reach critical mass in regards to developers bringing forward offerings that people truly want. Instead, it's a bunch of stuff under-utilizing tools and libraries adding to what some would call a rather difficult to get used to, gesture based UI.

And to think... it was stated to be more open than Android, Windows Phone 8, iOS... yet, each time a "more open" device comes out, it rarely equates into sales. Face it, the community failed in their support. But Jolla didn't grow that community either.

The marketing was done horribly, the way that they've been seen on social and/or other media outlets is rather amateurish and at times, a bit too reactive. They have somehow incurred the wrath of a certain individual; so having a semi-nemesis must count for something, right?

Really, the issue with Jolla is that they never really told their compelling story to people that would share it. Nerds, geeks, developers tend to talk within their own tight circles only. Early adopters will always paint the "I MUST HAVE IT" picture followed very closely with the "IT WASN'T WORTH IT" picture.

Jolla didn't connect with the right people. They didn't push into certain markets - no, I don't mean North America. They didn't really embrace the push they had that would have been seen as early momentum.

What to do now? The community didn't support Jolla. I think it's best that the community moves out of the way. It's too toxic to have this community to support anything other than their own agendas as of late.

That's my take.
Interesting take, just not sure, are jolla responsible for crazy people existing on the internet (this is regarding the nemesis)? And as to community being toxic, is this about council vs ev? Stopped following that a while ago, not sure what's currently going on in that thread. I wasn't thinking of community in the sense of tmo having banners or similar, more as what people within the community can do.
 
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ZogG is offline ZogG
2014-10-25 , 08:26
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#64
Originally Posted by szopin View Post
I have to disagree strongly, jolla was very open why internal tracker has to be closed (oxy***** but it isn't once you consider business obligations), again this thread is about ideas that don't require jolla to break business partnerships/relationships/selling stock, more about what the community can do on its own, without 'release all the sources' crying.

you can add oxy-m-o-r-o-n to the smartwatch list
while bug tracker could be nice (as i do not see how question->answers TJC engine as a tool for that) I was not referring to that, even not to proper roadmap, by the way how come both can make the problem with business or partners, I have no idea, as it's for reporting bugs from community and not posting leaked information, right?
I'm talking though about problems that appeared and people complained over twitter or TJC and only after some point they got Jolla attention, while they could prevent all the noise from the beginning, for example the most common is communication problem, which btw still exists mostly.



Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Here's my problem. I don't think that they've "failed" per se; they've yet to reach critical mass in regards to developers bringing forward offerings that people truly want. Instead, it's a bunch of stuff under-utilizing tools and libraries adding to what some would call a rather difficult to get used to, gesture based UI.

And to think... it was stated to be more open than Android, Windows Phone 8, iOS... yet, each time a "more open" device comes out, it rarely equates into sales. Face it, the community failed in their support. But Jolla didn't grow that community either.

The marketing was done horribly, the way that they've been seen on social and/or other media outlets is rather amateurish and at times, a bit too reactive. They have somehow incurred the wrath of a certain individual; so having a semi-nemesis must count for something, right?

Really, the issue with Jolla is that they never really told their compelling story to people that would share it. Nerds, geeks, developers tend to talk within their own tight circles only. Early adopters will always paint the "I MUST HAVE IT" picture followed very closely with the "IT WASN'T WORTH IT" picture.

Jolla didn't connect with the right people. They didn't push into certain markets - no, I don't mean North America. They didn't really embrace the push they had that would have been seen as early momentum.

What to do now? The community didn't support Jolla. I think it's best that the community moves out of the way. It's too toxic to have this community to support anything other than their own agendas as of late.

That's my take.
The success of android and iPhone are communities/fanboys. While company can make applications and promote and partnership with other companies, it would not help (we now see the younite and angry birds example). Most 3rd parties would not spend money or time to develop applications/services without community behind platform, and community would not grow with no applications(as users part) and with no company cowork and trying to make most to comfort/interest devs or user community those devs would develop too. Now as we know jolla is not more open that android and i bet it would not be, as there would be always some "but", why it is so different and better? In other post someone called jolla as more smartphone that iPhone, but I'm not sure how "smartphonability" is measured. That you have linux console on small device and different UI(arguably with good UX, as it's not feels native as for example innovative N9 was). While android and even maybe iPhone can provide you with ssh and terminal, they also provide your with better support both from companies and community and more services and ecosystem. You can tell that Jolla has small resources as always, but that's exactly the point of having community with opensource spirit, but they want to be the creators and in control, they do not want to be co-creaters, do it makes no different from other platforms. I still do not understand what "unlike" stand for, everyone loves to use this word but seems no one can explain what is this unlikeness.
And as of your proposal to stand behind do called toxic community, who they sell phone too? Who would bring income? In every community there is toxic, but as far as community is active and jolla is helping, this toxic would be in shadow of that work, but cooperation is so small that this toxic is throwing shadow on all that.
You see, even Microsoft nowdays creating hacks tons event and somehow listens to community and if such big corporate company changing it's politics (to survive and blend in as things and trends change), why jolla that always talks about FOSS doesn't do that? They limit community, they try to shape it exactly as they want, but it doesn't work (in any relationships).
But as you propose to leave community behind(as they try it from the begining) and what? Throw drop codes sometimes? Don't we have such companies in Linux world, but we still do not trust them and "hate" them. I think there are reasons why opensource OpenOffice was forked (and mysql btw), it was opensource but it repeat again - opensource is not even about code, it's more than that.
Btw i did not want to raise it, but I'll do. As far as i know few sailors left, we do not know real reason. They left peacefully (i mean still saying jolla and sailors are awesome) but as i see it when someone quit it means he is not fully likes what he does or what he gets. So why if jolla so hacker friendly and opensource and interesting, people would leave?

I see it as if jolla doesn't want to help itself, no one can...

P.S. It's not a rant, I'm not just saying "jolla crap" or call it names, I do tell where I see problem and even sometimes propose resolutions, but it's so hard for some to get negative opinions, so instead of stopping and asking "maybe there is something I can learn from... there is something behind this" they have their eyes red in blood with "how come that someone said the bad word about my beloved company I will give my kidneys for" (who is toxic after all)
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gerbick
2014-10-27 , 01:32
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#65
Originally Posted by ZogG View Post
The success of android and iPhone are communities/fanboys.
I do not disagree with this sentiment at all. But the playing field before iOS and Android arrived made it easier to build their current "empires".

While company can make applications and promote and partnership with other companies, it would not help (we now see the younite and angry birds example). Most 3rd parties would not spend money or time to develop applications/services without community behind platform, and community would not grow with no applications(as users part) and with no company cowork and trying to make most to comfort/interest devs or user community those devs would develop too.
Agree here too actually. But you're skirting my statement - this community is toxic and underutilizes the tools and libraries to deliver things that have not exactly grown third party support. It's "toxic" not because of how badly those apps were; but because of how toxic the community has been to Jolla.

Simply stated, if the community is so willing to go after Jolla, the people that made their phone, how dare anybody try to charge them for something on an "open" (disputable) phone or platform. If I were a third party app developer that had something that could expand my reach but I saw how the community was so steeped into cannibalization over minor things; I would avoid that platform at all costs until it no longer made financial sense to avoid it. That's not going to happen quite yet.

Mostly due to how it was marketed; the rest due to how the community treats their own kind. A stranger has no chance.

Now as we know jolla is not more open that android and i bet it would not be, as there would be always some "but", why it is so different and better? In other post someone called jolla as more smartphone that iPhone, but I'm not sure how "smartphonability" is measured.
Me neither. I would say that Jolla actually fits my needs for a smartphone better than the iPhone would actually. I don't consume music, videos or other of their iTunes based offerings. I consume other data - but so far Android has filled that gap. So did BB10.

Usablity, BB10, followed closely by a simplified take on Android fits me now. Before, Harmattan fit my usage patterns better than anybody had before.

I still do not understand what "unlike" stand for, everyone loves to use this word but seems no one can explain what is this unlikeness.
Again, I chalk this up to bad marketing. That personal story of what made them unlike was actually established upfront; just wasn't maintained. Now? It's an afterthought.

And as of your proposal to stand behind do called toxic community, who they sell phone too?
Anybody else that is tired of the status quo but also knows how to transition people from the status quo to something just as familiar and user friendly with the same and/or better options. I want Skype? I'd have to use the Android version that's actually lagging behind the iOS and Windows Phone version. That can't be helped though, that's Microsoft.

I want to use Google Hangouts? I use it for SMS, chats, video and team coordination now more than ever - as an extension from Google Voice and G+ (which I'm not a fan of). Guess what? I'd be out of luck on Jolla. I like to sketch my notes - I don't have iOS Penultimate and I've not seen any talk of Evernote from Android working on Jolla where the newest version allows for sketching.

That last one, I might be wrong; however I'm in a market where I can't even try that out. And that's another problem.

But who to sell to? Anybody but this toxic community. They won't appreciate it anyway because they don't have granular control with so many things - the UI being the biggest pet peeve it seems. There's other things, but in the end, this community is not the intended target. If they were; then a developer's program for devices should have been instated.

The devs had to buy their own devices.

Who would bring income?
Early adopters that are outliers - there's a lot of people that are not trustful of Apple and Google at the moment. I'd advertise that I had: no NSA backends, I'd expose each and every government request for information, our OS is optimized to the point of where it doesn't need the nonsensical 8-core and 4gb hardware that's already obsolete the moment it arrives, and there's better alternatives to how you privately chat/talk to people from app to app or phone to phone. Not saying that security via obscurity is an option or marketable stance; however it would have reinforced the pertinent parts of "unlike".

In every community there is toxic, but as far as community is active and jolla is helping, this toxic would be in shadow of that work, but cooperation is so small that this toxic is throwing shadow on all that.
First part, agree. Second part, disagree. Toxicity has reached to a point where it's upfront and not dealt with.

You see, even Microsoft nowdays creating hacks tons event and somehow listens to community and if such big corporate company changing it's politics (to survive and blend in as things and trends change), why jolla that always talks about FOSS doesn't do that? They limit community, they try to shape it exactly as they want, but it doesn't work (in any relationships).
Now I think you're getting to the root of why the community might be toxic. I agree here too.

But as you propose to leave community behind(as they try it from the begining) and what?
No. Don't leave the community as it stands. Embrace it; good and bad. Don't try to shape it; learn how to interface it. Set up a dev program, open up how you communicate to the community, have each and every person on your roster that's visible be on the same page. Have hack-a-thons where you embrace and push the fruits of those labors. Show your monthly idea/company/direction off in a way that seems genuine and shows your device as the framework to innovation.

Don't market to a group of experienced developers that they can change the world then tell them the parameters after the fact. At times, I feel this is what happened. And this is a beef with the marketing, not the company.

Personally, I think you have some great ideas - it just comes down to a company coming down to eye level with the developers and the community and understanding that they'll have to grow together while growing the platform. Together.

Not as something that's to be put on a leash.

I see it as if jolla doesn't want to help itself, no one can...
I'm still aiming at marketing primarily. There's other things that need help; however I'd say that if you market something, use words that people can believe because they see it (or lie and distort reality bad enough to where your lies become promises).

I like Marc Dillon for instance. He talks, I listen, I get excited. Then it hits me... I can't buy the damn thing to even touch it and use it in real life situations. As a dev, I've no access to a lesser priced version. So I'm stuck. I could buy via Amazon UK, send to a friends house in the UK, then receive it in the US. But you know what?

I don't have a compelling reason to do that. Not after what I lived through with the N9. No thanks. I do that, the company changes direction, or continues to exclude me and what will I have? A phone I'd rather not sell on eBay yet because it'll bring me next to nothing.

So I'll wait.

P.S. It's not a rant, I'm not just saying "jolla crap" or call it names, I do tell where I see problem and even sometimes propose resolutions, but it's so hard for some to get negative opinions, so instead of stopping and asking "maybe there is something I can learn from... there is something behind this" they have their eyes red in blood with "how come that someone said the bad word about my beloved company I will give my kidneys for" (who is toxic after all)
Didn't see your responses as a rant at all. Thank you for the adult conversation and thank you for not taking my statements as a rant either.

I rather enjoyed this back and forth.
 

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pichlo is offline pichlo
2014-10-27 , 08:06
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#66
Hey guys, the title of this thread is, "What can (the) community do to help Jolla?", but it has deteriorated again into, "What has Jolla done wrong." Can we please get back on the topic?

I believe what makes a platform attractive is the "ecosystem", however profane Mr Elop has made that word sound. The most important factor is the number and range of available applications. "There's an app for that" is not just an empty phrase. Build it and they will come.

So how can we help Jolla? Make a lot of different apps, of course! Stop bitching about Jolla and get cracking. Those without the skills to do anything constructive can at least stop doing the destructive part.

Does Jolla want help? Now that IS a valid question. "I did it my way" is all nice and commendable but how much longer can they pull that cart without help? So how can Jolla help us to help them? If their problem is really a resource shortage, then the most obvious answer is, invite the community to do some of the work. Not just apps, but also basic functionality. I sense that there is a will in the community to help out in this way. There are also other ways, like allow paid apps or offer prize incentives. Even mighty Nokia did not shy away from those.
 

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salyavin is offline salyavin
2014-10-27 , 16:32
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#67
I agree on building more apps and I agree they should allow paid apps. Even open source software can have source available but in the store the rpm must be paid for. gPodder did that in the Ovi store, you could even get the deb from other places. It would be good to have as many native apps as possible and not depend on the android compat to fill holes.

For example in my house I see no women's cycle tracker, the N9 had one (women use phones too you know). I enjoy reading status.net still so one of those would be nice and perhaps diaspora but those won't have a huge user base. Most users love games (I actually don't really play them) so for appeal one could always use more good games.
 

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ZogG is offline ZogG
2014-10-27 , 19:27
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#68
Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
Hey guys, the title of this thread is, "What can (the) community do to help Jolla?", but it has deteriorated again into, "What has Jolla done wrong." Can we please get back on the topic?
Really? So "learning on mistakes" or "without knowing your past you have no future" are no logical at all here?
Maybe you should start to understand that if everything was perfect they would no need help and even if they do we would help them but not just opening threads and writing a lot of blah-blah-blah.

I do feel like by saying what they did wrong (btw i do suggest resolution for a lot of things as well), as well as most the things they did bad, they repeat time after time. So before running forward, you need to stop and look around and fix what we have instead of starting to do more mistakes. ( e.g. are misinformation, still lack of communication in many places, not much cooperation)

You can't ask for help and tell others how to help you. So basically the starter would be to learn how to get help.
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JulmaHerra is offline JulmaHerra
2014-10-27 , 20:32
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#69
Originally Posted by ZogG View Post
Really? So "learning on mistakes" or "without knowing your past you have no future" are no logical at all here?
Depends if we are going to concentrate on problems, or if we are going to concentrate on solutions. I fully agree on Gebrick's take that this community has become very toxic towards Jolla (IMO it was more or less toxic from the very beginning before we knew next to nothing about the device), almost to extent that it has become more like problem itself. There are things that could have been executed better and I'm positive that Jolla will make an effort to address at least some concerns. However, I do recognize that there is limit on how much toxic human beings can take before cooperation begins to deteriorate. This, in my experience, is pretty much dependent on attitudes in community - are we concentrating on problems, or are we looking for solutions even if not all our demands can be met in reasonable way. The question is, would you want to have contact with someone who turns hostile on instant if he doesn't get what he wants in a way he wants immediately, simply ignoring reasons and explanations why some things are like they are? Or would you ask help from such person? I really doubt it.

Its pity to say, but I have started to question the whole community thing because of all toxicity in both relations with Jolla and inside the community overall. After Nokia's abandonment this seems to have turned to playground of it's own internal agendas and instead of idea of cooperation/coexistence, it primary concentrates on how much it can get out of small company like Jolla. So yes, there is logic from learning from past mistakes - but the lesson learned may also be that it's better limit contact with toxic community to get things done instead of wasting that energy in constant battles in war that cannot be won. That's my subjective take on this, Jolla likely doesn't see it the same way I do, they still want to embrace a community and cooperation (though they are unable to support it sufficiently at the moment, some things have to be built first and those can be done only by Jolla and nobody else).
Last edited by JulmaHerra; 2014-10-27 at 20:35.
 

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pichlo is offline pichlo
2014-10-27 , 21:26
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#70
Originally Posted by ZogG View Post
Really?
Yes, really. There are already dozens of threads about Jolla's shortcomings, perceived or real. We really do not need another one.
 

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