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| The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Kabouik For This Useful Post: | ||
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2014-08-29
, 05:03
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Posts: 109 |
Thanked: 59 times |
Joined on Apr 2012
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#132
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Originally Posted by Kabouik
Agree with this observation.
The magnet design is genius. It basically solves the thickness problem that can be a dealbreaker some days, without the need to replace the OH (which is quite difficult with custom-made OHs).
I think a tiny "sliding channel" would be very welcome to guide (and secure) the open/close movements. This would be especially useful as there are only four magnets on the base part, which means binary positions, which in turn means risk of failure in between.
A single and shalow sliding channel would be enough, no need for one on each side. I am sure you are already using the shallowest thickness available at Shapeways, so I guess the "female" part of the sliding channel would basically be a vent, i.e., a hole going all the way through the plastic. That shouldn't really be a problem though. The base part would obviously be optimal for the female slide, as it does not increase thickness when the keyboard is detached, and does not prevent putting the Jolla flat on a table.
Naive sketch below:
http://reho.st/self/6b00cac4fc7a9851...cd88826eaa.png
When the top half has the phone in it, the force needed to slide the pad open may be more due to the weight of the phone (think pushing with thumbs)
Too much force may just force the upper half to fly open
A guiding channel and/or stopping point may be needed.
What if instead of 4 magnets in the top half, you have 2 thin magnets running the length of the displacement distance,
You can have 2 parallel grooves/channels in which 2 bumps on the bottom half fit.
Look at the guide mechanism of a N95 for example
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2014-08-29
, 06:53
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Posts: 1,104 |
Thanked: 5,652 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Holland
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#133
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wow okay, your both ideas combined seem like a possible solution.
to me, the 'binary' positions is not really an issue, as long as in these positions the connection is secure.
my focus is to make it strong, but keep an extremely clean look. next mockup will have stronger magnets and dimples in the binary positions, if that is not satisfactory, then looking into your combined solution.
thanks for the clear pic
to me, the 'binary' positions is not really an issue, as long as in these positions the connection is secure.
my focus is to make it strong, but keep an extremely clean look. next mockup will have stronger magnets and dimples in the binary positions, if that is not satisfactory, then looking into your combined solution.
thanks for the clear pic
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2014-08-29
, 08:33
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Posts: 1,335 |
Thanked: 3,931 times |
Joined on Jul 2010
@ Brittany, France
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#134
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Note that I did include a stopping point in the sketch to avoid "overpushing" the Jolla when opening the keyboard. I am not really concerned about it though, the main use would be the slide channel to guide and force straight push.
What I am concerned about, however, is accidental but dramatic risk of fall of the Jolla when open. Even with strong magnets, a force applied perpendicularly on the Jolla (either screen side or battey side) would detach it. Force would need to be strong enough of course, but that can happen very easily when you are using your phone in a crowded area (subway for instance), but also in many other situations.
So, to avoid that, what would be better than the previous pic would be a sliding mechanism like in the pic below:
It would still be very easy to remove the keypad: just open it and go beyond the "open" magnets. The stopping point is on the other end: you can't go beyond the "closed" state. Doing the opposite (putting the stopping point on the other end) would work too, but I am not sure it would be as secure.
Another idea, close to Sid21177's one, is to use metal bars in the base, in between the pairs of L and R magnets. The keypad's magnets would stick to the base's ones in binary positions, and in between (when moving), they will tend to follow the metal bars. I am not sure magnet bars would be needed (plus you would need the same magnetic pole running the length of the bar, whereas poles are most likely on both ends with magnet bars; not sure I'm clear). However that would be less secure than a "hard" system in the plastic as above, and no end point. But more minamistic, aesthetically.
Last edited by Kabouik; 2014-08-29 at 11:59.
What I am concerned about, however, is accidental but dramatic risk of fall of the Jolla when open. Even with strong magnets, a force applied perpendicularly on the Jolla (either screen side or battey side) would detach it. Force would need to be strong enough of course, but that can happen very easily when you are using your phone in a crowded area (subway for instance), but also in many other situations.
So, to avoid that, what would be better than the previous pic would be a sliding mechanism like in the pic below:
It would still be very easy to remove the keypad: just open it and go beyond the "open" magnets. The stopping point is on the other end: you can't go beyond the "closed" state. Doing the opposite (putting the stopping point on the other end) would work too, but I am not sure it would be as secure.
Another idea, close to Sid21177's one, is to use metal bars in the base, in between the pairs of L and R magnets. The keypad's magnets would stick to the base's ones in binary positions, and in between (when moving), they will tend to follow the metal bars. I am not sure magnet bars would be needed (plus you would need the same magnetic pole running the length of the bar, whereas poles are most likely on both ends with magnet bars; not sure I'm clear). However that would be less secure than a "hard" system in the plastic as above, and no end point. But more minamistic, aesthetically.
Last edited by Kabouik; 2014-08-29 at 11:59.
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2014-08-29
, 13:10
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Posts: 1,104 |
Thanked: 5,652 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Holland
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#135
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i've given this rail some thought, but i run into the following situation:
1. i made a concept without a hinge or slider
2. now only lock in binary positions with magnets
3a. request to have locking system in binary positions
3b. request to have force between parts between binary positions
3c. request to have sliding rail for alignment
4. implementation in design of 3a,3b&3c
5. i now have made a slider and can remove magnets
6. concept is gone, i go crying in the corner
remarks:
- 3a,3b&3c can not be some separately. if i make a hook, i have to make a cutout over the total lenght to let it slide through. this is a slider rail. if i have a slider rail, i have to have a force between both parts at the entire road. so either a complete rail, or magnets along the way.
- i believe a completely clean design and functionality are completely possible to co-exist
- i love the feel of the current design and think that with two very small alignment dimples this will be more than sufficient
so for now you will have to trust me on this (note: i am an engineer) and have faith in my design philosophy. i will not finish before i am happy with the look and feel.
tl;dr
no sliding rail, hook or magnet bars.
1. i made a concept without a hinge or slider
2. now only lock in binary positions with magnets
3a. request to have locking system in binary positions
3b. request to have force between parts between binary positions
3c. request to have sliding rail for alignment
4. implementation in design of 3a,3b&3c
5. i now have made a slider and can remove magnets
6. concept is gone, i go crying in the corner
remarks:
- 3a,3b&3c can not be some separately. if i make a hook, i have to make a cutout over the total lenght to let it slide through. this is a slider rail. if i have a slider rail, i have to have a force between both parts at the entire road. so either a complete rail, or magnets along the way.
- i believe a completely clean design and functionality are completely possible to co-exist
- i love the feel of the current design and think that with two very small alignment dimples this will be more than sufficient
so for now you will have to trust me on this (note: i am an engineer) and have faith in my design philosophy. i will not finish before i am happy with the look and feel.
tl;dr
no sliding rail, hook or magnet bars.
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2014-08-29
, 14:47
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Posts: 1,335 |
Thanked: 3,931 times |
Joined on Jul 2010
@ Brittany, France
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#136
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I get your point, just sharing some thoughts and ideas, but you are definitely the one who is making this keyboard OH, no one will say the opposite I think.
If you plan on making two shallow dimples to help guiding the open/close movements, that's already one potential problem solved. I am also very confident in the strength of the magnets to hold the Jolla firmly. My main concern justifying the second sketch is perpendicular force applied on the Jolla when you hold the opened keyboard. This lever effect can happen very often (several times a day) with enough force to detach strong magnets, and in that case, it's the 400 € fragile Jolla that falls on the ground, not the plastic keyboard (admittedly lighter and more solid). Of course, I wouldn't be that concerned if the Jolla was in hands when the keyboard is opened.
But again, that's your baby. Just sharing my concern as a potential consumer of the final product. I will be happy to be proven wrong with any mechanism preventing such issues, no worries!
(I disagree with statement 5. And with a hook, if you mean the triangular rail, you just have to make a cutout starting from one side, not necessarily going all the way to the opposite sitde. But that is off-topic, just replying.)
If you plan on making two shallow dimples to help guiding the open/close movements, that's already one potential problem solved. I am also very confident in the strength of the magnets to hold the Jolla firmly. My main concern justifying the second sketch is perpendicular force applied on the Jolla when you hold the opened keyboard. This lever effect can happen very often (several times a day) with enough force to detach strong magnets, and in that case, it's the 400 € fragile Jolla that falls on the ground, not the plastic keyboard (admittedly lighter and more solid). Of course, I wouldn't be that concerned if the Jolla was in hands when the keyboard is opened.
But again, that's your baby. Just sharing my concern as a potential consumer of the final product. I will be happy to be proven wrong with any mechanism preventing such issues, no worries!
(I disagree with statement 5. And with a hook, if you mean the triangular rail, you just have to make a cutout starting from one side, not necessarily going all the way to the opposite sitde. But that is off-topic, just replying.)
| The Following User Says Thank You to Kabouik For This Useful Post: | ||
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2014-08-29
, 19:04
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Posts: 109 |
Thanked: 59 times |
Joined on Apr 2012
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#137
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Originally Posted by dirkvl
Its more of a guide channel for the force of your thumbs, coz if someone applies uneven pressure you may end up detaching the top half - and that would be bad news for the phone
i've given this rail some thought, but i run into the following situation:
1. i made a concept without a hinge or slider
2. now only lock in binary positions with magnets
3a. request to have locking system in binary positions
3b. request to have force between parts between binary positions
3c. request to have sliding rail for alignment
4. implementation in design of 3a,3b&3c
5. i now have made a slider and can remove magnets
6. concept is gone, i go crying in the corner
remarks:
- 3a,3b&3c can not be some separately. if i make a hook, i have to make a cutout over the total lenght to let it slide through. this is a slider rail. if i have a slider rail, i have to have a force between both parts at the entire road. so either a complete rail, or magnets along the way.
- i believe a completely clean design and functionality are completely possible to co-exist
- i love the feel of the current design and think that with two very small alignment dimples this will be more than sufficient
so for now you will have to trust me on this (note: i am an engineer) and have faith in my design philosophy. i will not finish before i am happy with the look and feel.
tl;dr
no sliding rail, hook or magnet bars.
I'm not asking to put rails on anything, just
a) 2 shallow grooves in the top parts' underside, and
b) 2 dimples in the bottom part that fit into the grooves to allow for smooth application of force
When the bump hits the end of the groove, the feedback to the hand/user will make them not push the top part further
2 grooves at the ends instead of 1 in the middle (as in the diagram)
But like others have said, its your baby.
Since you asked for opinions I gave mine
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2014-08-30
, 07:43
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Posts: 88 |
Thanked: 84 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
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#138
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I'd like to add something:
It's good to see there's been really good thought over the Jolla, good work!
The magnets is a good idea, I'm not too afraid of the influence on the electronics. Why: the magnetic field has probably been designed to be strong when close and decrease fast when far enough. When opening a HDD (I did, once), there's a strong magnet in it, approx 2 cm from the data disk. Does it erase data? No.
I work at ASML, on of our product contains a big plate (1x2m) with strong magnets inside. People with pacemakers/metals in thei body aren't allowed to come near (within 15cm). The magnet field within 15cm is strong, outside there's no(t) (enough) influence of the field.
What's bothering me is the possible influence of the magnet(s) on the battery: it could influence, but you won't see it and I don't want it to get on fire after a couple of months...
As I see on the movie, the movement of opening the halves isn't perfect/pure: it's not always going in a straight, controlled way to the other magnets. A groove/rib construction would make it better, maybe a magnetic bar between the magnets, so the halves are pulled softly against eachother.
Your problem with the magnets is, I think, it depends on the stable quality of the magnets and the influence of glueing/placeing on the endresult.
For example: you'll probably have variance in the flux your magnets can create. The fluxe you'll have in the end maybe depends on how much glue is used, the distance between magnet/plastic, maybe not position straight. It's completely theoretically, but it would be a pity if the design fails on this small issues.
By the way:
Congratulations, you're effort has been mentioned on Tweakers (dutch tech-site)
It's good to see there's been really good thought over the Jolla, good work!
The magnets is a good idea, I'm not too afraid of the influence on the electronics. Why: the magnetic field has probably been designed to be strong when close and decrease fast when far enough. When opening a HDD (I did, once), there's a strong magnet in it, approx 2 cm from the data disk. Does it erase data? No.
I work at ASML, on of our product contains a big plate (1x2m) with strong magnets inside. People with pacemakers/metals in thei body aren't allowed to come near (within 15cm). The magnet field within 15cm is strong, outside there's no(t) (enough) influence of the field.
What's bothering me is the possible influence of the magnet(s) on the battery: it could influence, but you won't see it and I don't want it to get on fire after a couple of months...
As I see on the movie, the movement of opening the halves isn't perfect/pure: it's not always going in a straight, controlled way to the other magnets. A groove/rib construction would make it better, maybe a magnetic bar between the magnets, so the halves are pulled softly against eachother.
Your problem with the magnets is, I think, it depends on the stable quality of the magnets and the influence of glueing/placeing on the endresult.
For example: you'll probably have variance in the flux your magnets can create. The fluxe you'll have in the end maybe depends on how much glue is used, the distance between magnet/plastic, maybe not position straight. It's completely theoretically, but it would be a pity if the design fails on this small issues.
By the way:
Congratulations, you're effort has been mentioned on Tweakers (dutch tech-site)
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2014-08-31
, 10:02
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Posts: 66 |
Thanked: 46 times |
Joined on Apr 2014
@ Penang, Malaysia
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#139
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so, bro dirkvl, when the keyboard will be available? is it will be in very small and limited quantity too like the first one?
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2014-08-31
, 10:08
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Posts: 1,104 |
Thanked: 5,652 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Holland
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#140
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Originally Posted by blood_falcon
no idea and large quantities
so, bro dirkvl, when the keyboard will be available? is it will be in very small and limited quantity too like the first one?
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| Tags |
| keyboard, kickstarter, other half, tohkbd |
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I think a tiny "sliding channel" would be very welcome to guide (and secure) the open/close movements. This would be especially useful as there are only four magnets on the base part, which means binary positions, which in turn means risk of failure in between.
A single and shalow sliding channel would be enough, no need for one on each side. I am sure you are already using the shallowest thickness available at Shapeways, so I guess the "female" part of the sliding channel would basically be a vent, i.e., a hole going all the way through the plastic. That shouldn't really be a problem though. The base part would obviously be optimal for the female slide, as it does not increase thickness when the keyboard is detached, and does not prevent putting the Jolla flat on a table.
Naive sketch below:
Last edited by Kabouik; 2014-08-29 at 00:02.