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2008-03-28
, 08:19
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Posts: 108 |
Thanked: 6 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ France
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#52
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
You are absolutely right, I don't know s**t about packaging.
You obviously don't know much about the Debian packaging system then.
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
But what I know is that if you allow developers to put what ever they want in the category section, you end up with current situation.
Yes, breaking the whole packaging system because packagers can't agree on some categorization guidelines is a fantastic idea.
So my comment was only a suggestion to improve the system. But if only wizards can make comments, put that in the subject of the thread.
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
I don't know in details how it works, what I know is that if I turn "red pill" mode on, I find a lot more packages available for installation. Stupid user reaction "their must be some criteria in the package". Then back to "blue" mode. Oh, let's try to install this new package! WRRRRONG! Works only in "red" mode. Then why is it listed??
Uh, what? The packagers don't decide if something needs red pill to be installed, there are a lot more variables involved in whether something needs to be sledgehammered into place than you seem to think.
It seems this thread also is "red pill".
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2008-03-28
, 11:07
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Posts: 152 |
Thanked: 620 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Netherlands
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#53
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Originally Posted by twaelti
I can add paging for those categories.
Very simple:
- Extend what was added a short time ago: add paging to the "Fresh" and "Popular" categories, so that one could browse through all the listings.
In addition, take a look at sites like palmgear/pocketgear, with categories like "Essentials"
How would we determine "Essentials"? Based on downloads and ratings?
Originally Posted by BoxOfSnoo
Just click on the 'XXX applications' link on the downloads frontpage, this links to http://maemo.org/downloads/list/OS2008/all for example.
Oh yeah, as far as maemo.org, I wish you could browse a list of everything. I hate only seeing 5 top selections with no option to see the lower ones.
Clicking on 'Fresh' and 'Popular will give you a list of the top 25 items. (Paging would be a good idea to show more)
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
I think you have a point there. The idea of the autobuilder is that packages are only uploaded to extras-devel, when they meet certain standards. (At the moment we are testing this in private and the only criterium is that a package actually builds).
This is an important point. What I really should have said was "streamlined access", not "easier access". Access to Extras shouldn't really be "easier" (i.e. available to every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a recompiled text editor) rather, the application/submission process needs to be clarified and streamlined—developers need a clear, straightforward way to get their applications into the repository. That, while being a bit selective, doesn't get in the way of itself.
If the package arrives in extras-devel, a developer should be able to decide if the package needs to get promoted to extras.
Ideally all uploads to extras and extras-devel should go through the autobuilder and not to the repository directly. We could do some quality control in the autobuilder, but on the other hand we need to make sure we don't make uploading too hard. To find a balance there is pretty difficult.
We need to have clear documentation for the whole uploading process, getting the information to the developers is key.
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2008-03-28
, 11:31
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#54
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Originally Posted by rheve
That's why we need good guidelines to tell developers and packages what categories they should use.
But what I know is that if you allow developers to put what ever they want in the category section, you end up with current situation.
Originally Posted by rheve
Because one of Red Pill's features is showing everything outside of User/—everything that the user doesn't need to see with proper package management.
I don't know in details how it works, what I know is that if I turn "red pill" mode on, I find a lot more packages available for installation.
Originally Posted by rheve
Like I said, there are a lot of variables that go into preventing a package in User/ from being installable, some of these stem the repository mess (while I don't disagree with the previous poster about multiple repositories being useful sometimes, it really should be limited to Extras, Extras-devel and the official repos for the sake of the new user's sanity), some stem from bad packaging and some stem from broken local installs, so determining whether something is "Red Pill" or not isn't entirely straightforward.
Works only in "red" mode. Then why is it listed??
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2008-03-28
, 13:24
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Posts: 2,535 |
Thanked: 6,681 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#55
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Originally Posted by Texrat
I put my RFC on my maemopeople blog purely so it'd be syndicated to the planet (which is widely read). I also sent it to maemo-developers and Quim directly.
OK, bud, all facetiousness aside-- is there a presentable plan? Has it been presented?
As one of your voluntary liaison folks here I will gladly help where I can there, but I'm thinking such a plan needs to be presented to Ari Jaaksi and Quim Gil at the least... either via their blogs as feedback or a direct email (or both). I can help with the latter.
There was lots of community discussion and consensus, but there was no official response from Nokia; given the carrot for gatekeepers was increased karma on maemo.org, it required that bit of official sanction.
Also, Nokia/maemo.org involvement is necessary to not duplicate work (see the recent announcements about beta promotion interfaces and auto-builders)
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2008-03-28
, 13:41
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#56
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Originally Posted by Jaffa
Agreed with your points. Your plan, combined with many helpful suggestions here and perhaps some further fine-tuning, looks sound.
I put my RFC on my maemopeople blog purely so it'd be syndicated to the planet (which is widely read). I also sent it to maemo-developers and Quim directly.
There was lots of community discussion and consensus, but there was no official response from Nokia; given the carrot for gatekeepers was increased karma on maemo.org, it required that bit of official sanction.
Also, Nokia/maemo.org involvement is necessary to not duplicate work (see the recent announcements about beta promotion interfaces and auto-builders)
It looks like X-Fade may be a member of the maemo team; X-Fade, are you able to comment on that?
Either way, I will try to help "carry the water" a bit on this.
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Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
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Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-03-28
, 13:59
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Posts: 868 |
Thanked: 474 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Capital District, NY, USA
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#57
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Quality control: I don't care how much you clean up the interface if the packages flakey
UI: Why can't I just upgrade all packages that are available?
Right now maemo.org has how many packages that you would consider beta? 15-30 I would say. Noobs should be prevented, by default, from installing packages that have not been through QC.
Right now maps, FBreader, and OpenSSH will not upgrade through App Manager ( that's 40% of the 3rd party apps I have installed on this unit ).
UI: Why can't I just upgrade all packages that are available?
Right now maemo.org has how many packages that you would consider beta? 15-30 I would say. Noobs should be prevented, by default, from installing packages that have not been through QC.
Right now maps, FBreader, and OpenSSH will not upgrade through App Manager ( that's 40% of the 3rd party apps I have installed on this unit ).
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2008-03-28
, 14:00
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Posts: 152 |
Thanked: 620 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Netherlands
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#58
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Originally Posted by Texrat
It looks like X-Fade may be a member of the maemo team; X-Fade, are you able to comment on that?
http://maemo.org/news/announcements/...els_breet.html
Well, I'm a basically a community member but Nokia hired me to do some tasks. I have been doing the /downloads revamp and am trying to help out in the extras repository improvement efforts. (Some might have seen the extras download statistics that I quietly added to maemo.org/downloads)
I also try to keep the maemo.org website updated (planet, news and events) and do some admin work on garage too.
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2008-03-28
, 14:05
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#59
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X-Fade, that's wonderful. So at the very least one maemo participant is aware of this thread (and better, participating! 
).
).
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2008-03-28
, 14:06
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Posts: 152 |
Thanked: 620 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Netherlands
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#60
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Originally Posted by brontide
Don't forget that those are community packages. People are uploading those packages in their spare time for you to enjoy. Mistakes do happen.
Quality control: I don't care how much you clean up the interface if the packages flakey
UI: Why can't I just upgrade all packages that are available?
Right now maemo.org has how many packages that you would consider beta? 15-30 I would say. Noobs should be prevented, by default, from installing packages that have not been through QC.
Right now maps, FBreader, and OpenSSH will not upgrade through App Manager ( that's 40% of the 3rd party apps I have installed on this unit ).
We are working on better quality control, but things like this can happen at the moment.
(1) I think a tree arrangement is a wonderful idea ... **however** it should be a *local* tree I build myself. I envision it working on an e-mail filter basis to sort things out by patterns I specify ... that way I could ...
(a) do something about how things are arranged, like putting categories I don't care about in a "trash" branch ...
(b) divide things up by repo (and *yes* I actually *want* separate repos, there *are* reasons for this, ya know!)
(c) put all those gcompris* packages where the sun don't shine!
(2) Let me at least *show* the repo in the lists!
(3) Uh, fix the bug that makes it hang on "Updating" after an install completes (not all of them mind you, just sometimes!)
(4) And ... a very tangible immediate wish ... that the app could leave me *on* the category I just finished browsing in the categories list when I exit that category! (Why does it always return to the *top* of the list? ... and remember class, no lazy programmer excuses are allowed!)
Ken