Poll: N900 vs Milestone
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N900 vs Milestone

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#311
damn. the two things i like from droid are pinch to zoom and popup onscreen keyboard.
 
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#312
Originally Posted by christexaport View Post
Symbian is about as dead as any OS that owns half of the market. I have to call some of the shadetree analysts out. You can't quote singular analyst reports and news headlines as reliable sources. It takes heavy scrutinization of the data and a knowledge of the markets across the globe to get it right.

It took Apple's record-breaking growth for two straight years to get just ~15% of the global smartphone market. In one year, Android has a huge ~5%. At that pace, and with Symbian able to hold its 50% share, and a new UI coming soon, and with the fifth most visible brand in the world behind it, and with African, Indian, and Asian markets loving it (besides the US, those are the main growth markets for mobiles), and with a mature core, I wish the competitors luck.

The fact of the matter is that outside of the US market, Android and the iPhone are minor players. They're heavily leveraged in the US, and a disruption like a new Symbian on carrier shelves alonside a new WInMo could have an effect on the both OSes.

Maemo can't replace Symbian, nor can iPhone. It won't run on the cheap hardware needed in the developing markets of Asia, Africa, and India. Its a strictly high end offering. We're geeks, but not everyone can afford a $500-700 device. Symbian is too versatile and expensive to be ditched.

The issue is product development. Carriers, ODMs, OEMs, etc. can't waste budgets making devices for an OS that will be revamped soon, so only the incumbents, Nokia, Samsung, and SE, are making devices now. Once Symbian^4 is hardened, more device manufacturers will join in making hardware, and we'll see the same growth we see in Android with Symbian^4, and not starting at 0%, but at 30-40% marketshare.

So while Andriod is battling WinMo, RIM, and the iPhone, Symbian will reconquer the world. Maemo may take some of the traditonal Symbian ground, but both will eat at the competition, while complimenting each other. Symbian isn't going anywhere, but will be a conduit for Maemo devs to sell code.
Christexaport is on the ball here. I dont understand any of the market opinion that Symbian has no future. I also think that Nokia have been a lot smarter than any of the nay sayers have us believe. The issue for them is not about iPhone or Android growth in the high end (yes you cant deny what's happening there), but how do they maintain a revenue stream that is impressive any way you measure it. Its easy for us sitting outside of the boardroom to tell them to jump ship, kill it, move one, but I bet if anyone of you were in that boardroom you would not take the risk.

Compare and contrast this with the VW Golf or Toyota Corolla. pretty boring for sports cars enthusiasts, but you don't mess with a seller.

Just look at how the E71 has over taken the blackberries, the E72 will be a big hit. The N96 is a top notch candybar and they WILL sell shed loads of X6s and N97 minis and the open sourcing of Symbian is already bringing more OEMs on board.

What Nokia have done is to maintain that revenue stream, while introducing Maemo to take on the high end, and to bring on Qt to build out the apps ecosystem. Both Maemo and Symbian will benefit as a result.

And just to close on the subject of this thread. Why the N900 because the N900 will benefit from the huge vol of symbian devices that are already out there and will continue to be out there as Nokia's plan plays out in 2010.

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#313
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Nokia should just kill Symbian and move on. People need to stop caricaturing the arguments of others, when disagreeing with them.

I do think Symbian will be increasingly demoted to the lower end of Nokia's product line and occupy the space of what was formerly feature phones and slowly be replaced. It will die a slow death.

Here's two articles about the Symbian Exchange and Exposition tradeshow that just happened:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technol...5875-21777860/
http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=20916

They both talk about how the mood was down. Developers are jumping ship for the iPhone and Android. Many complain Symbian is harder to develop for. Orders for applications on Symbian are drying up. Samsung and Sony-Ericsson are moving away from Symbian.

One developer even uses the "die" word himself: "I think Symbian is far behind…If there is no change in user friendliness, and opening of the environment, I think it will die – they have to react."

The only people who are positive are the Symbian foundation people and the Nokia marketing people, who of course have to be positive. Saying things like Symbian has an advantage because it was the first smartphone platform, as if because it was first means it can't die.
 

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#314
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Nokia should just kill Symbian and move on. People need to stop caricaturing the arguments of others, when disagreeing with them.

I do think Symbian will be increasingly demoted to the lower end of Nokia's product line and occupy the space of what was formerly feature phones and slowly be replaced. It will die a slow death.

Here's two articles about the Symbian Exchange and Exposition tradeshow that just happened:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technol...5875-21777860/
http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=20916

They both talk about how the mood was down. Developers are jumping ship for the iPhone and Android. Many complain Symbian is harder to develop for. Orders for applications on Symbian are drying up. Samsung and Sony-Ericsson are moving away from Symbian.

One developer even uses the "die" word himself: "I think Symbian is far behind…If there is no change in user friendliness, and opening of the environment, I think it will die – they have to react."

The only people who are positive are the Symbian foundation people and the Nokia marketing people, who of course have to be positive. Saying things like Symbian has an advantage because it was the first smartphone platform, as if because it was first means it can't die.
Symbian will die ?

Not a chance.

FYI Symbian is not s60 - I cannot believe how people that should know better keep making this mistake. Please try and do some research - Symbian OS micro-kernel is still the most fit for purpose out there. I will go out on a limb and say it multi-tasks more efficiently than all the other mostly Linux based competitors out there thanks to Demand paging technique. The webOs, Android, jailbroken iPhone multitasking saps battery like mad and the jury is still out on Maemo but I doubt it will do much better in this department.

The E71 for example is known to go for days without needing a charge. My 5800 keeps going - I've been listening to podcasts for a while, the browser is running in the background, made some calls etc but battery indicator unmoved.

Practically speaking, I can use Nimbuzz to make Skype calls and then keep it in the background to receive calls without a big hit on battery life - the great and illustrous iPod touch / iPhone OS cannot do this. Symbian is also unmatched in the PIM department. As for the 'apps' craze, we all know that this is such a fad and only those who are unaware of the promise of HTML5, WebGL etc are carried away by it. There is really only one killer app you need, the browser. Anyway for Symbian, there's QT for that.

It also scales well. Lets see webOs, OSX, Maemo, Android run efficiently on low powered hardware like my Nokia 5800.

At the end of the day, Symbian will remain dominant (NOKIA gets it) and with improvements to its communication architecture (freeway etc) and the impressive screenplay technology, QT, QTOrbit, ability to run on SMP arch (ARM cortex A5 / Mali) and not to forget its very open philosophy.



Please try and do some reading and face reality

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...ase_plans-.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EKA2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbwYrilwZqg

http://developer.symbian.org/wiki/in..._-_online_book

Last edited by Enyibinakata; 2009-10-30 at 11:20. Reason: typos and add more facts
 

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#315
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Nokia should just kill Symbian and move on...I do think Symbian will be increasingly demoted to the lower end of Nokia's product line and occupy the space of what was formerly feature phones and slowly be replaced. It will die a slow death.
Basically, I agree. Although christexaport made some good points about a Symbian rejuvenation, I gotta think it will only make Symbian a better OS for it's old age and slow demise. Not because it has no real value, not through any particular fault in Symbian or an evil scheme, but because improvements in hardware will render it obsolete in a few years.

IOW, he's right that presently Maemo only can run well on expensive, high-end hardware. It's a powerful OS. But today's killer hardware is tomorrow's low-end hardware. It happens pretty quickly. 5 years ago the Razr was introduced as a $500 wonder of miniaturization. In a few years when Maemo happily runs on a $50 unit, there just won't be much need for Symbian. Nokia can then simplify their efforts to a single Maemo platform (likely a few versions for running different levels of hardware) and let go of Symbian. It may still survive as a open source OS for what by then would be considered low-end phones, but probably not much else.

I've never owned a Symbian phone so that possible outcome doesn't bother me. Maemo/Linux is so powerful and adaptable it seems clearly more capable of growing along with future technology so I see such an outcome as a Good Thing. But I can understand it might bring some sadness to longtime old-school Symbian people. Some Windoze users still wish for a DOS comeback too. Sometimes ya just gotta move on...
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#316
Originally Posted by Enyibinakata View Post
At the end of the day, Symbian will remain dominant (NOKIA gets it) and with improvements to its communication architecture (freeway etc) and the impressive screenplay technology, QT, QTOrbit, ability to run on SMP arch (ARM cortex A5 / Mali) and not to forget its very open philosophy.
Plenty of fancy acronyms.The articles were not about technical issues, they were about enthusiasm at trade fairs and developer interest. I found it very fascinating to see that trade fair behavior corresponds to general "street level" feeling so well. Frankly I would've expected the Symbian gatherings to be more lively than the descriptions say. The poster even made a point of saying that "he doesn't believe anybody is claiming Symbian will die fast", yet you jumped down his throat for posting pretty interesting articles.

To many users (me included), Symbian is the most boring of these systems. Like the poster said, it doesn't mean that Nokia will stop selling Symbian phones or that Symbian marketshare will plummet in a year. Nobody claimed that. I found the articles highly interesting as they seem to show that developer / Symbian community moods are, in fact, tied to the general "word on the street" moods. It's been years since anybody I know has been truly excited about a Nokia phone they have, the N900 is the first in a long time to generate some sort of a "buzz".

By the way, none of this has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, but oh well, most of this thread hasn't.
 

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#317
Originally Posted by Crashdamage View Post
Basically, I agree. Although christexaport made some good points about a Symbian rejuvenation, I gotta think it will only make Symbian a better OS for it's old age and slow demise. Not because it has no real value, not through any particular fault in Symbian or an evil scheme, but because improvements in hardware will render it obsolete in a few years.

IOW, he's right that presently Maemo only can run well on expensive, high-end hardware. It's a powerful OS. But today's killer hardware is tomorrow's low-end hardware. It happens pretty quickly. 5 years ago the Razr was introduced as a $500 wonder of miniaturization. In a few years when Maemo happily runs on a $50 unit, there just won't be much need for Symbian. Nokia can then simplify their efforts to a single Maemo platform (likely a few versions for running different levels of hardware) and let go of Symbian. It may still survive as a open source OS for what by then would be considered low-end phones, but probably not much else.

I've never owned a Symbian phone so that possible outcome doesn't bother me. Maemo/Linux is so powerful and adaptable it seems clearly more capable of growing along with future technology so I see such an outcome as a Good Thing. But I can understand it might bring some sadness to longtime old-school Symbian people. Some Windoze users still wish for a DOS comeback too. Sometimes ya just gotta move on...
improvement in hardware will render Symbian obsolete ?

Oh dear you just dont get it do you. Its about Scalability - Symbian can operate across the spectrum. You should check out the Samsung i8910HD yes it supports HD video capture. Consider the Sony SATIO, it supports a 12Megapixel camera and they both run Symbian. The SATIO uses the same CPU as n900 and iPhone.

If these are not high end hardware by todays standard, please enlighten me and tell me what is.

Please be reasonable, and do some basic research before jumping on a bandwagon. The Linux kernel for all the hype is monolithic - even Linus Tovarlds fully considers it bloated. Symbian OS is a micro/nano kernel and is more fit for purpose in this context. Instead of wasting time here, try and read Andrew Tanenbaum's book on OS design.

NOKIA obviously know better than us all - which is why they'll keep Symbian as their flagship OS. I love Maemo, but its there to tide NOKIA over until Symbian^4 is released.

http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/m...ype=prd_detail

http://www.gsmarena.com/sony_ericsso...ou%29-2683.php


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EKA2

Last edited by Enyibinakata; 2009-10-30 at 12:04. Reason: typo
 
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#318
Originally Posted by Enyibinakata View Post
Symbian will die ?

Not a chance.

FYI Symbian is not s60 - I cannot believe how people that should know better keep making this mistake. Please try and do some research - Symbian OS micro-kernel is still the most fit for purpose out there. I will go out on a limb and say it multi-tasks more efficiently than all the other mostly Linux based competitors out there thanks to Demand paging technique. The webOs, Android, jailbroken iPhone multitasking saps battery like mad and the jury is still out on Maemo but I doubt it will do much better in this department.

The E71 for example is known to go for days without needing a charge. My 5800 keeps going - I've been listening to podcasts for a while, the browser is running in the background, made some calls etc but battery indicator unmoved.

...
You are making the classic mistake of assuming that the technically or conceptually superior product (at least in your opinion) will be the one to do the best in the marketplace. I guess this is why Windows has 90% marketshare? Or why Internet Explorer 6.0 continues to be the most widely used browser? Or why Toyota only managed to pass GM, as the largest auto maker, in January 2009? Becuase I guess up until January 2009 GM made better cars?

Originally Posted by Enyibinakata
Oh dear you just dont get it do you. Its about Scalability - Symbian can operate across the spectrum. You should check out the Samsung i8910HD yes it supports HD video capture. Consider the Sony SATIO, it supports a 12Megapixel camera and they both run Symbian. The SATIO uses the same CPU as n900 and iPhone.
That's wonderful. But if you had actually read the articles I'd posted or even read my post closely, you would have seen that one of the things these articles mentioned is that Samsung and Sony-Ericsson are purportedly moving away from Symbian.

Basically you're making arguments about how great Symbian is, which is not necessarily the same question of whether or not it will survive in the market and what direction it's marketshare is heading in. You're confusing technical questions for business ones; they can be connected, but they don't have to be.

Last edited by cb474; 2009-10-30 at 12:40.
 
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#319
Originally Posted by Enyibinakata View Post
improvement in hardware will render Symbian obsolete ?

Oh dear you just dont get it do you.
I think you don't quite get what I was saying. I said there was not Symbian's fault, that there was nothing really 'wrong' with it.

My point is as hardware improves, Maemo/Linux will run on nearly anything. More and more users will expect a more 'desktop' type of experience. This will include such things as, for example, drivers for most printers included so they can print to bluetooth-enabled printers from the phone. Maemo is better suited for a general-purpose 'desktop' pocket computer. Symbian is, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, better suited to more specialized duties. The 'bloated' monolithic Linux kernel vs the Symbian micro/nano kernel, everything you might need vs only what you need, or IOW, a pocket computer (Maemo) vs a smartphone (Symbian).

NOKIA obviously know better than us all - which is why they'll keep Symbian as their flagship OS. I love Maemo, but its there to tide NOKIA over until Symbian^4 is released.
What I'm saying above is what Nokia 'gets'. The pocket desktop computer is the future. Why else would they spend the time and money on Maemo and introduce it as their new high-end OS? (They did, ya know.) Maemo is a very long detour to be only around to tide them over to Symbian^4. If Symbian was still the future, why not keep it simple and put those resources into speeding up the release Symbian^4?

I'll check out all the links you gave later - I gotta get to work. Maybe they'll change my mind.
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#320
Originally Posted by Crashdamage View Post

My point is as hardware improves, Maemo/Linux will run on nearly anything. More and more users will expect a more 'desktop' type of experience. This will include such things as, for example, drivers for most printers included so they can print to bluetooth-enabled printers from the phone. Maemo is better suited for a general-purpose 'desktop' pocket computer. Symbian is, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, better suited to more specialized duties. The 'bloated' monolithic Linux kernel vs the Symbian micro/nano kernel, everything you might need vs only what you need, or IOW, a pocket computer (Maemo) vs a smartphone (Symbian).

What I'm saying above is what Nokia 'gets'. The pocket desktop computer is the future. Why else would they spend the time and money on Maemo and introduce it as their new high-end OS? (They did, ya know.)
I wonder if your arguments about Maemo vs. Symbian also perhaps apply to Android and the iPhoneOS. I know that Android has a lot of room for growth and development, but I can't help feeling that the whole constraints of the java-layer thing were determined by the smartphone concept and technology ca. 2007.

As pocket computers get cheaper, powerful, and ubiquitous, people are going to want the power and flexibility they've come to expect in desktop computers (including the ability to run and port programs written in a variety of languages). Maemo is well poised to take advantage of the pocket computer model. I wonder whether the tightly controlled, "single language" environments of Android and iPhoneOS and PalmPre will come to seem outdated in five years. Perhaps Maemo is showing us the future high-end, while Android and iPhoneOS are the future mid- to low- range (i.e., what Symbian is today).

Last edited by mdl; 2009-10-30 at 13:22.
 

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