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2015-01-27
, 16:12
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Posts: 1,055 |
Thanked: 4,107 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Norway
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#3242
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Originally Posted by pichlo
It does work, it's just not working at optimal efficiency. It says: "please give me a list of all my installed packages in the virtual repository", and then, locally, discards the ones that don't apply.
Yes, and that is the part that does not work when two devices with different app sets share the same account.
Originally Posted by pichlo
You're right of course that with effort, it's possible to do this in any number of different ways, but looking at the large amount of things already on the plate, I question if this is something important enough to spend effort on.
One way to reduce that is to split it in two parts: 1) names and versions, 2) dependencies. That way, the difficult part (parsing the dependencies) would be done only for the specific package the user selects for installation or upgrade and only when he choses to do so.
Originally Posted by pichlo
Yup, you implicitly trust your repository provider. If you don't, you might want to reconsider, considering you're installing software directly from them. The thing is what you trust them with, of course, which is a bit of a different thing
Please note that there is still an information leakage ("Johny is installing package X"), but only to the repository that provides that package and that is unavoidable anyway.
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i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
if you like, read more about me.
if you find me entertaining, or useful, thank me. if you don't, then tell me why.
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2015-01-27
, 16:25
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Posts: 6,445 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#3243
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Originally Posted by w00t
Thanks w00t, that paragraph has finally answered the question for me.
It does work, it's just not working at optimal efficiency. It says: "please give me a list of all my installed packages in the virtual repository", and then, locally, discards the ones that don't apply.
I am completely satisfied.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2015-01-27
, 17:22
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#3244
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Originally Posted by pichlo
If app is bound to the device, then the device needs to be identified somehow. If you buy an app, you need to pay it somehow, which in online world means you'll need to disclose certain information about yourself, which then can be easily identify you being the one using or paying for software used in that device.
- You do? How? What data? Sorry, you've confused me.
You are suggesting nothing more than moving this backup out of your control and have it on some central server in Helsinki. Not that there is anything wrog with that per se, but it should not be compulsory.
[*]Making sure you have the same applications installed on two different devices.
This is basically about the "centralized backup" as mentioned above. Well, I am the kind of a person who
a) May want two devices with completely different application sets;
b) Does not mind to install the same appliocation twice;
c) Would be p!$$ed off if the device forced the same app sets on my two devices because I used the same account. As happened with Android: the same patch from Motorola was forced on another device in our household. Who cares that the other device was a Samsung? It used the same account
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The transfer of intellectual property.
This is the only case when "something" - not the application, but the right to install it - is associated with the person. An account does not entirely answer that if it can be shared but it is better than nothing. An account also does not help if the app developer wants you to buy a different license for each device, so the developers will just have to suck it and put up with Jolla's distribution scheme. Luckily (for Apple followers, that is) there is alraedy a precedence that people are used to.
Not unconditionally since, as I explained above, it also has its caveats.
It could work as a "convenience" for some but not for others.
Anyway, w00t explained things better than me, so for now this will be my last take on this.
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2015-01-27
, 18:46
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Posts: 6,445 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#3245
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
An app is bound to the device implicitly, simply by being on it. And no, the device does not need to be identified. That was the whole point. The device is the driver of the installation/update, not the Store. (As it turns out, it is the combination of both. I cannot say I prefer that solution but at least it provides the answer.)
If app is bound to the device, then the device needs to be identified somehow.
I said that I'd like to have a list of my purchased and/or installed apps, from which I can choose which ones I want to install on my other/new device. This can be done manually, searching and installing all apps one by one, but it's more time consuming and can be made more streamlined.
Usability and convenience should never be sacrificed for ideological reason, especially in consumer space.
I know this is not the common way in the modern world but my approach to any problem is, "take as little as you need", as opposed to "take as much as you can get." That applies to buffer sizes as well as how much to pack on a holiday and... how much the central repository needs to know about each client.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2015-01-27
, 20:33
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Posts: 764 |
Thanked: 2,888 times |
Joined on Jun 2014
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#3246
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Hm. Well. Not sure if I can agree on that. Ideology, if there is one, should come before usability and convenience. But I suppose that in itself is already an ideology.
That has been my point all along. Usability and convenience should never be sacrificed for ideological reason, especially in consumer space.
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2015-01-27
, 21:24
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#3247
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Originally Posted by pichlo
That's why I said how I'd prefer it to be when I receive my Jolla Tablet.
We don't know anything about purchased apps yet as there is no such support. But my case with two Jollas in the family sharing the same account shows that the streamlining you mention above does not work. At least not at the moment.
Maybe I should actually make a suggestion at TJC....
And therein I believe lies the crux of the whole thing. It is so common to bring up ideological issues to every discussion about anything even remotely connected to "Linux" and "open source" that people tend to automatically assume that every discussion is about ideological issues. I tried to convey all the time that I had technical reasons in mind, not ideological.
I know this is not the common way in the modern world but my approach to any problem is, "take as little as you need", as opposed to "take as much as you can get." That applies to buffer sizes as well as how much to pack on a holiday and... how much the central repository needs to know about each client.
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2015-01-27
, 23:16
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Posts: 4,117 |
Thanked: 8,901 times |
Joined on Aug 2010
@ Ruhrgebiet, Germany
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#3248
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Let me repeat my question (as it may got lost).
Originally Posted by peterleinchen
BTW
can anybody tell me where the data goes that you have to enter on first switch on, i.e. account, name, surname, telephone, birthday and so on?
I would to see that anywhere in settings or in a file or?
And would like to know if this data gets synchronized with jolla online account data?
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2015-01-27
, 23:34
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Posts: 6,445 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#3249
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
That's the scary bit. People are so used to the Apple way that they can't even imagine anything else. The technical innovation stopped in 2007.
I can hardly see any technical reason to implement the store otherwise
Requiring username (which by itself does not identify person behind it in any way) and password is IMO quite far from "take as much as you can get."
Originally Posted by peterleinchen
The phone says the info stays private and I have no reason to apriori assume otherwise. I would imagine its primary purpose is to identify your phone in case of getting lost or stolen but I would also like to know where the info is stored.
Let me repeat my question (as it may got lost).
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2015-01-28
, 06:53
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#3250
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Or, no one has been able to convince people that there is a better way to do it. It it ain't broken, don't fix it.
That's the scary bit. People are so used to the Apple way that they can't even imagine anything else. The technical innovation stopped in 2007.
True but it is just as far from "take as little as you have to", since "as little as you have to" can be absolutely nothing.
The phone says the info stays private and I have no reason to apriori assume otherwise. I would imagine its primary purpose is to identify your phone in case of getting lost or stolen but I would also like to know where the info is stored.
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Debian based systems are plagued by the fact that each time the catalogues are refreshed, the whole shebang with the dependencies is transferred (up to about 10MB per repository in Maemo's case) and parsed. One way to reduce that is to split it in two parts: 1) names and versions, 2) dependencies. That way, the difficult part (parsing the dependencies) would be done only for the specific package the user selects for installation or upgrade and only when he choses to do so.
Please note that there is still an information leakage ("Johny is installing package X"), but only to the repository that provides that package and that is unavoidable anyway.
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!