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Texrat's Avatar
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,015 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#11
So Bec-- wanna add "Brainstorm Champion" to your signature?
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#12
My problem with brainstorm is that I'm a 1|0, black|white person. That's a bad thing for brainstorms in general.

I also have to admit, before I write on, that I prefer bugzilla a lot over brainstorm: Bugzilla is easier to handle. You can search it easily. You can see status, dependency,.. plus, and that's the biggest advantage, you usually get some direct input from the Vatican. At some point you'll know: They'll do it in PR1.2. Or: They don't think it's useful and will never do it. A WONTFIX is a good thing because you'll know what's not gonna happen.

But there's two things in particular I simply don't understand (even though in principle I think I could like the idea... someday):

1) Brainstorm vs. Bugzilla - "no brainers"

There's this rule of "very specific and no-brainer enhancement requests" for bugzilla. Sounds nice. But then there's also bugs like 1889 (camera support for flash plug-in) that from my POV couldn't be any more specific than they are: Somebody switched flash support off for privacy reasons... and the bug is about re-enabling it. It's not the big "How to get camera support for the Flash plug-in"-discussion. It's plain and simple: Re-enable it. You took it away, put it back in. Will you? If not, WONTFIX.
I don't see how such bugs can be reasonably transferred over to brainstorm if there's only one possible solution, nothing to discuss or suggest, only those who say "yes" and those who say "no". - There would be something to discuss if the original bug would clearly be commented upon as WONTFIX. Then a brainstorm would make sense. Like: "Nokia will not let us use the cam on cam4.com. - How can we work around this? Any ideas?" - Do you see the difference?

So for me, brainstorm is a place where people can discuss the "How": Solution #1, solution #2, solution #3, then vote for one of them, discuss on t.m.o. etc.
If there's no reason to discuss a "How" (at least as long as Nokia doesn't comment on how they're gonna handle the problem), if it's as simple as "Please enable feature X in application Y" - what good is brainstorm? Why go to maemo.org and discuss with the community if I want Nokia to change code?

2) Responsibility, process, workflow,... or whatever you call it

Bugs are a beautiful thing. You report them, others vote, you're asked for more input, and eventually they'll tell you that they fixed it - or that they decided not to because Diablo's dead. Whatever. But the point is: When I open a bug report, I talk to somebody and get an answer. I start something that will be worked upon (reliably) and come to an end, even if this end is WONTFIX.

Brainstorm is different. You write there - and then what? Who is responsible? Will somebody look at it and say: Hey, this is a good idea, let's do it? Who? Is this something that should be done by community members? Do Nokians read the brainstorm? If solutions are discussed and solution #1 has 2 votes and solution #2 has 50 votes - is it OK to close the brainstorm as soon as you implemented solution #1? (Because somehow some kind of solution was implemented, just not the one people wanted.)

I don't understand it. I remember I proposed some solutions here or there, but I don't even follow what's going on on those pages because I don't know what to expect.
With bugs it's different. I actively follow many bugs. Because I know that there is a certain lifecycle of a bug and its story will eventually come to an end... either a happy end or not. Bugs are like books or films. Brainstorms, at the moment, are like advertising folders I get from the local supermarket every now and then. They don't have a timeline.... nothing happens... and you're not sure if anything should happen at all.


That's why I'm unsure about brainstorm. Maybe if somebody could help me about my point 2 (responsibility, workflow), I'd get a better idea of how to use it.
 

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#13
Sorry guys, but at current time brainstrom is very difficult to use. I tried it at least twice but Firefox just sleeps forever, waiting answer from web site after I submit a proposal. I am not expert in top level apps and I don't know why is it but techincally it is difficult today.
 
Texrat's Avatar
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#14
You certainly raise valid points and ask the right questions benny.

But it's hard to pigeonhole something like Brainstorm into a 1|0 box. It isn't a black-and-white process-- However, it should LEAD to black and white action, ultimately. That's where we're coming up short.

Some solutions are easy to implement. Speaking from my own experience, Maemo Greeters was one. It was one suggested solution of many related to improving the new member and visitor experience here. It just required someone to start a thread, propose the idea to the community and facilitate the process. No overhead, no special rights required. Easy.

At the other end of the spectrum are the changes the require Nokia engagement and particularly some significant expense. Those *should* be fairly easy to get going assuming Nokia accepts the need and responsibility. There's been a mixed bag of success there but again, identification of the required resource is a large part of the battle and these should be black and white in that respect.

In between are the ones falling through the cracks, where it may not be easy/possible for the typical member to implement but maybe it doesn't fit the bill for Nokia, either. A good example was the request for meetup "swag", where community members are willing to do the graphics work but we lack funding to get products (tee shirts, caps, mugs, whatever) made. Requests like that get stuck in limbo and have resisted all efforts to be pried out...
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#15
I am going to request access to the Brainstorm database, and see if I can create a reporting solution for it...

EDIT: this one may be tougher than I thought. A dialog has been started, but getting the necessary access (for me) may be an issue.
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Last edited by Texrat; 2010-01-17 at 02:06.
 

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#16
benny1967,
Big thanks! I´m also having huge issues really understanding what and how brainstorm really benefits this community.

I have read some of brainstorms and voted couple of them but then what? It makes me happy to get "involved", but what really happens? I really need some kind of results to motivate to keep voting, suggesting and collaboration. Right now it feels like its place for people to brainstorm for sake of fun. I need results from extras developers or from Nokia. I want advertisements about different brainstorms running: Most voted, viewed, commented and also lowest etc. Best brainstorms which are taken consideration by Nokia. Brainstorms that have been implemented etc..

So comparison to bugzilla where you instantly see that there is some kind of reaction on side of nokia makes at least me push things harder. I try to make better bug report, i try to find solution, i want to test because of their reaction to my comment. Maybe there should be stars/prioritize numbers from Nokia on Brainstorm that are directly linked to official applications or maemo os. After 10 votes status changes to 'Under consideration' by whom? If i made brainstorm directly concerning maemo os is Nokia really taking my proposal under consideration after 10 votes?

Reason why i like to vote is that I see at least some feedback quickly and after while (couple of months?) end result Wontfix etc. or timetable for things to move on.

Last edited by slender; 2010-01-13 at 21:59.
 

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#17
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
So Bec-- wanna add "Brainstorm Champion" to your signature?
You know how things are with advertising

Anyway I want to emphasize again that we should focus on very obvious features, things that everybody can notice and make day to day life easier.

Those are the things people notice most and make them feel happy about their device and bring a constant flow of ideas.
In the end it's not touch-integration that makes a great device/OS, it's the integration with the users and the needs they might have.

As for brainstorm vs bugzilla,
Brainstorm is obviously more user friendly while bugzilla should be more oriented towards "nokia, we want that!"

Analytical judgment has to be required from the users as there are things like:
(just a basic example)"Headset button input reader" that nokia will never EVER care of.
In their misconception hacker/business devices are not multimedia-cute devices so who bother and bring decent headset support?
The best thing (IF) they would ever do, in this particular case, would be a nice custom headset - not cheap of course - or at least one of their newer ones.

Right now I think there's a bit of a mixup between things we as a community should accomplish for having the most relevant features and nokia's responsibility, to keep the device bug-free, focus on the global aspects of the device (eg responsive menus and UI) and of course deep hardware-software integration for things like MMS, videocall, voicedialing.

I think separating the tasks better community | nokia would be another good selection criterion.
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Last edited by Bec; 2010-01-13 at 22:41.
 

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#18
Originally Posted by slender View Post
Reason why i like to vote is that I see at least some feedback quickly and after while (couple of months?) end result Wontfix etc. or timetable for things to move on.
We shouldn't move on as we don't have an input from enough users since they themselves don't know what would make using the N900 more comfortable.

I say even if they're (the brainstorms) not picked in a few months or so, let 'em rot, since maybe a (fresh) dev will someday find the request as being relevant for himself as well and make a nice surprise to a bunch of unsuspecting users

Let 'em rot but let 'em also be accessible
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Last edited by Bec; 2010-01-13 at 22:43.
 
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#19
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
There were two main motivations in the creation of Brainstorm:

1. Bugzilla seen as a non-friendly tool for non-tech people that otherwise might have great ideas proposing and discussing new features. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

2. Separation between bugs and features seen as useful also for Nokia since the acceptance of bugs comes usually from developers while the acceptance of features comes usually from product managers. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

The Maemo product managers are eager to see a Brainstorm with great ideas, fruitful discussion and plenty of votes, showing the proposals worth prioritizing and considering first. But they suffer the very same problems reported by users since they are users themselves: slow server, difficulty to follow the activities, process not very polished, categories not very clear...

About the categories, I posted an alternative proposal but I got no feedback: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33223
Thanks Quim, that second point is very helpful.

Ok, so you're saying that the division between brainstorm on the community/user side is by complexity and UI, and on the Maemo/Nokia side, it's role. Maybe that's part of the problem.

What about an interface between bugzilla and brainstorm the same way there is between either of those and Talk? All it would have to be is a link, the same way we do now. Rather than closing bugs, they would be marked as "Suspended pending deliberation" and the interested parties would then take it to Brainstorm. When some (established) consensus and plan is sufficiently voted on in Brainstorm, it would be a reopened as a valid entry in bugzilla.

That would avoid things falling through the cracks or being duplicated because of the differences in who's paying attention to what, and why.

Edit: Sorry, the lab was calling.

One of the most important parts of that would be to combine the votes between brainstorm and bugzilla. And... i had another important thought but it's gone. :/
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Last edited by Flandry; 2010-01-14 at 00:11.
 

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#20
Please, keep in mind that the bugtracker also tracks all bugs and enhancements for community software too. (At least thats what it should do).

The discussion split out of bugtracker for "new" stuff happens to brainstorm, so do major enhancements but minor should just have a thread in software and grow to brainstorm if realy needed.

The linking allready happens as long as Andre (or someone else) recognize the discussion threads .

I now mark threads in brainstorm outdated (maybe you have a better word?!) if nothing happens anymore but we should not remove them.

The prefix makes it visible in which state a proposal is atm. (no colors I found yet sorry kathy). Maybe it needs a legend somewhere to tell what is what... and if we use timedelay for something... how long it takes till outdated and so on.
 

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