Given the iPhone came out 2+ years later then the N770 it should better it in many many ways! But until the iPhone is *truely* open, it won't have a place for many people like me. (And I'm not talking about a promise of an SDK and developer verification).

I have several friends with iPhones. I agree the accellerated UI is slick, and out of the box it does have better apps. But after a couple of weeks of Coverflow, *****ing about the Edge network, and Jailbreaking they do lust after what the N8X0's have openly available. Rhapsody, VOIP, OpenVPN, Subversion, Claws, MicroB, MaemoMapper etc.

Hardware-wise there are some things also.

a) The screen. 800x480 is a lot different then 480x320. I've pinched and squeezed enough to know that more reslution is always better in this respect.

b) Video cam. Nokia certainly fumbled with this to start, but it finally sounds like we're getting some support. (At least H263 over SIP which is fine with me to start ) If they continue working on this and combine it with a user friendly service, that alone would make it "the" unit for some people. For now even using Motion to make the N800 into a quick wireless webcam is very slick.

c) And now the hardware keypad, which many people consider a top priority.

Now Nokia just needs to concentrate on some fantastic video drivers with truely optimized 2d/3d accelleration. Then just let the "community" make coverflow 2.0

Of course I agree with you though, people should try them both. But more then that, make a list of what you really want to do with a mobile net device. For me that makes it a no brainer.

I agree that inertial/momentum finger scrolling would go a long way to improve the finger parts of the Nokia UI

Actually, on my N800, I get pretty fast scrolling from the d-pad. MUCH faster than finger scrolling or stylus scrolling. Just hold it down, and watch the web page whiz bye.

I don't have much of a problem with the Nokia here. Could it be better? sure. Is it inadequate now? no.

Perhaps the N800 is better than 770 on this, but I find that I like the N800's finger keyboard more and more. The only thing I do NOT like about it is that it gets in teh way of seeing the underlying application. Otherwise, I like it a lot.

When I used the iPhone in the store, with its on-screen keyboard, I hated it. No where near as comfortable nor accurate, for me, as the N800's full screen keyboard.


After what Apple has done, and after how great the N800 is, Apple would really have to perform some major coup to get me back. The iPhone and the iPod Touch just aren't worth my money. They don't do what I need (without risking bricking your phone) ... that might change in February, but at this point it's too little too late. Merely finally releasing a native toolkit, this late in the game, wont win me back.

But, then, I'm still trying to figure out just how annoyed by the N810 I am. If the next IT has some more of those annoyance factors AND Apple pulls their heads out of their butts, maybe I will go back. Most likely, though, both camps will annoy me, so as long as Nokia's new designs annoy me less than Apple's attitudes, I'll probably stay with the Nokia ITs.

I havn't gone through this whole thread so someone might have typed my exact words already.

In my opinion the onscreen keyboard would have been good enough for a device of this size. I don't think one will be touch typing with this one. It probably won't work very well to have the N810 lying flat on a table and typing on it. If one could pull out the keyboard and fold screen/keyboard 45 degrees it might be better.

But then this would be trying to make it into a minilaptop, and this is a tablet...

With a few software changes the virtual keyboard could have been a bit better.

I'd like to see a DVD box sized little cheap N810 spec. laptop (which runs Maemo) with a good keyboard (the DVD box size would allow one to use both hands effectively while typing).

In addition one would be able to fold the unit 365degrees, either to laptop mode or tablet mode.

I dare you, grab a DVD box and play with it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this device is for laying flat on the table and typing. I think it's intended to be at thumb keyboard used in the same fashion as a T-Mobile Sidekick or MDA or Wing. You hold and type on it in much the same manner as you would the N800's full screen keyboard, except that the screen is above your thumbs instead of under them.

I think a lot about ergonomics, and even though the N810 is warming up for me the more I think about it (I don't have a huge investment in SD cards, so why not buy a MicroSD->MiniSD adaptor and standardize on MicroSD cards now? things like that), there are still some real design concerns I have about the N810.

The Dpad placement on the N800 is ergonomically ideal. The base of both thumbs hold the N800 against the ring and pinky fingers. The tip of the left thumb then rests easily on the Dpad. It doesn't have to extend/stretch down to use the Dpad (as it will on the N810), and it doesn't have to flex excessively (as it does when using the escape/menu/home button on the N800).

The best way I can see to address the ergonomics of the thumb placement, in a device as small as the N800 and N810, is to:

1) put the d-pad in the upper left, as on the N800
2) put the escape/menu/home buttons in the upper right, where the Nokia logo is on the N800 and N810 (move the Nokia logo to the bottom center, at the lower edge of the screen)
3) do not have the side-bars slide with the screen. Look at the new Motorola Sidekick Slide for what I mean here (or the Sony Viao UX, or the chinese prototype red linux umpc). Only the screen slides up, to reveal the keyboard, while the places you grip the device remain stationary.
4) slightly divide the keyboard, and separate the two halves, the exact placement being made for ideal thumb reach. Make sure neither thumb has to excessively stretch to each the center of the keyboard (left thumb for the G key, right thumb for the H key), but also so that neither has to excessively flex to reach the edges of the keyboard (left thumb A, right thumb semi-colon).
5) I'm not sure if the right/best place to put the chat cam is between the two keyboard halves, or at the top center edge of the sliding screen section (sort of where the Macs put their chat cams). The light sensor probably should go at the top center, whether the cam is there or not.

I have NO doubt that if Nokia does an actual formal usability study comparing this layout to the N810, that his layout will be far better. It might mean going back to the slightly longer form factor of the N800, but I think the ergonomic win would certainly justify it.

Add in a tilt for the screen (that can be tilted even if you don't slide the screen, then you don't need an integrated stand), and you've got a very compelling design.

Yeah, I'd prefer if the full screen keyboard still allowed you to see part of the application, the way the stylus keyboard does. Sure, it'd be a tiny part of the screen, but it would feel more like live input than what you do now.

If they're going to make a larger device, then I don't want to see a micro-laptop. As much as I have some like for the idea of a "laptop in my pocket", even if it's my jacket cargo pocket, having the keyboard at the lower edge of your device isn't really a good idea.

If they go to a bit larger form factor (esp. if they do it as a second product line; lets call it a "Nokia UMPC" in contrast to the "Nokia Internet Tablet"), then I want to see a form factor like the PepperPad and Samsung Q1/Q2. This design really embraces the ideal thumb positions for the integrated keyboards. The left half of the qwerty keyboard is in the upper left part of the device, the right half of the qwerty keyboard is in the upper right part of the device, with the touch screen being between them. The Dpad is slightly below the one of the two keyboard halves and the other special buttons are below the other keyboard half.

If Nokia makes an UMPC, that's what I'd like to see. Unfortunately, I don't think you can comfortably make a tablet with that arrangement. The WiBrain, I think, is trying to do it ... and it's REALLY long (9 inches I think?). I just don't think it'd work for the intended size class of the 770/N800/N810 devices.

That said, I WOULD like to see Nokia go into that product space. But only after the "5th step" in the 770/N800/N810 is finished, and only with caution (don't bet the farm/company stability on it). But having a "nokia umpc" that 's fully compatible with the "nokia internet tablets", but with more expandability (video out, more USB options, etc.), larger screen, more battery life, and more storage/memory would be a nice product to see. As with the other UMPCs, cell radio could be omitted: you could use the Internet Tablet as your tether, if the 5th step in that series includes a cell radio. That way the two products work together.

Or...wait another 7 months and it'll drop in price

personally, i feel like the n810 is the culmination of all those surveys they had asked us 770 users and then sent their designers to go and build a better tablet. Of course, they forgot to look at how the market had shifted with the proliferation of HTC products and Apple's UI advancements. Which makes the n810 seem half-baked still. Just like all the tablets beforehand. I bought the 770 when it first came out because there was nothing else on the market that could compete with it right out of the box. This is not true this time around.

Yeah, doing that on the 770 worked very well, I could sometimes do it very fast, ratatatatataa.

I wonder how well it would work with a semi-transparent full screen keyboard.

I'd like a micro-laptop and was glad to see that Palm Foleo... And a bit sad after they canceled it after all the flame it got on engaget.com or something...

So, continuing on my vision of a DVD sized micro laptop that you can fold 365degrees... -> you would also be able to do detach the screen and keyboard from each other! And they'd talk to each other in bluetooth or something....

Just had an interesting thought for the placement of the dpad and button cluster.

1) intead of having a big panel on the back of the device that you remove for dealing with the battery, have a smaller panel on the left&back of the device for sliding the battery in and out.
2) in the center of the back of the device, have a slightly recessed dpad (recessed so that it doesn't get triggered by having the device lay on the table) in reach of the left index finger. Perhaps have the "select" button be reached/used by the left middle finger.
3) within reach of the right index finger and right middle finger, put the button cluster (escape/menu/home and maybe fourth application specific button)
4) use side bars that are as narrow as the N810, but have them be stationary as I suggested in my last message. (so only the screen slides, like with a Sidekick Slide)
5) still need to decide where to put the camera

So, that gets you the smaller profile of the N810, without sacrificing ergonomics.

I'm not sure if this design (I'll call "dpad/buttons on the back") is going to be better or worse than my previous post ("dpad/buttons at the thumbs"), but I _am_ sure that it will get better usability ratings than the N810.

why not use the space on the right side for the dpad. Then the keyboard can be full size also. That would have been the best option

The response to that I've seen has been that most people are right handed and will have the stylus in that hand-- so in that context dpad on the left makes sense.

Personally, I'd like to see an ambidextrous device...