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sulu	2013-11-05 , 22:02
Posts: 915 \| Thanked: 3,209 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Germany	#1141

Originally Posted by dos1

Our next goal*: 100 000 EUR!

I think this formulation of the goal is misleading, since the next goal is clearly not to raise 100k Euros but to get 1000 serious donors.

I think this distinction is very important since it seems to me 100k Euros is almost a no-brainer:
If 200 people each donated 500 Euros* the 100k were reached.
But if you want 1000 preorders then the hard part is not the money but the sheer number of people.

Please fix that goal formulation!
I'm not alleging anything but in the current situation of the project (money is there, people are not) focussing on the money might raise suspicion.

*) I think both numbers are realistic because if the 100k is the only hurdle and the device will cost 500+ Euro anyways donating this amount is basically just a long shot prepayment.

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	joerg_rw	2013-11-05 , 22:09
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#1142

I'm 100% with sulu on that!

(we're only 3 guys handling all that, and the impact left us paralized and gasping while trying to catch up and get in sync again. Nikolaus took an 'outtime' doing real work today [footprints of AV, USB, whatnot else, checking battery contact and BSI properties] and not answering mails, Sebastian has a job to do during daytime, and I'm simply wondering if i'm dreaming or awake, and discussing mechanics with a friend who knows a lot about mechanic design. I even took a 4h break today D-: )
/j

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-11-05 at 22:20.

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	dos1	2013-11-05 , 22:20
	Posts: 257 \| Thanked: 2,053 times \| Joined on Sep 2010 @ Warsaw, Poland	#1143

Originally Posted by sulu

I think this formulation of the goal is misleading, since the next goal is clearly not to raise 100k Euros but to get 1000 serious donors.

I think this distinction is very important since it seems to me 100k Euros is almost a no-brainer:
If 200 people each donated 500 Euros* the 100k were reached.
But if you want 1000 preorders then the hard part is not the money but the sheer number of people.

Please fix that goal formulation!
I'm not alleging anything but in the current situation of the project (money is there, people are not) focussing on the money might raise suspicion.

*) I think both numbers are realistic because if the 100k is the only hurdle and the device will cost 500+ Euro anyways donating this amount is basically just a long shot prepayment.

The thing is - the donation does not mean that someone will buy the device for sure. We would have to only show donations >= 100 EUR (or even higher), which isn't very kind for people who donate less.

It's hard to do any measurement of "preorders" when there are no preorders yet.

We're thinking about better visualisations than this current progress bar and probably will change it soon - but for now there is this new goal to keep things rolling. I think it's better to have this 100k instead of just "infinity"

Personally, I think the text around the progress bar explains pretty well that the main focus lays now on the number of devices to produce.

(hopefully what I write is not too hard to understand, I'm feeling a bit sick today - tell me to go to bed if I start writing gibberish

)

__________________
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak - https://dosowisko.net/
Long term Openmoko supporter. Owner of two Neo Freerunners, a few N900s and some others too.
Future owner of the Neo900

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	joerg_rw	2013-11-05 , 22:26
	Posts: 2,222 \| Thanked: 12,651 times \| Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3	#1144

I beg to disagree. All donors donating <100EUR can still see their donation counted in the donations-total just like they do right now, just that we don't use a progress bar anymore to show percent of any arbitrarily picked next stage goal. Rather we display donations-total in a numeric way just like we do with donors right now. Then we can use the progress bar to show a final goal of 1000 donors, with an intermediate goal of 200. Until Nikolaus fixed his SQL query we show total donors, after the fix we show total-donors>=100. I think that's a pretty good indication of how many devices we need to produce
What's wrong with this approach?
I suggested it since 3 days now.

I also don't think the text is that brilliant (I may say this since I think it's mainly my authorship). The text doesn't explain what's the real goal - when I read "let's build 1000 devices!" I go "hum! go ahead! I won't stop you"

on a footnote: a zillion internet blogs have quoted our campaign now as "trying to reach 25k" - it looks insincere to now change that to 100k. Particularly without much rationale given. I can't support that.
/j

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-11-05 at 22:36.

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sulu	2013-11-05 , 22:50
Posts: 915 \| Thanked: 3,209 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Germany	#1145

Originally Posted by dos1

The thing is - the donation does not mean that someone will buy the device for sure. We would have to only show donations >= 100 EUR (or even higher), which isn't very kind for people who donate less.

I agree with you on that, but the fact remains that the number of people is the critical point now.

If your only way of measuring that is the number of >100 Euro donations then despite its flaws that's the only and therefore best indicator that's available.
It's like distro popularity charts based on distrowatch hits. The way the statistic is obtained is totally nuts but in lack of a better one it's probably the best out there.

I feel like you when you say you don't want to exclude the <100 Euro donors but please don't let that stop you from having a counter of "serious potential buyers"! Give it an "at least" footnote and be done with it.
I'm also not asking to remove the money bar. It's great. Just re-add the people counter I've already seen this morning (GMT) an make clear that the counter is more important than the bar.

Originally Posted by dos1

Personally, I think the text around the progress bar explains pretty well that the main focus lays now on the number of devices to produce.

No, unfortunately it's not. It only says that you want "as much support as possible". That's just like an infinite money bar. It contains no goal that could be reached. (Imagine a running duel between Bolt and Bekele both not knowing where the finish line is!

)
It's even worse, it doesn't even say what you mean by "support". Is it money? Is it potential buyers? Is it people who help you to run the project?

Please add something like this:

Our goal is to get 1000 seriously interested potential buyers. We already have <counter> of them.
Become one by donating 100 Euros!

(Could someone with proper English skills reformulate that please?)

Edit:
I missed that "Let's produce more than 1 000 devices!" line completely. Sorry for that and thank you Jörg for reminding me. (Maybe I should go to bed too.)
Still it doesn't change my point. Please make it clear why you want to produce 1000 devices (to give them to people! - maybe add a hint that this mark wil reduce the price).
Oh, and put the counter above the bar! You know your website will be visited by lots of people with awfully small screens. So don't put vital information under an eye-catcher that might qualify as a bottom line of all what the site is trying to say. I think that's why I missed it (despite having a big screen in front of me).

Last edited by sulu; 2013-11-05 at 23:02.

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	dos1	2013-11-05 , 22:58
	Posts: 257 \| Thanked: 2,053 times \| Joined on Sep 2010 @ Warsaw, Poland	#1146

Originally Posted by sulu

I'm also not asking to remove the money bar. It's great. Just re-add the people counter I've already seen this morning (GMT) an make clear that the counter is more important than the bar.

Wait. There's still "thanks to 157 donors, we've already collected" and that was the only "people counter" that ever existed on the page. Is that not working for you anymore?

Originally Posted by sulu

I missed that "Let's produce more than 1 000 devices!" line completely. Sorry for that and thank you Jörg for reminding me. (Maybe I should go to bed too.)
Still it doesn't change my point. Please make it clear why you want to produce 1000 devices (to give them to people! - maybe add a hint that this mark wil reduce the price).

There's also hover text on "25 000 EUR" and "100 000 EUR", but I guess people are missing that :/

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sulu	2013-11-05 , 23:13
Posts: 915 \| Thanked: 3,209 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Germany	#1147

Originally Posted by dos1

Wait. There's still "thanks to 157 donors, we've already collected" and that was the only "people counter" that ever existed on the page. Is that not working for you anymore?

No, I've never seen it with my default browser. I usually use Iceweasel with NoScript which blocks everything by default.
Knowing that I've explicitely allowed neo900.org to load content but until now I hadn't for goldelico.com.
In the morning when I saw the counter I was browsing from my HTPC where I use Midori.

So I guess that point is moot then (maybe except for the usual race between programmers and the universe).

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	dos1	2013-11-05 , 23:46
	Posts: 257 \| Thanked: 2,053 times \| Joined on Sep 2010 @ Warsaw, Poland	#1148

Originally Posted by sulu

No, I've never seen it with my default browser. I usually use Iceweasel with NoScript which blocks everything by default.
Knowing that I've explicitely allowed neo900.org to load content but until now I hadn't for goldelico.com.
In the morning when I saw the counter I was browsing from my HTPC where I use Midori.

So I guess that point is moot then (maybe except for the usual race between programmers and the universe).

Oh, right. The only part without a fallback for JS disabled, sorry

Will fix that now, together with the change in progress bar to display number of donors.

BTW. The text is already changed. Hopefully it's now better suited for its purpose.

Thanks for all the suggestions!