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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (6)
to General by Kalatti - 5 days, 20 hrs ago - more...
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2013-06-02
, 01:55
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Posts: 54 |
Thanked: 47 times |
Joined on Dec 2012
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#22
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Google's failure on xmpp wasn't because other players weren't open enough.
It was because they didn't play dirty.
From my "normal-friends", almost no one uses gtalk
Their transition was hotmail -> facebook. Some don't even check their email anymore.
Most of them don't have google accounts configured on their androids
Google use a imessage-watsapp approach.
Make dirty easy unverified Google accounts on first phone boot:
Require Only: Alias, Name, Mobile number, password, EULA.
Second page, with Synchronization options all enabled by default.
All the other information could be added in other moment.
Then send a confirmation sms, with an activation link.
Then synchronize gcontacts by phone number.
Even if they don't know that gtalk exists in their phone, some of their contacts will talk to them through it. Eventually they will realize of its existence.
By the way... I don't think google will really pull the plug from xmpp... Today I can still federate from gtalk, and send invitations to gtalk users from outside networks.
It was because they didn't play dirty.
From my "normal-friends", almost no one uses gtalk
Their transition was hotmail -> facebook. Some don't even check their email anymore.
Most of them don't have google accounts configured on their androids
Google use a imessage-watsapp approach.
Make dirty easy unverified Google accounts on first phone boot:
Require Only: Alias, Name, Mobile number, password, EULA.
Second page, with Synchronization options all enabled by default.
All the other information could be added in other moment.
Then send a confirmation sms, with an activation link.
Then synchronize gcontacts by phone number.
Even if they don't know that gtalk exists in their phone, some of their contacts will talk to them through it. Eventually they will realize of its existence.
By the way... I don't think google will really pull the plug from xmpp... Today I can still federate from gtalk, and send invitations to gtalk users from outside networks.
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2013-06-02
, 02:00
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Posts: 1,298 |
Thanked: 2,277 times |
Joined on May 2011
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#23
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Originally Posted by Scorpius
As I wrote before - this is not true. If these people already handle tons of different clients, they can handle another one if they care about communicating with you. If they don't care about communicating with you, then why does it bother you at all?
I would like to see you telling to your 15 years old daughter to install whatever XMPP software you can buy for her iPhone and tell her that's what she's gonna use to talk to you.
Same for the wife. Same for the cool (not geek) friends. It's just absurd.
Originally Posted by Scorpius
You are contradicting yourself. There is no one standard. There are many incompatible closed networks. And there is an open one - XMPP.
I'm not against open IM protocols, but I have to admit there is a STANDARD right now. The open email protocol is the standard for it and we should thank God it is, but the standard for IM right now is not XMPP. It must be Skype, or WhatsApp.
And I agree with others here who said that it's because people aren't principled enough and tolerate this idiocy, IM services get away with this. Since you are OK with this mess and call it "easier life", these companies are OK with keeping this mess around. Principled people tell them no.
Originally Posted by xvan
Gtalk still federates with external XMPP servers (for now). But their Hangout server - doesn't. And Google is not kind enough to warn their users when they push that new option on them.
By the way... I don't think google will really pull the plug from xmpp... Today I can still federate from gtalk, and send invitations to gtalk users from outside networks.
Last edited by shmerl; 2013-06-02 at 02:11.
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2013-06-02
, 02:09
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Posts: 1,298 |
Thanked: 2,277 times |
Joined on May 2011
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#24
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Originally Posted by anthonie
Where do you propose to place this thread? I started it in off-topic since I wasn't sure where to place it.
Why is this thread in offtopic?
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2013-06-02
, 08:32
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Posts: 1,048 |
Thanked: 1,127 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Amsterdam
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#25
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Originally Posted by shmerl
I think this topic on xmpp is actually worth a serious discussion, so I would say "General" or so. I was mainly surprised to see so many offtopics on Jolla placed all over TMO, only to find an interesting discussion buried away in offtopic.
Where do you propose to place this thread? I started it in off-topic since I wasn't sure where to place it.
__________________
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download free linux books
online linux guides
download n900: service manual level 1-4
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2013-06-02
, 09:39
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Posts: 479 |
Thanked: 1,284 times |
Joined on Jan 2012
@ Enschede, The Netherlands
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#26
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Originally Posted by Scorpius
If easier life is your only goal, then yes, perhaps going with the flow would be the wise thing to do. It will come at a cost, however, which I find too expensive.
And that's why Bill Gates life is easier than Linus Torvalds life
You assume that "we" would only accept open source. Well, as for me, that's not true. I do prefer open source, but if that doesn't provide what I need, I will pay for closed source. In fact, until recently I used (and payed for) Windows 7. The thing that made me switch was the ever increasing height of the walls around the windows garden and Windows 8, which showed me Microsoft is going in the same ultra-closed direction as Apple, for financial gains. And the Metro GUI is just stupid.
But while I find open source "preferred, but optional", I find open protocols and formats a much higher requirement where interoperability is a concern.
You're not much older than I, so apparently I "grew up" in a different direction.
Last edited by Fuzzillogic; 2013-06-02 at 10:33.
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2013-06-02
, 11:38
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Posts: 104 |
Thanked: 58 times |
Joined on Dec 2011
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#27
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Originally Posted by Scorpius
I might be wrong with adding you to the archetype group of users that doesn't like to be bothered with thinking about what they're doing as long as things just work. Still you have the same demands & arguments. You're priority is that any but one of the propreatary solutions becomes standard and call open source, standards, etc. wishful thinking of people stuck in their idealistic youth times. Sorry but I must laugh once more, because your hope for such a commercial standard is nothing else then wishful thinking too. Ok, you're older than one might assume, so let me guess your history of IM services could look like the following: ICQ, MSN, SKYPE, FACEBOOK, WhatsApp, ... Please do me the favour and tell me which one you believe is now to stay forever because of universal unreached functionality and therefore no other company will ever come up with another new IM service? What will you actually do next time when you're forced to hop to the next big thing just because it will offer a new fancy little feature the crowd gets crazy about? Will you write emails to your 1000 contacts to stay with Skype or would you like to be able to keep basic messaging, audio & video and upgrade your XMPP client once you want to use these new features?
This thread has become too funny. First, it is really funny that you call me uneducated
Originally Posted by Scorpius
No I'm not so young anymore as well, NO I do not use Linux as main OS, YES I also still use Windows, NO I'm not an open source missionary, YES I'm also software developer with a bit shorter experience, NO I do not believe that software is generally better just because it is open but I find many advantages in open standards, YES I believe that one reason for the success of the internet was it's open and neutral architecture, NO I'm not only using XMPP, but NO I never had any disadvantages from adding most of my contacts from federated services (mainly Google) so far... just to address the issue of prejudices
When I was young I was like you all. And I just used OpenSource alternatives to everything. I've been using Linux since I saw fighting Linus and Tannenbaum in the comp.os.minix (in 1992 I was already in the university, I'm a Computer Engineer with +20 years experience).
The difference is that I grew up and you haven't. I won't make my life harder because stupid OpenSource principles that go nowhere. I don't fight the OpenSource flag anymore and I haven't since like 10 years ago. It's stupid.
Now I just do things to make my life easier. Instead of JUST using Linux like I'm sure you all do, I use both Windows and Linux at the same time (one in a VMWare window of the other). It's STUPID (for me at least) just using Linux, using both at the same time makes my life easier.
I have thousand of contacts. And I DO want to talk to them. I'm not as stupid as to say to my contacts "I won't talk to you because you're not using an OpenSource IM. That only makes life harder. I have to accept that people using Skype or WhatsApp or whatever are no "uneducated people". They are just educated in something else. But they are my friends, my family, my loved one that won't move to another IM protocol.
Originally Posted by Scorpius
They are uneducated! Most of them have no technical knowledge of what they're using, most even do not know they're even using XMPP already in a lot of cases and YES, most of them believe it's mostly a technical reason why IM services are interoperable. They can be easily fooled by advertisment and do not notice if companies put fences around them. True, this is probably an arrogant opionion and does not help to convince people of something better - but I think we can agree on this here in a mainly technical board. Why else do you think spam mails, viruses etc. can be such an success if people would just spend 2 ct on thiking before clicking anywhere...
If you can't understand that then you're the uneducated people.
Originally Posted by Scorpius
No one ever said they should only support XMPP, SIP & CO. I see no problem in providing Facebook, Twitter, Hangout, BBM or whatever as long as XMPP is not forced to the dark hidden corner. I think Jolla people are also great supporters of open standards, but are not silly to create just a nerd phone. I fully aggree with you on this issue and I do not want Jolla listen to all nerdy extra wishes - otherwise the company will release something like this:
Anyway this is going nowhere. Why? Because Jolla knows and thinks like I do. They know if they don't include some big names in those IM nobody is gonna buy their phone. That means bankrupcy in less than a year and another dead phone like the N900/N9.
Originally Posted by Scorpius
Seems you're getting too emotional about nerds and open source because of own frustrations with this topic . The truth is always inbetween things - definetely not on a pure open source heaven of dreams - and also not on the other side where you seem to have found your wisdom.
Sadly for you nerds, this is a business. And businesses have only one objective: making money. Not making nerds/geeks happy, no. Just making money. The "OpenSource" is just an excuse to license cheap software instead of spending a lot of money in a propietary OS. That's real life buddies, welcome to it.
And that's why Bill Gates life is easier than Linus Torvalds life
Last edited by zappAtom; 2013-06-02 at 11:42.
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2013-06-02
, 12:54
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Posts: 230 |
Thanked: 302 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Helsinki, Suomi (Finland)
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#28
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Originally Posted by Scorpius
What makes you so sure we are surrounded by geeks (I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but I suppose computer savvy people?).
Well it looks that I'm way different than you and I'm not surrounded by geeks (and I don't want to either).
I would like to see you telling to your 15 years old daughter to install whatever XMPP software you can buy for her iPhone and tell her that's what she's gonna use to talk to you.
Same for the wife. Same for the cool (not geek) friends. It's just absurd.
My friends or family are probably not cool by your definition (how do you define it?), but they are nice people. Some quite normal some not so and they are from different walks of life. Some do like toying with computers/smartphones, but for most it's just another gadget they could easily live without. I suppose majority of my friends doesn't even own one.
What I would call cool people are probably those _not_ running after the flock, but doing their own decisions instead. You know, original and charismatic types. But I guess the definition is highly variable.
Most multiprotocol clients support XMPP so it's rare any of my friends had to install anything on their phones/computers to talk to me. They usually already have something installed to talk to their friends in several other networks. Some do not use XMPP true, usually same who don't use other IMs or computers either. But that's fine. I meet them in person when I need to socialise with them.
Last edited by ladoga; 2013-06-02 at 13:06.
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2013-06-02
, 14:12
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Posts: 3,464 |
Thanked: 5,107 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Gothenburg in Sweden
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#29
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Originally Posted by ladoga
Bull normal people is not nice they'r evil. Linux geeks is the only nice people (People with Android not included cause thats not real Linux).
What makes you so sure we are surrounded by geeks (I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but I suppose computer savvy people?).
My friends or family are probably not cool by your definition (how do you define it?), but they are nice people. Some quite normal some not so and they are from different walks of life. Some do like toying with computers/smartphones, but for most it's just another gadget they could easily live without. I suppose majority of my friends doesn't even own one.
What I would call cool people are probably those _not_ running after the flock, but doing their own decisions instead. You know, original and charismatic types. But I guess the definition is highly variable.
Most multiprotocol clients support XMPP so it's rare any of my friends had to install anything on their phones/computers to talk to me. They usually already have something installed to talk to their friends in several other networks. Some do not use XMPP true, usually same who don't use other IMs or computers either. But that's fine. I meet them in person when I need to socialise with them.
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2013-06-03
, 13:25
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#30
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Scorpius, you're wrong in all your assumptions - at least as far as I am concerned. (Believe it or not, I do use Windows! What now?)
Originally Posted by Scorpius
That's what it all comes down to in the end. There's a word for people who only do what makes life easier for themselves, without thinking of others, without thinking about consequences, without any moral standards. I won't use it here.
Now I just do things to make my life easier.
Originally Posted by Scorpius
This is where you and I agree... and still don't. Jolla will (and must) try to include as many options as possible. What you don't seem to realize: It's not up to them to decide if Skype will be available on their Sailfish OS. Because your beloved Skype is not an open protocol and only under the control of Microsoft, Microsoft alone will decide if you'll see Skype on a Jolla phone, no-one else. No matter what you think.
Anyway this is going nowhere. Why? Because Jolla knows and thinks like I do.
When I was young I was like you all. And I just used OpenSource alternatives to everything. I've been using Linux since I saw fighting Linus and Tannenbaum in the comp.os.minix (in 1992 I was already in the university, I'm a Computer Engineer with +20 years experience).
The difference is that I grew up and you haven't. I won't make my life harder because stupid OpenSource principles that go nowhere. I don't fight the OpenSource flag anymore and I haven't since like 10 years ago. It's stupid.
Now I just do things to make my life easier. Instead of JUST using Linux like I'm sure you all do, I use both Windows and Linux at the same time (one in a VMWare window of the other). It's STUPID (for me at least) just using Linux, using both at the same time makes my life easier.
I have thousand of contacts. And I DO want to talk to them. I'm not as stupid as to say to my contacts "I won't talk to you because you're not using an OpenSource IM. That only makes life harder. I have to accept that people using Skype or WhatsApp or whatever are no "uneducated people". They are just educated in something else. But they are my friends, my family, my loved one that won't move to another IM protocol.
If you can't understand that then you're the uneducated people.
Anyway this is going nowhere. Why? Because Jolla knows and thinks like I do. They know if they don't include some big names in those IM nobody is gonna buy their phone. That means bankrupcy in less than a year and another dead phone like the N900/N9.
Sadly for you nerds, this is a business. And businesses have only one objective: making money. Not making nerds/geeks happy, no. Just making money. The "OpenSource" is just an excuse to license cheap software instead of spending a lot of money in a propietary OS. That's real life buddies, welcome to it.
And that's why Bill Gates life is easier than Linus Torvalds life
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Last edited by Scorpius; 2013-06-01 at 16:45.