Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software? - Page 19 - maemo.org

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fatalsaint	2010-09-27 , 03:23
Posts: 3,428 \| Thanked: 2,856 times \| Joined on Jul 2008	#181

Originally Posted by sela

I am afraid I still do not understand what you mean by that. It is mere semantics from the standpoint of the content creator/owner in what sense? Do you mean they are similar because both acts are considered a violation of the law?

Going back to the analogy I gave at a previous post: Slander and rape are both unlawful. Yet nobody would even consider saying that from the standpoint of the victim, the difference between them is only semantics.

He is saying from the perspective of the creator - it still feels as if you have stolen something from them. Even if it's not classified as "theft".

This whole slander/rape analogy is lost on me... they aren't remotely similar to theft/piracy.

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geohsia	2010-09-27 , 03:27
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#182

Originally Posted by Sopwith

I firmly believe that at some point within our lifetime guarding IP will become prohibitively expensive. So, for all of you pointing fingers, get off you high horses and realize how ridiculous your arguments will look when the current IP laws are discarded -- be it 5, 20, or 100 years from now. The ones that break those laws today may well be celebrated as revolutionaries tomorrow.

I refuse to cast a stone.

Interesting. I'd like to understand this new business model you mention. So you want artists and software developers to work for free. Would you like to work for free?

Maybe one day the earth will become like the "Star Trek Federation" where society did away with notions of individual wealth and everyone lived together in harmony sharing all they had and everyone worked in their jobs for no pay but because it was their duty in the new society.

I think you should be the first revolutionary and work for free. Be the example for the rest of us! :-)

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	silvermountain	2010-09-27 , 03:28
	Posts: 1,359 \| Thanked: 717 times \| Joined on May 2009 @ ...standing right behind you...	#183

Originally Posted by gerbick

So to be honest... in the past, yep. Did it. Now? For the last 12 years, I have not pirated software. Music though? Hell yeah... I have. But I also have an over 1000 CD collection that I purchased, and have been slowly transferring them to MP3's... so much so that I don't listen to what I stole while I was being stupid during my Napster days.

If you want the software, I'm quite sure there are SO MANY ways to legally get it. All you have to do sometimes is ask... surprising what it does for you.

a) Having thousands of CDs obviously doesn't justify stealing even one right so I'm not 100% sure on why bringing that up as an argument

b) And yes, of course there may well be options and all one has to do is ask - but the same was probably also the case when you pirated yourself. The point is, I don't see why people feel that they have this right to be SO hard on people pirating today (individuals or in general) - if they have done it themselves in the past. These people may well be in exactly the same 'phase' as you yourself were when you committed the same acts.

It's obviously possible that there is a fair level of projection/deflection going on as the issue hits so close to home.
Sad really.

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Last edited by silvermountain; 2010-09-27 at 03:30.

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geohsia	2010-09-27 , 03:40
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#184

Originally Posted by ndi

So that's why Picard kept saying replicated food never tasted like the original.

OTOH, end of world hunger. Solar powered sand to tasteless rice converter. OTOOH, nobody works any more.

Interesting fact, there is enough food in the world today so that everyone can get 3 square meals and be healthy. There is no need for replicators, simply a redistribution / sharing of resources.

If working for free and sharing is great for artists and software developers, why not extend that to all parts of society. No one should make any money and everything should be shared. The perfect world right?

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gerbick	2010-09-27 , 03:41
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Originally Posted by silvermountain

a) Having thousands of CDs obviously doesn't justify stealing even one right so I'm not 100% sure on why bringing that up as an argument

It's part of the following ideal... continue reading...

b) And yes, of course there may well be options and all one has to do is ask - but the same was probably also the case when you pirated yourself. The point is, I don't see why people feel that they have this right to be SO hard on people pirating today (individuals or in general) - if they have done it themselves in the past. These people may well be in exactly the same 'phase' as you yourself were when you committed the same acts.

I had to learn these things. Once I did, I didn't return to that life style. So I'm stating that my mistake shouldn't be their mistakes. It's called growth. Even idiots like me are capable of it.

It's obviously possible that there is a fair level of projection/deflection going on as the issue hits so close to home.
Sad really.

Some people learn, some people teach others of their mistakes with the hope they won't repeat them... some people justify each bad deed in their life... some people never ****ing grow.

I can hope that my attempt in becoming more adult about how I view things can help others.

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	silvermountain	2010-09-27 , 03:42
	Posts: 1,359 \| Thanked: 717 times \| Joined on May 2009 @ ...standing right behind you...	#186

Originally Posted by geohsia

You can disagree with someone without judging them.

That I agree with 100%. But when I read posts like "they can afford to buy McDonalds and beer but they pirate software" (not a direct quote) I find those comments to be very hypocritical if coming from someone who have pirated himself. Anyway, I think the discussion is rather circular and I got an early morning.

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	Sopwith	2010-09-27 , 03:47
	Posts: 337 \| Thanked: 283 times \| Joined on Nov 2009 @ NYC	#187

Originally Posted by geohsia

...
I think you should be the first revolutionary and work for free. Be the example for the rest of us! :-)

The product of my work is IP, and I voluntarily give away the copyright. Even more, it is in my best interest if anyone has free access to my works. I still do not work for free.

I did not say I have a complete business model where IP is free to everyone -- I merely pointed out that the current situation, where you can simply replicate your works and expect a return from each copy, has not been very long in existence, and will likely not remain much longer in existence.

Earlier on this thread, others gave good examples of professions that stopped being profitable. I am sorry to repeat that, but those who solely rely on selling IP may be practicing such a profession.

A minor note -- I don't understand why you should use Star Treck as an example -- we have a good example here on Earth, it's called Communism, and we all know how that went. I am not suggesting we try that, I am suggesting though that the economy laws of capitalism will likely do away with IP, so that Capitalism can develop further.

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geohsia	2010-09-27 , 05:01
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#188

Originally Posted by silvermountain

That I agree with 100%. But when I read posts like "they can afford to buy McDonalds and beer but they pirate software" (not a direct quote) I find those comments to be very hypocritical if coming from someone who have pirated himself. Anyway, I think the discussion is rather circular and I got an early morning.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong. Would you say an ex-alcoholic can't tell a current alcoholic not to drink? An ex-drug user can't tell a current drug user that they should avoid drugs? Maybe only a perfect parent can tell their kids not to do bad things, and parents who made mistakes in the past have to keep their mouths shut.

Feel free to address the point of the argument and not skirt the issue. Most students call themselves poor but somehow is able to find money to buy gadgets, fast food and beer (for those that drink). Strange that when it comes to software their bank account is 0. You don't find that convenient or odd?

And by the way, I bought PKZip when I was in college, including Windows, Office and AutoCad 9(before they came out with student bundles). Cost me a lot but I was an engineer and wanted to work from home instead of being in lab all night. I chose to eat out less and didn't buy clothes all of the time and I saved until I had enough. So yeah, it can be done.

I pirated when I was in elementary school and the teacher said it was ok to copy software and so we shared among friend not knowing the difference.

Last edited by geohsia; 2010-09-27 at 05:33.

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geohsia	2010-09-27 , 05:16
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#189

Originally Posted by Sopwith

The product of my work is IP, and I voluntarily give away the copyright. Even more, it is in my best interest if anyone has free access to my works. I still do not work for free.

You want music and software to be free. How will they get paid, by ads? Is that the direction you want to go?

Originally Posted by Sopwith

I did not say I have a complete business model where IP is free to everyone -- I merely pointed out that the current situation, where you can simply replicate your works and expect a return from each copy, has not been very long in existence, and will likely not remain much longer in existence.

Fair enough. Until you come up with this new revolutionary model, why don't we stick with the current one. But feel free to give whatever you want away fro free and show us the way.

Originally Posted by Sopwith

Earlier on this thread, others gave good examples of professions that stopped being profitable. I am sorry to repeat that, but those who solely rely on selling IP may be practicing such a profession.

There certainly is a shift. Newspapers are going away while cable news is going strong. Is that a good thing? It's certainly different.

Originally Posted by Sopwith

A minor note -- I don't understand why you should use Star Treck as an example -- we have a good example here on Earth, it's called Communism, and we all know how that went. I am not suggesting we try that, I am suggesting though that the economy laws of capitalism will likely do away with IP, so that Capitalism can develop further.

Interesting, so a drug company spends millions if not billions on a new cancer drug and someone can just copy it for free and resell it at a cheaper price? In the future I can just copy the iPhone.Next and sell it under my name? Sounds convenient for the knock-off market but kinda punishes the innovators, no?

Last edited by geohsia; 2010-09-27 at 05:49.

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sela	2010-09-27 , 07:06
Posts: 46 \| Thanked: 41 times \| Joined on Jun 2010	#190

Originally Posted by fatalsaint

He is saying from the perspective of the creator - it still feels as if you have stolen something from them. Even if it's not classified as "theft".
similar to theft/piracy.

Not so sure about that. Does it really feel as if I have stolen something from them? If someone steals my CD, I can feel the CD missing from my bag. If I am a recording artist and somebody copied my CD from a friend, I may have lost some potential revenue from not buying my CD (which he may or may not have done if he did not have any way of copying the disk).

People are using the word "steal" in many different contexts. People may complain that someone "stole their idea", for example, even though an idea alone is not a protected IP at all. A shop owner may complain that his new competitor across the street "steals" customers from him. And by the same token, you can claim these actions are too similar to theft from their perspective. Yet, their property rights were not violated in any of these cases, only their expectations.

Last edited by sela; 2010-09-27 at 07:08.