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	ed00	2011-09-30 , 00:49
	Posts: 277 \| Thanked: 215 times \| Joined on Dec 2009	#151

Heres another one...Meltemi...take it away

	chenliangchen	2011-09-30 , 01:17
	Posts: 1,478 \| Thanked: 9,871 times \| Joined on Dec 2008 @ Shanghai / London	#152

Maybe Nokia should change Harmattan back to Maemo 6...

	ossipena	2011-09-30 , 04:26
	Posts: 3,159 \| Thanked: 2,023 times \| Joined on Feb 2008 @ Finland	#153

Originally Posted by zwer

Adding a web page as an icon to the menu, which will launch the browser and some page (app) in it is not really an example of HTML(5) based environment - by that account you can claim that even Maemo 5 with web page 'widgets' on the desktop was moving in that direction. Heck, you could claim that Windows 95 was moving in that direction with .url files/shortcuts linked to a browser.

actually not. Windows 95 had bookmarks also. With N9 your only way to get a bookmark is to add it to application selector as an icon that looks just like it would be any application.

Originally Posted by zwer

...
And what if you want to create your own browser (for whatever reason) on a platform that's HTML5-based? You'd be essentially writing a browser inside of a browser. Browserception?

is this the best straw man you can come up with?

and as I have been saying: I am talking about 99% of "apps" that can be found in "app stores", not the marginal ones you are referring to.

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attila77	2011-09-30 , 06:50
Posts: 3,319 \| Thanked: 5,610 times \| Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland	#154

Originally Posted by don_falcone

Isn't RPM still inferior?

It doesn't matter - for modern store-style repository setups they are both utterly inefficient and bloated. Linux on mobile should use neither (they are great for integration purposes - which was the original reason they came into existance, but not for setting up/searching/manipulating a working body of millions of applications/content).

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	volt	2011-09-30 , 08:04
	Posts: 1,309 \| Thanked: 1,187 times \| Joined on Nov 2008	#155

Originally Posted by TheLongshot

You don't know what you are talking about with VS. Everything is built on top of the Windows API. As for Delphi, that is also built on the Windows API.

As I already quoted from Wikipedia:
Programs written in Visual Basic can also use the Windows API, but doing so requires external function declarations.

And both VS, Delphi, Java IDEs and Qt use graphical components, none of which are standard for Windows, but in addition to the Windows guidelines. So you're completely off base - hardly anything you see in Windows has a standard Windows GUI. It has a standard VS or Delphi or Java or Qt GUI.

Originally Posted by TheLongshot

Except that we aren't talking about a desktop OS. We are talking about a handheld OS, which is much more limited in screen resources, storage and battery power. What makes sense for a desktop system doesn't necessarily make sense for a mobile device. It also doesn't make sense to support many SDKs, particularly since it would be a custom job to adapt the SDK to a mobile interface.

Hogwash. When it comes to Windows, I have PCs running with the same desktop resolution as on my last two cell phones. This is all supported in the IDEs. And you can easily run a Linux system on 32GB harddrive; when I put together my last machine it ran Windows 7 a full year with only 64GB SSD. The N900 is a computer - why on earth put in limitations to prevent it from being one?

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Last edited by volt; 2011-09-30 at 08:10.

lma	2011-09-30 , 10:43
Posts: 2,802 \| Thanked: 4,491 times \| Joined on Nov 2007	#156

Originally Posted by attila77

It doesn't matter - for modern store-style repository setups they are both utterly inefficient and bloated. Linux on mobile should use neither (they are great for integration purposes - which was the original reason they came into existance, but not for setting up/searching/manipulating a working body of millions of applications/content).

You are confusing the packaging format/tool (.rpm/.deb, rpm/dpkg) with the repository management/update tools (yum/zypper/apt). "Millions" might be a bit of an exaggeration as well ;-)

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zimon	2011-09-30 , 13:52
Posts: 1,341 \| Thanked: 708 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#157

Originally Posted by lma

You are confusing the packaging format/tool (.rpm/.deb, rpm/dpkg) with the repository management/update tools (yum/zypper/apt). "Millions" might be a bit of an exaggeration as well ;-)

Well there still could be an option to do for example searches on packages on server side. rpm client and server protocol could be optionally more richer to transfer work load from mobile devices to the server. (On the other hand, I do not like to do many operations or calculations on any cloud, because privacy issues.)

But what it comes to apt vs rpm, rpm is technically, security wise and politically better choice. I haven't heard or read any other good reasons for Debian and Ubuntu to stay on deb, but legacy, stubbornness and laziness issues.

attila77	2011-09-30 , 15:12
Posts: 3,319 \| Thanked: 5,610 times \| Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland	#158

Originally Posted by lma

You are confusing the packaging format/tool (.rpm/.deb, rpm/dpkg) with the repository management/update tools (yum/zypper/apt). "Millions" might be a bit of an exaggeration as well ;-)

No, I mean both the package file formats *and* repository management as something that comes from the desktop background and solve the problems desktop linux distros had. With the desktop, you had interdependent software packages with unrelated development cycles and universal distribution models - hence the need for dependencies and public repositories. Modern mobile is a different story. The packages are not equal, there is no interdependency on the application side, there is no need for package dependencies (a mobile linux implements an API version, which is nowadays mandated to be backwards compatible), there is a need for per-user custom repositories, or even packages, package metadata is not only a system-related thing but actually plays part in the user interaction, etc, etc, etc. It really is a whole different ballgame. Don't get me wrong, I *love* apt-get and debs, and have grown to like rpm to an extent and would never switch from them for my desktop linux distro, but on mobile, their main advantage is familiarity, at the (increasing cost of) inefficiency and being unfit for the task.

EDIT: And as for millions - with people increasingly having this crazy idea of having bookmarks/rss feeds published as 'applications', we're going to be lucky if it's just a few millions

Originally Posted by zimon

Well there still could be an option to do for example searches on packages on server side. rpm client and server protocol could be optionally more richer to transfer work load from mobile devices to the server. (On the other hand, I do not like to do many operations or calculations on any cloud, because privacy issues.)

This is what pretty much every first-gen mobile linux is doing - rehashing desktop formats and technologies and tweaking them to death (maemo -> deb, android -> jar, meego -> rpm, webos -> ipkg). What all of these came to learn is that those are hacks. Hacks that we might be fond of for historical reasons, but still hacks

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Last edited by attila77; 2011-09-30 at 15:41.

zimon	2011-09-30 , 16:58
Posts: 1,341 \| Thanked: 708 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#159

Originally Posted by attila77

Modern mobile is a different story. The packages are not equal, there is no interdependency on the application side, there is no need for package dependencies (a mobile linux implements an API version, which is nowadays mandated to be backwards compatible), there is a need for per-user custom repositories, or even packages, package metadata is not only a system-related thing but actually plays part in the user interaction, etc, etc, etc.

per-user custom repositories are supported with rpm, and relatively safe way too. Trusting or not gpg-keyservers is then another thing.

I cannot see how you get around software library and and other soft resource dependencies, if package manager is not aware of them somehow. Some people do not need or want some software libraryC, but some applicationA and applicationB needs it. It is unefficient if C comes within inside A and B both or if C would be installed on the all systems although many would not want to have apps A and B.