Originally Posted by overlord

Throw 1,5 million immigrants in any economically weak nation and it will crumble. Not looking for excuses. It's just a fact.

Originally Posted by DeargDoom

That is an admirably philosophical attitude youre are taking with other peoples pensions. Considering that German pensions will take an enormous hit if Greece and the other PIGS default, what reaction would you find most appropriate from Germans nearing retirement?

A shrug of the shoulders and a pang of regret that the market didnt judge them productive enough? Or anger at these feckless foreigners ruining pensions they had worked so hard to build up?

This chart neatly illustrates why Europe has no choice but to pay up, Europes Web of Debt. Its mutually assured destruction.

Finally, I think its a bit weak to complain that in 2008 no-one knew that anything was amiss. There were many well publicised warnings about various PIGS economies (I am no expert on Greece but Ireland and Spain were well flagged as experiencing a bubble).

Surely this is not the forum for people to whine about not having done sufficient research.

Originally Posted by overlord

Who said we are not productive? Maybe not as much as Germany or the Nordic countries but still... Anyhow I would love to see you being productive with 45degrees Celcius during summertime... I hope you know what summertime means in Finland, do you...?

Originally Posted by AlMehdi

Immigrants normaly don't take money it gives money. It depends what you do with them. Sweden got more that 1,5 million immigrants and we are far from crumbeling. I think the Irak war gave us about 20 000 more imigrants within a year. (Sweden was the country in europe that took the most from Irak). Also the people in Sweden are getting older.. so we need a lot more immigrants than we have now.

Sure at the beginning it might cost little but later this immigrants start working and pay taxes. So if immigrants are your problem then you are doing something really really wrong.

I am not sure but Greece are or have been a tourist economy. Meaning a big income have been from tourist visiting the country. Now with the Euro things have become more expensive and less tourist are drawn to come. Thus more ppl in Greece are unemployed and the state lose tax income.

Edit: Ohh.. and try working when it is 30 degrees below zero outside

Originally Posted by overlord

(The following comment goes to ossipena's statement) Haha! I almost split my sides with laughter here...! Again NOT the same situation at all... And now let me elaborate on how many money does Germany owe to us primarily for reparations and what WWII meant to Greece's economy...

Firstly, Germany owes 275 Million Euros as reparations for World War I. Now, as of the Paris Peace Conference (1946) Germany was to pay reparations to Greece for different reasons, but all as a result from what took place during WWII... Here we go: a) 5 Billion Euros for all the damage caused during Greece's neutrality right before WWII, b) 51 Billion Euros as reparations for WWII, c) 14 Billion Euros for the Occupational Loan with which Germany charged the unable to react Bank of Greece in 1942... These sum up to a total 70 Billion Euros (today's values) without taking into account possible interest rates that Greece could apply. From these 70 Billion Euros Germany gave to Greece 115 million German Marks in 1960. Not included are restorations for victims as well as the destruction of great part of our archaeological and religious treasures! None knows for sure the exact amount of gold stolen but taking into account that Germany charged us with a huge loan, most of our gold must have been drained... When the German occupation was over Greece was left to misery. 900.000 victims, 35% forests destroyed, 90% of industries destroyed, almost total annihilation of communications - roads - railway - maritime. Greece now had a galloping inflation, about 15million times the one we had before the war! These are NOT excuses! These are facts. When we Greeks initiate conversations about who's to blame, we all blame our government and ourselves... We never say "damn you Germans and your reparations"...