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qviri |
2009-06-10
, 00:35
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Posts: 36 |
Thanked: 15 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ London
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#21
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Originally Posted by ragnar
Is there any particular reason you are unable to state "the finger scrollable text windows support text selection" (or, alternatively, "the finger scrollable text windows support text selection")?
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2009-06-10
, 05:53
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Posts: 345 |
Thanked: 467 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Germany
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#22
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Originally Posted by ragnar
This sounds like you are suggesting to stop development around fremantle specifics until we see the final device. I was tempted to work around those limitations, but i'd really be pissed to see that all this effort was a waste of time if the final device comes out and things will actually be resolved by then.
Guys. Might I suggest continue this thread once you see the actual release and software and see what is there and what is not there and how things are solved. Really.
So the precise question here: Should developers work around those limitations now? Or should they stop working on issues related to the help system and the text selection because nokia will come up with updated sdks/apis once the devices are released.
I really REALLY don't want to spend too much time coding work-arounds if the missing functionality will re-appear magically in some months.
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2009-06-10
, 06:16
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#23
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Originally Posted by Master of Gizmo
No, I wasn't trying to suggest to stop development. I more like tried to say that don't jump into conclusions about whether something can be done or not based on some properties of some UI component. For instance, just quickly checking the specs there is a specified way to highlight text in the browser.
This sounds like you are suggesting to stop development around fremantle specifics until we see the final device. I was tempted to work around those limitations, but i'd really be pissed to see that all this effort was a waste of time if the final device comes out and things will actually be resolved by then.
So the precise question here: Should developers work around those limitations now? Or should they stop working on issues related to the help system and the text selection because nokia will come up with updated sdks/apis once the devices are released.
Looking at the bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4619 "Panning and scrollng are mutually exclusive" says exactly that. Comment #5 "I've been told that the pannableareas 'enabled' property can be used to switch between selection/pan mode." I'm no developer, but I read the bug that you can place a button in the UI to switch the property of that component. (Or does somebody read that in some other way?) In many/most cases you don't need to have text selection available, that's part of the reason why it's not universally available.
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2009-06-10
, 06:39
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Posts: 654 |
Thanked: 664 times |
Joined on Feb 2009
@ Germany
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#25
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As I reported the two mentioned bugs, I have to say: I don't like it too 
Here is another one which affects portrait mode:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4617
Well basically this mean that the usage of the portrait mode is not recommended and if you (as developer) want to use it, you'll have to write (mostly) a complete new UI. Then if you still want to maintain the Diablo version you have to maintain 3 more or less different UIs:
Diablo / Fremantle landscape / Fremantle portrait.
That's not fun at all and I can see how developers will drop support for Diablo quite quickly...
Not UI related, but another thing that wont get fixed in Fremantle:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2557
Here is another one which affects portrait mode:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4617
Well basically this mean that the usage of the portrait mode is not recommended and if you (as developer) want to use it, you'll have to write (mostly) a complete new UI. Then if you still want to maintain the Diablo version you have to maintain 3 more or less different UIs:
Diablo / Fremantle landscape / Fremantle portrait.
That's not fun at all and I can see how developers will drop support for Diablo quite quickly...
Not UI related, but another thing that wont get fixed in Fremantle:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2557
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2009-06-10
, 07:43
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Posts: 362 |
Thanked: 109 times |
Joined on May 2009
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#26
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Originally Posted by conny
Portrait mode is vital for a phone if N900 is a phone...
Here is another one which affects portrait mode:
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4617
Well basically this mean that the usage of the portrait mode is not recommended and if you (as developer) want to use it, you'll have to write (mostly) a complete new UI. Then if you still want to maintain the Diablo version you have to maintain 3 more or less different UIs:
Diablo / Fremantle landscape / Fremantle portrait.
That's not fun at all and I can see how developers will drop support for Diablo quite quickly...
First of all the T9 touch virtual keyboard should appear in portrait and all the applications should have support for portrait mode.
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2009-06-10
, 07:50
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Posts: 345 |
Thanked: 467 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Germany
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#27
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Originally Posted by ragnar
You are no developer, so i assume you are an ui designer. You basically say that you won't provide a generic solution to this, but instead want every developer to invent his own solution for this.
I'm no developer, but I read the bug that you can place a button in the UI to switch the property of that component.
I haven't seen yet how text selection works in the browser, but we can safely assume it's not the same button doing this in osso-xterm. And modest is imho dealing with this by trying to avoid text selection at all and using all kinds of "hyperlinks" wherever possible. Is that true?
These are three example handling text selection completely different. All those third party guys out there will also come up with their own ideas. The same will happen with the help systems. I am really concerned that this will result in too many completely different solutions addressing the same problem. This will confuse users and this is what gui frameworks are there: To give users a consistent ui.
I'd understand (albeit not appreciate) if you'd just remove those features and say "We don't want help systems nor text selection in fremantle ... period). But you say "We still want this, but we remove support from the frameworks and want individual solutions instead. I don't understand the idea behind this. Imho you are risking pretty inconsistent user interfaces this way.
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2009-06-10
, 09:32
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#28
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Hi, wouldn't it be better to have separate threads to discuss different topics?
I'm only speaking as a Maemo & Fremantle user here.
What are your experiences with Help systems in mobile devices?
In terms of text selection, Modest is more an exception than a norm because it still uses gtkhtml. So please don't make conclusions for the whole platform based on it.
Let's see this from a user point of view:
- The Maemo selecting behavior up to Diablo could be improved specially in scrollable areas, according to many sources e.g. this old bug. This justifies the action to change things in Fremantle, where scrolling and panning has a more important role.
- The Maemo browser has a specific gesture to activate text selection. Any application using the browser engine to render its own content can benefit from its gestures at will, including text selection.
- Text selection is not an issue in non-scrolling/panning areas. Developers can offer an interface where the user just needs to move his finger from beginning to end of the text selected.
What cases fall out of these two categories? Developers can still offer the change from pannable to selectable areas in one click. The assumption is that this separation will make life of users easier than in Diablo and previous versions.
Let's discuss examples of real applications, please. In which ones do you expect selecting text is going to be a problem?
I'm only speaking as a Maemo & Fremantle user here.
Originally Posted by Master of Gizmo
Have you used such Help in Maemo applications? I know I haven't. Even in my full GNOME desktop I have used the Help system only in few occasions after several years. The apps I use in Maemo tend to be self-explanatory. If I have questions I find the answers online.
It will not contain libosso-help anymore and thus won't have any central help system at all anymore. The idea is that every application now does its own help system however it wants. This is imho a very bad step backwards as it will just cause help systems to disappear
What are your experiences with Help systems in mobile devices?
The finger scrollable text windows (HildonPannableArea with GtkTextView inside) don't support text selection. Thus most applications like modest and e.g. the web browser won't allow to select text for copy'n paste (this is still possible using the cursor keys but only if the text is actually editable and has a visible cursor)
Let's see this from a user point of view:
- The Maemo selecting behavior up to Diablo could be improved specially in scrollable areas, according to many sources e.g. this old bug. This justifies the action to change things in Fremantle, where scrolling and panning has a more important role.
- The Maemo browser has a specific gesture to activate text selection. Any application using the browser engine to render its own content can benefit from its gestures at will, including text selection.
- Text selection is not an issue in non-scrolling/panning areas. Developers can offer an interface where the user just needs to move his finger from beginning to end of the text selected.
What cases fall out of these two categories? Developers can still offer the change from pannable to selectable areas in one click. The assumption is that this separation will make life of users easier than in Diablo and previous versions.
Let's discuss examples of real applications, please. In which ones do you expect selecting text is going to be a problem?
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2009-06-10
, 09:42
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#29
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Originally Posted by Bundyo
Can you list use cases for choosing files?
The file chooser dialog is really limited on screen estate. What should happen if an user has a folder with 1000 of files? Break his fingers or gain arthritis?
You might have 1000 songs or videos but you are supposed to browse them with your media player.
You might have 1000 images but you are supposed to browse them with your image viewer.
You might have 1000 files inside a single folder that are not songs, videos or images... what are they? Do you really have that? Going through 1000 files (and perhaps only 100 too) is going to be an unpleasant experience no matter how much real estate you have for that.
Regular desktops are minimizing the relevance of the file manager accessing the files you want from applications or global searches. I'd say file managers are even less relevant in mobile devices.
Do you think Maemo users start opening the File Manager to find something? What?
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2009-06-10
, 09:51
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#30
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Originally Posted by qgil
No, I am not supposed to browse them with my media player. I am supposed to open a file manager and see these 1000 songs, as files, copy them, delete them, rename, them, etc.
You might have 1000 songs or videos but you are supposed to browse them with your media player.
You might have 1000 images but you are supposed to browse them with your image viewer.
You might have 1000 files inside a single folder that are not songs, videos or images... what are they?
Do you really have that?
Going through 1000 files (and perhaps only 100 too) is going to be an unpleasant experience no matter how much real estate you have for that.
Regular desktops are minimizing the relevance of the file manager accessing the files you want from applications or global searches. I'd say file managers are even less relevant in mobile devices.
Do you think Maemo users start opening the File Manager to find something? What?