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qgil is offline qgil
2008-11-28 , 15:58
Posts: 3,105 | Thanked: 11,088 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)
#51
Originally Posted by Boke View Post
I'm ok if it's a won't fix in diablo and you fix it in fremantle, but if it's fixed, I'd like to know how it's fixed.
Then we should either release earlier (we are progressing on this) or discuss the bug later (which couldn't be worst in the past).

I know you've got an NDA on it so you can't comment much, but then, what's the point of marking it as fixed?
It's a way to show progress and discuss/concentrate on new things. A way to bypass that NDA. You don't know the energy it takes for people like ragnar or me to go through these things being able to mark as fixed/wontfix things that belong to unreleased releases.

Also by resolving bugs/requests we liberate votes that can be used to promote another bugs/requests undecided at the moment.


I like to see Bugzilla as a collaborative tool shared by developpers and users to exchange their views on some software.
Yes, I'm also advocating on this approach. For this to happen there must be a different expectation on what is open source and what is not, though. Demand explanations in whatever is open and let's move forward using the minimal extra energy in the rest.



Marking bugs as RESOLVED without telling anyone what you did to resolve it doesn't seem much interesting to me. Now the bug is not in the OPEN state anymore. So noone is supposed to be working on it anymore, while it's not fixed in Diablo. And noone will bother working on it, since there is a fix, in Fremantle.
As agreed with the Bugsquad team, bugs fixed means that there is code available (now internally, out soon). That code might be alpha, so there is still a lot of work to be done around it. Feature requests are resolved once they are roadmapped for a specific release, which means that they will happen (unless something weird happens) but most/all the work still needs to be done. This week I have ben resolving as fixed feature requests targeting Harmattan already. I think the information is useful.

I don't know... maybe it's a massive bug hunt that nokia is doing... but I don't get the point of it.[/QUOTE]
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Boke is offline Boke
2008-11-28 , 16:04
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#52
Just try to go toany other bugzilla outthere and mark a bug as resolved with the comment "Fixed in my branch" without providing any patch or info, and see the reaction.

It's basically the same here.

Quim, you're right when you say our objective is to get Fremantle in our hands, but you're wrong thinking that the way you bring it to us is even near the best one. If you don't want to work with bugzilla and hide everything until the release, just don't use bugzilla. If you want to work colaboratively with users and use bugzilla, you'd have to do it another way.

By the way, it's nice to see you working so hard on Fremantle.
Last edited by Boke; 2008-11-28 at 16:11.
 

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EIPI is offline EIPI
2008-11-28 , 16:05
Posts: 794 | Thanked: 784 times | Joined on Sep 2007 @ /Canada/Ontario/GTA
#53
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
I believe what we offer is near the best we can offer, considering all the conditions:

...

- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device". The goal is to bring the Fremantle fixes to your devices, then.

...

Most users filing bugs and posting in threads like this one do care about fixes, new features and updates. You will have Fremantle in your hands, that's your real objective.
Thank you for this reply, Quim. I look forward to any incarnation of Fremantle (community- or Nokia- sponsored) that makes it to my N800.

Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo View Post
Quim, there's this nifty organization out there called Debian. You should look it up someday.
I'm pretty sure Quim knows about Debian, since our OS's are Debian-based (last time I checked anyways)
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Last edited by EIPI; 2008-11-28 at 16:19. Reason: clarify
 
TA-t3 is offline TA-t3
2008-11-28 , 16:05
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#54
Just for the record: Even though I'm arguing for updates, there are updates and then there are updates.. I don't think it's fair to include things like agps/gps into the discussion, the gps situation is clearly hampered by substandard hardware and we can't complain if those kind of problems are moved forward to next gen. hardware+software.
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qgil is offline qgil
2008-11-28 , 16:23
Posts: 3,105 | Thanked: 11,088 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)
#55
Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo View Post
Quim, there's this nifty organization out there called Debian. You should look it up someday.
Thanks for the pointer. I became a Debian user in 2002. Nokia hired the first Debian maintainers to work on Maemo by 2005 or before.

Seriously, talk to them, they're doing all this stuff much better than you are - BECAUSE they've been through the whole iterative development, compatibility, testing, FREE (libre) releases for what, 15 years now? They know what doesn't work.
Debian can delay a release until they think it's ready (and compatibility plays a big role on that). Maemo cannot have such delays (and compatibility is one of the aspects that suffers).

Besides, Debian doesn't have to deal with any UI optimized for consumer mobile devices. The main options you have is Hildon (developed by Nokia) and perhaps something related to Qt (developed by the company that acquired Trolltech).

Please don't reinvent the wheel, or even pretend you're the first down this road.
Who reinvented or pretended anything?

Pretending that those wheels are just enough to move this mobile platform is not very useful. At least not for us. Debian has many merits and Nokia is supporting them to have more merits in this new mobile space as well.
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Boke is offline Boke
2008-11-28 , 16:24
Posts: 114 | Thanked: 50 times | Joined on Oct 2006
#56
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
It's a way to show progress and discuss/concentrate on new things. A way to bypass that NDA. You don't know the energy it takes for people like ragnar or me to go through these things being able to mark as fixed/wontfix things that belong to unreleased releases.
Actually, no, I don't know how much energy it takes. But I understood it was not easy. I wish you don't take my comments personally as I really appreciate that you're posting on this forum and using the bugzilla. It's more a rant about why it takes you so much energy while us users are only willing to help.
 

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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-11-28 , 16:29
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#57
Originally Posted by Boke View Post
If you don't want to work with bugzilla and hide everything until the release, just don't use bugzilla.
You weren't there for the two years they did that were you? Please, just stop talking.
 
BoxOfSnoo is offline BoxOfSnoo
2008-11-28 , 16:39
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#58
Originally Posted by EIPI View Post
I'm pretty sure Quim knows about Debian, since our OS's are Debian-based (last time I checked anyways)
Yeah I don't mean the software, I mean the *process*. In Debian, releases are nice but not critical, since you can always track a testing branch (extras is kind of a half release/half testing branch, but so restricted somehow that only a small number of programs seem to make it). Testing is wiiiiiiide open.

A third party like Ubuntu takes snapshots of Debian, polishes them up and releases them every 6 months (so it's possible). They'd be nowhere without the Debian base though.

I won't deny you're doing a lot of work, nor making any progress. It's just not working the Debian way. If so we'd have annoying UI bugs like https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2405 and https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3179 fixed by now.
 
Boke is offline Boke
2008-11-28 , 16:43
Posts: 114 | Thanked: 50 times | Joined on Oct 2006
#59
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
You weren't there for the two years they did that were you? Please, just stop talking.
Actually... I was there... I had a 770 in october 2006 and was looking to buy one from the beginning so I'm around since a long time. Not contributing doesn't mean not being aware.

In no way I want to go back to these days. It was only a way to ask them to use bugzilla a better way, the real way.

And please, hold your words, if we were face to face, you would never ever dare to roll eyes and tell me to "just stop talking". Thanks.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-11-28 , 16:46
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#60
Originally Posted by Boke View Post
In no way I want to go back to these days. It was only a way to ask them to use bugzilla a better way, the real way.
. . . and that's the direction we're working towards, but you solution seems to be 'don't use bugzilla at all until you're ready to use it 100% to my expectations' which is just silly.
 
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