The future of your Nokia Windows phone - Page 20 - maemo.org

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	ndi	2011-03-01 , 11:49
	Posts: 2,050 \| Thanked: 1,425 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Bucharest	#191

Originally Posted by cfh11

As I mentioned above, this is obviously indirectly influenced by Apple. But the "make my pc simpler" was a brilliant campaign for Windows 7 and extending it to WP7 is the next logical step.

And yet, W7 is the most complex Windows out there and if one actually digs to see how it work, it's incredible. By far, Windows has never been re-designed to this extent. While one of the most intuitive UIs, it still expanded on remote control, CLI, new layers, network, etc.

I think that THIS is the future of OSs, everywhere. An UI that is simple enough to use by monkeys, with a huge machinery behind that that beginner never sees.

This, while it has iOS influences, is not the iOS or OSX way, MS doesn't hide inner workings, it just cleaned up everyday UI.

And ultimately, iOS is the leader and has some nice things that obviously work. It makes sense that everyone follow the path, you don't expect manufacturers to see that simplicity sells and run in the other direction.

As cfh said, it's the next logical step in mobile and general software development. They will ultimately look the same, not because they copied each other but because it's the right way to go. All cars today have injection because it's better than carburetters, not because they all copied each other.

This is what people want, simple, clean UI with eye candy and alll the pro stuff tucked away. But not inaccesible.

Sooner or later.

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wmarone	2011-03-01 , 15:34
Posts: 1,746 \| Thanked: 2,100 times \| Joined on Sep 2009	#192

Originally Posted by ndi

I think that THIS is the future of OSs, everywhere. An UI that is simple enough to use by monkeys, with a huge machinery behind that that beginner never sees.

And if the WP7/iOS design is any indication, we will always be treated like beginners.

And ultimately, iOS is the leader and has some nice things that obviously work. It makes sense that everyone follow the path, you don't expect manufacturers to see that simplicity sells and run in the other direction.

No, but I would like the complexity to be left as an option, something wholly opposed by Apple and Microsoft.

This is what people want, simple, clean UI with eye candy and alll the pro stuff tucked away. But not inaccesible.

Well, no. Most people don't give a damn about the pro stuff, and as such Apple and Microsoft are using that as an excuse to lock you in a box that has no access to it. All the "pro" stuff instead is sold to developers for $100 a year + %30 of sales, and unless you agree to their terms you are unwelcome. Android presses against that trend, thankfully, but it too is its own form of crippling.

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	rm42	2011-03-01 , 17:37
	Posts: 963 \| Thanked: 626 times \| Joined on Sep 2009 @ Connecticut, USA	#193

Originally Posted by wmarone

All the "pro" stuff instead is sold to developers for $100 a year + %30 of sales, and unless you agree to their terms you are unwelcome. Android presses against that trend, thankfully, but it too is its own form of crippling.

Yup, but at least with Android we can have GPL programs. I thank MS for not allowing open source software in their devices. It makes explaining why to avoid them easier.

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exo	2011-03-01 , 23:16
Posts: 45 \| Thanked: 20 times \| Joined on Jul 2010	#194

Originally Posted by rm42

Yup, but at least with Android we can have GPL programs. I thank MS for not allowing open source software in their devices. It makes explaining why to avoid them easier.

But you can have GPL programs on MS devices, just not GPLv3 and the like, if you understand the license itself it should be pretty obvious why that license is not compatible with the single app store and non-sideloading model. Apple has the same restrictions for the very same reason.

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	rm42	2011-03-02 , 03:08
	Posts: 963 \| Thanked: 626 times \| Joined on Sep 2009 @ Connecticut, USA	#195

Originally Posted by exo

But you can have GPL programs on MS devices, just not GPLv3 and the like, if you understand the license itself it should be pretty obvious why that license is not compatible with the single app store and non-sideloading model. Apple has the same restrictions for the very same reason.

Wrong!

“Excluded License” means any license requiring, as a condition of use, modification and/or distribution of the software subject to the license, that the software or other software combined and/or distributed with it be (i) disclosed or distributed in source code form; (ii) licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (iii) redistributable at no charge. Excluded Licenses include, but are not limited to the GPLv3 Licenses.

Any questions?

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exo	2011-03-02 , 04:51
Posts: 45 \| Thanked: 20 times \| Joined on Jul 2010	#196

Originally Posted by rm42

Any questions?

Actually i missed that, that does rule out GPL-only - same as Apple's app store - GPL licensed software is still very much acceptable so long as it is dual-licensed under a license that conforms to MS' terms but even outside of that your claim about them not allowing open source is wrong.
GPLv3 and LGPLv3 reference app store-like ecosystems so of course they would never be able to exist in the WP7 or iOS markeplace but it seems with this amendment MS has proactively decided they aren't going to provide source distribution (perhaps to avoid the iOS GNU Go debacle) so that does indeed rule out GPL-only, however there is more to open source than the GPL. So no, they haven't banned open source software.

Last edited by exo; 2011-03-02 at 05:03.

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	felbutss	2011-03-02 , 05:10
	Posts: 579 \| Thanked: 286 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Australia	#197

i would of been happy with android now wm... hello HTC goodbye nokia. still love my n900

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	ndi	2011-03-02 , 10:49
	Posts: 2,050 \| Thanked: 1,425 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Bucharest	#198

We've had this discussion before some place else. GPL that requires source distribution is excluded from the market, not use. IMO, big woop, wanta fightaboutit?

Since when does GPL software care if it makes it on MS's home page? Windows doesn't have repos.

In that discussion I mentioned I found no evidence either way about installing 3rd party software, all that is mentioned is that for use with Market developers must submit software. One assumes a devel can write, compile and sign anything one wants. Even in beta, WP7 allows a (limited) number of unknown software. At the very worst, it will be jail broken, like all successful OSs (haaaa....)

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	ysss	2011-03-02 , 10:59
	Posts: 4,384 \| Thanked: 5,524 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou	#199

Originally Posted by felbutss

i would of been happy with android now wm... hello HTC goodbye nokia. still love my n900

omg, the ghost of a border collie's nose

how've you been? what have you been using all this time?

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	rm42	2011-03-02 , 14:48
	Posts: 963 \| Thanked: 626 times \| Joined on Sep 2009 @ Connecticut, USA	#200

Originally Posted by exo

Actually i missed that, that does rule out GPL-only - same as Apple's app store - GPL licensed software is still very much acceptable so long as it is dual-licensed under a license that conforms to MS' terms but even outside of that your claim about them not allowing open source is wrong.
GPLv3 and LGPLv3 reference app store-like ecosystems so of course they would never be able to exist in the WP7 or iOS markeplace but it seems with this amendment MS has proactively decided they aren't going to provide source distribution (perhaps to avoid the iOS GNU Go debacle) so that does indeed rule out GPL-only, however there is more to open source than the GPL. So no, they haven't banned open source software.

This affects much more than just the GPL. Even some of Microsoft's own open source licenses are excluded.

http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireles...pp-store.shtml

Sure there are some licenses that are considered open source that are acceptable to MS, as mentioned on the article above. But, those are not the licenses that most FOSS coders like to use. Just look at all the apps we have on the N900. Most of them are GPLed. Android and Maemo/Meego do allow us to enjoy the wonderful fruits of freedom spirited coders. People who knowingly restrict themselves from this are either ignorant or too imprisoned already by non-free software.

Maybe we should start to use the term copyleft more often to avoid confusion.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html

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Nokia Booklet 3G (RX-75) Drivers (60)

Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (7)