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Andre Klapper's Avatar
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#11
Originally Posted by bhang View Post
when will these companies learn backwards compatibility, keeps customers happy, and dropping support pisses off the world and promotes piracy as people feel entitled to the software if the hardware they own is capable to run....
Backwards compatibility is nice, but sometimes you HAVE to break it because otherwise the required efforts are way too huge and make things unnecesarily complicated. Also see other software projects (KDE4? Windows Vista? Upcoming GTK3?).
I have no idea how you can come up with "piracy" here - 80% of the software is open-source anyway, and for the rest Nokia is willing to help the Mer project in getting things working.
And I don't remember Nokia having promised "Buy an N810 and get software updates for the next five years", so I wonder what such expectations are based on.

Originally Posted by bhang View Post
is this new release so different?
Yes, it is. People don't break API just because they are bored.
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benny1967's Avatar
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#12
Originally Posted by Andre Klapper View Post
And I don't remember Nokia having promised "Buy an N810 and get software updates for the next five years", so I wonder what such expectations are based on.
i believe there was a promise once (after the 770-fiasco) that tablets would be supported for at least 2 OS-releases each. i tried to search both google and talk for the exact source but was unable to find it (hard to find search terms that dont generate too much unrelated noise). still i'm pretty sure i remember this correctly as it was repeated several times with regard to N800-users (along the lines of: they'd benefit from N810-upgrades as the N810 would see 2 more OS releases which of course would run on the N800, too.)

also, iirc, the explanation for not keeping this promise was that they counted each diablo-SSU as an OS-release... well...
 
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#13
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
i believe there was a promise once (after the 770-fiasco) that tablets would be supported for at least 2 OS-releases each.
They held that promise:

N800: Bora, Chinook, Diablo
N810: Chinook, Diablo

Elephanta was dropped. That might also have been intended for the N8x0.
 
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#14
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
also, iirc, the explanation for not keeping this promise was that they counted each diablo-SSU as an OS-release... well...
No, they counted Diablo as a major release, so the N810 got "two": Chinook and Diablo. I believe that this claim only came from one Nokian giving a Fremantle talk at the Summit, though. Most everybody else has admitted that it's a weak deal.
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Last edited by GeneralAntilles; 2009-05-05 at 12:30. Reason: Stupid finger keyboard
 

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#15
Originally Posted by pycage View Post
They held that promise:

N800: Bora, Chinook, Diablo
N810: Chinook, Diablo

Elephanta was dropped. That might also have been intended for the N8x0.
even though it's no use to further discuss this now (except with the responsible nokians):
from a consumer's POV, you'd have to count

N800: initial OS2007 + 2 = OS2007, OS2008, Maemo5
N810: initial OS2008 +2 = OS2008, Maemo5, Maemo6

You count based on the official marketing names that are made for communication towards the end user (OS2008), not based on internal codenames or dot-releases (Chinook, Diablo) you wouldn't expect end users to know about.


OTOH, there's some evidence that they had plans to keep this promise when it was made. - even more, i have to admit that maemo-nokians are treating me waaay better than their S60-counterparts. My S60 phone has unbelievable bugs and the one and only (and most probably last) firmware update it ever received didn't fix any of them, nor did it introduce new features. i also have no way to submit and track bugs, get feedback etc.... they're just zombie-esque in the S60 offices.
while part of this zombie tradition might still burden the maemo development, they got rid of most of it and seem pretty much alive and human.
 

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GeneralAntilles's Avatar
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#16
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
N800: initial OS2007 + 2 = OS2007, OS2008, Maemo5
N810: initial OS2008 +2 = OS2008, Maemo5, Maemo6
(I'm really tired of responding to these posts and forgetting I'm on ignore.)

It was for two rounds of support. Not the initial release plus two more, but just two rounds. Meaning the N800 got its "promised" support (I can't actually source where this "promise" may have come from, so it's really not much of one), and the N810 only missed one round.
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#17
AFAIK Nokia never promised anyone any OS upgrades. The upgrades they've issued have been entirely voluntary. (Note that an OS upgrade is a different thing to a firmware upgrade.)


My S60 phone has unbelievable bugs and the one and only (and most probably last) firmware update it ever received didn't fix any of them, nor did it introduce new features. i also have no way to submit and track bugs, get feedback etc.... they're just zombie-esque in the S60 offices.
You're being a bit unfair. Which S60 device do you have? They all use totally different firmware versions, and even the same device may have different firmware in different regions.

S60 firmware updates are very device-specific, and if you have a popular device (for example the N95) you will probably get several firmware updates every year.

My Nokia 5800 has had four firmware versions since it launched, that's about one update a month. That's a far higher update rate than the tablets have received, probably helped by the 5800's sales being on a par with the iPhone's.

But some phones don't sell well at all, and if no one buys them then there isn't much incentive for the manufacturer to issue a firmware update.

No manufacturer ever promises any firmware updates. I know people claim they do, but when you ask for some proof of this claim they never provide any.


Originally Posted by bhang View Post
hey what the fu(k, I just got an n810, because they came down enuff that I didint have to sell any organs
The reason the price has come down so much is precisely because the N810 hardware is so old and they want to get rid of old stock before the new Maemo device goes on sale.

The N810 now costs about half of what it did at launch, that only happens when a device is on the way out.


when will these companies learn backwards compatibility, keeps customers happy, and dropping support pisses off the world and promotes piracy as people feel entitled to the software if the hardware they own is capable to run....
It's not a compatibility problem, it's a hardware problem. Maemo 5 has been built around much faster hardware than the N810.

The N810 uses the same computing hardware as the N800, which was released almost two and a half years ago. It's quite old hardware.

Hopefully Mer will give the N810 and N800 something, but it isn't going to be as good as Maemo 5 because Maemo 5 requires better computing hardware than the N810 can offer.

Last edited by krisse; 2009-05-05 at 18:41.
 

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#18
Originally Posted by krisse View Post
AFAIK Nokia never promised anyone any OS upgrades.
As I said, I'm pretty sure they did. See above.

Originally Posted by krisse View Post
You're being a bit unfair. Which S60 device do you have?
I'm not unfair; not this time.

I'm not denying that there are valid reasons for not updating the firmware. On the contrary, I was pointing out that in spite of all my ranting here, I do realize (sometimes) how lucky I am to get quite a lot of bugfixes on a niche product like the N8x0, while my much more mainstream phone (a 6110 Navigator) suffers negligence. (Actually, what I appreciate even more is that I can come to this place or the bugzilla and have Nokians talk to me about what they'll do and what not. There's no place I can go and write: "Hey, there's a flash in my 6110 Navigator, but I cannot use it because all pictures taken with flash are blue.", then get a ticket number for it and watch how it's being dealt with while others vote for it or add comments...)
 
qgil's Avatar
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#19
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
As I said, I'm pretty sure they did. See above.
I'm certain no Nokia representative could promise 2 or any updates.

One reference is http://www.slideshare.net/qgil/nokia...mobile-context (slide 28)

From Diablo onwards we aim to keep backward compatibility in justified API breaks to grant platform stability.
That was in June 2007. One lesson learned for many of us is that we are not living good years for claiming stability in native environments of mobile devices.

Also, what is an update? For you those "dot" maintenance updates don't seem to count yet they are real maintenance releases and they give us some extra work.
 

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#20
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
I'm certain no Nokia representative could promise 2 or any updates. .
Maybe it was a forum legend then. I'm really surprised that nobody else remembers it... Well, not having the source at hand (and no, the slide you're referring to isn't what I mean here) I'm pretty lost, right?
 
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