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	PMaff	2012-05-08 , 17:03
	Posts: 361 \| Thanked: 219 times \| Joined on Sep 2010	#1151

Originally Posted by zimon

Oh, so not always.
I also have problems because the permissive multitasking with N900. I use FM-radio alot, almost daily. I like to surf on the web at the same time while riding a bus. Quite often when using a news portal, I tend to get 2 – 4 windows open and then FM-radio is swapped out. Also if I try to take a photo while listening radio, often FM-radio is swapped out and stops. Sometimes N900 becomes quite unresponsive. I'd rather have web-pages swapped out than FM-radio.
...
.

Wait a minute.
Now you are talking about paging/swapping.
That's a different topic than multitasking. In this case the
N900 would need more memory. It is not a problem of
multitasking. FM-Radio should not stop if it is swapped,
but I can imagine that there are many applications that do not
handle swapping and real time responsiveness.

Swapspace and swapping is something that you have on all those normal PCs and even there you cannot select, which applications are swapped out (if there are "swap-selectors" this would be new to me. Otoh some interesting new feature for swapping a la
"Swap that silly word document before you swap firefox" ;-) ).

Last edited by PMaff; 2012-05-08 at 17:05.

	danramos	2012-05-08 , 19:30
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#1152

Originally Posted by rcolistete

I am posting in this topic just to defeat some general comments that appear sometimes :

Your intent might have been to "defeat", but you appear to have technically flawed dismissives and appallingly misconceived explanations with no basis or explanation for them. At the very least, can you explain why you think the way you do?

Originally Posted by rcolistete

- iOS & Android are Linux : no, they are not Linux (but have some Unix/Linux pieces);

- They are Linux in as much as Debian, Red Hat, Slackware or any distribution of Linux is a Linux. They ALL use the Linux kernel as the basis for their operating system and then lay a set of executable code to support the operation of said kernel (i.e. GNU commands on top of Linux, thusly GNU/Linux). If you install Debian or Ubuntu on Android or on Maemo or MeeGo, etc., you're now running a GNU/Linux distribution. Android's code sitting on top of Linux isn't Linux, but neither is Debian's code itself or Red Hat's code itself, for that matter. They each depend on obtaining the Linux kernel in order to run on top of.

Originally Posted by rcolistete

- iOS & Android & WP7 have multitasking : no, they do not have multitasking as it is the OS that decides when to close the softwares. They have fast app switching or another funny description.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of 'cooperative multitasking' that the OPERATING SYSTEM decides when to halt and execute running software in a fast "app switching or another funny description" method? The other alternative would be "preemptive multitasking", which is where the APPLICATION decides when to allow another application to be able to have a slice of time and the operating system isn't deciding when to halt and execute running software. My impression is that each of these systems employs some mixture of BOTH of these multitasking principles. In the case of Android, at least, I know you can use BOTH methods and the author can employ either method on a per-thread level.

So, near as I can tell, EACH of the listed operating systems you mentioned have multitasking, whether it wounds your pride or otherwise bothers you. The one thing they may perform differently is memory, state and thread management that differs between them--and most of the time they're optimized for far more efficient power savings and battery management than you're used to seeing on a laptop or desktop computer where power management has always been managed badly.

__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR

rcolistete	2012-05-08 , 23:05
Posts: 1,269 \| Thanked: 3,961 times \| Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil	#1153

Originally Posted by danramos

- They are Linux in as much as Debian, Red Hat, Slackware or any distribution of Linux is a Linux. They ALL use the Linux kernel as the basis for their operating system and then lay a set of executable code to support the operation of said kernel (i.e. GNU commands on top of Linux, thusly GNU/Linux). If you install Debian or Ubuntu on Android or on Maemo or MeeGo, etc., you're now running a GNU/Linux distribution. Android's code sitting on top of Linux isn't Linux, but neither is Debian's code itself or Red Hat's code itself, for that matter. They each depend on obtaining the Linux kernel in order to run on top of.

I repeat your own words to your comments above :
"but you appear to have technically flawed dismissives and appallingly misconceived explanations with no basis or explanation for them."

I think the Maemo.org debates are useful to everybody learn more what we are using, etc :
- when I wrote :

- iOS & Android are Linux : no, they are not Linux (but have some Unix/Linux pieces);

I should write "Linux distribution" as Android use a (forked) Linux kernel, with the recent Linux 3.3 now including Android contribution to the kernel;
- Google denies that Android is a Linux distribution :
* "In fact, during a presentation at the Google IO conference, Google engineer Patrick Brady stated unambiguously that Android is not Linux";

- the Open Invention Network defintion of Linux system includes more than a thousand packages;

From a programmer's point of view, Linux is approx. the kernel + glibc + X11 window system + libreadline + many other libraries. Without these items, you cannot compile the large majority of Linux softwares from (C/C++) source code. The same source code, apart from dependencies differences, can be compiled on Debian, Fedora, Maemo, etc. Obviously only a smaller subset of softwares can be useful on Maemo due to the need of "hildonizing" the GTK/Qt GUI of the softwares. Take Abiword, Gnumeric, etc, they are available for Maemo, not for Android.

Android has a Linux kernel (forket or not), but :
- no X11 Window manager;
- no glibc compatible (it is bionic, a striped down glibc which is incompatible);
- neither many other Linux distribution components;
so in the end the majority of Linux softwares cannot be compiled to a "vanilla" Android.
I say "vanilla" because there are Android community (so non onfficial) ports of glibc, etc, but you have to root Android, manually install the packages, etc.

I have spent a lot of money in a Asus Transformer TF-101 16GB + Asus Eee Dock. Just to experiment a good Android tablet, the limits of Android, how to develop for it (in Python SL4A), Qt softwares, etc. Even with "Terminal IDE" installed (which includes many Linux softwares like bash, nano, htop, ssh, etc), Android is not a Linux distribution IMHO : no X11, no compatible glibc, no real multitasking, etc. Even IPython is not available due to lack of libreadline...

Conclusion : Android is a Linux based OS but it is not a Linux distribution. Maemo 4 & 5, MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan, Tizen, etc, are Linux distributions because they have Linux kernel, X11, glibc, gcc, etc. IMHO. But everyone have the freedom to have a different opinion.

__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.

Last edited by rcolistete; 2012-05-08 at 23:20.

	danramos	2012-05-08 , 23:58
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#1154

Originally Posted by rcolistete

I repeat your own words to your comments above :
"but you appear to have technically flawed dismissives and appallingly misconceived explanations with no basis or explanation for them."

I think the Maemo.org debates are useful to everybody learn more what we are using, etc :
- when I wrote :

I should write "Linux distribution" as Android use a (forked) Linux kernel, with the recent Linux 3.3 now including Android contribution to the kernel;
- Google denies that Android is a Linux distribution :
* "In fact, during a presentation at the Google IO conference, Google engineer Patrick Brady stated unambiguously that Android is not Linux";

- the Open Invention Network defintion of Linux system includes more than a thousand packages;

From a programmer's point of view, Linux is approx. the kernel + glibc + X11 window system + libreadline + many other libraries. Without these items, you cannot compile the large majority of Linux softwares from (C/C++) source code. The same source code, apart from dependencies differences, can be compiled on Debian, Fedora, Maemo, etc. Obviously only a smaller subset of softwares can be useful on Maemo due to the need of "hildonizing" the GTK/Qt GUI of the softwares. Take Abiword, Gnumeric, etc, they are available for Maemo, not for Android.

Android has a Linux kernel (forket or not), but :
- no X11 Window manager;
- no glibc compatible (it is bionic, a striped down glibc which is incompatible);
- neither many other Linux distribution components;
so in the end the majority of Linux softwares cannot be compiled to a "vanilla" Android.
I say "vanilla" because there are Android community (so non onfficial) ports of glibc, etc, but you have to root Android, manually install the packages, etc.

I have spent a lot of money in a Asus Transformer TF-101 16GB + Asus Eee Dock. Just to experiment a good Android tablet, the limits of Android, how to develop for it (in Python SL4A), Qt softwares, etc. Even with "Terminal IDE" installed (which includes many Linux softwares like bash, nano, htop, ssh, etc), Android is not a Linux distribution IMHO : no X11, no compatible glibc, no real multitasking, etc. Even IPython is not available due to lack of libreadline...

Conclusion : Android is a Linux based OS but it is not a Linux distribution. Maemo 4 & 5, MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan, Tizen, etc, are Linux distributions because they have Linux kernel, X11, glibc, gcc, etc. IMHO. But everyone have the freedom to have a different opinion.

It's incredible how much irrelevant evidence you can present while at the same time be completely wrong by premise.

First off, and this needs to be immediately put out there, since when is X11 related to Linux in any way? Plenty of Linux servers don't have X11 at all. Ubuntu Server doesn't even install it by default and X11 doesn't even touch the kernel beyond talking to the frame buffer drivers like any non-X11 graphical app might. A graphical UI manager like X11 is a whole other layer above the kernel and may or may not necessarily be a part of the operating system.

Secondly, I did point out that Android itself isn't Linux. I also pointed out, rightfully, that Linux distributions (i.e. Debian, Red Hat, Maemo, etc.) aren't Linux either. They are built on top of Linux and thusly labeled as 'Linux distributions'. They are not, themselves, Linux. Android might not be a Linux distribution, but it IS a Linux-based OS in as much as Maemo and MeeGo are. You STILL need to add debian to Android as well as Maemo/MeeGo to get what you would consider a proper GNU/Linux experience.

By the by, X11 is working in Android now:
http://my20percent.wordpress.com/201...roid-x-server/

Does that help blur the lines a little for you?

Lumiaman	2012-05-09 , 00:56
Guest \| Posts: n/a \| Thanked: 0 times \| Joined on	#1155

Hey fatsoo, you are still banging on Nokia. What have they done to you to spew so much gloating hate.

rcolistete	2012-05-09 , 01:21
Posts: 1,269 \| Thanked: 3,961 times \| Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil	#1156

Originally Posted by danramos

It's incredible how much irrelevant evidence you can present while at the same time be completely wrong by premise.

First off, and this needs to be immediately put out there, since when is X11 related to Linux in any way? Plenty of Linux servers don't have X11 at all. Ubuntu Server doesn't even install it by default and X11 doesn't even touch the kernel beyond talking to the frame buffer drivers like any non-X11 graphical app might. A graphical UI manager like X11 is a whole other layer above the kernel and may or may not necessarily be a part of the operating system.

But the Linux server installations use a distribution where the X Windows Manager is available to install. It is your choice. Not on Android.

Linux distribution = Linux kernel + X windows manager + many (GNU) libraries and softwares. Many sources use this definition.

And Linux kernel <> Linux distribution.

Originally Posted by danramos

By the by, X11 is working in Android now:
http://my20percent.wordpress.com/201...roid-x-server/

Does that help blur the lines a little for you?

Yeah, I was aware of this experimental and limited X Windows (from the community) some months ago.

Android is very interesting compared to say, Symbian, due to its Linux origins. But it lacks many Linux features from Maemo/MeeGo.

Last edited by rcolistete; 2012-05-09 at 03:18.

ir.miringila	2012-05-09 , 04:50
Posts: 20 \| Thanked: 19 times \| Joined on Apr 2012 @ alor star	#1157

nokia will not succeed even with full linux distro... what is taking nokia down is they are not inovative as before... worst of marketing strategy where apple have done very well... consumer.. i mean everage people dont want to know or think about multitasking.. the first "smartphone" nokia 7610 i own in the old days cannot even compare with todays smartphones but it was a phenomanon in my places.. for whats? just a 1.3 megapixel camera!!! today people (everage people) want a dual core/quad core processor where nokia lacks. they dont want to know or just dont want to know wether the os is ios,android,maemo or meego. why everage people seems to love apple very much? not because the ios is great. is because the phone is advertising on tv. on magazines, news paper etc very often than other smartphones. if nokia wants to gain back their position they must act like they are a winner. announce the next phone with dual core or even quad core processor. they have to.. if they dont want they must create another type of game... not the so call "ecosystem" game which apple and android strictly a winner.. m$ will never gets into mobile industry like the pc... where consumer (average people) are not told about other os like linux... pc are include with windows as a package at my places.... and win7 stater is ******** . and its the cheapest one!!!! what the ****!! linux is free..

ajalkane	2012-05-09 , 05:23
Posts: 1,313 \| Thanked: 2,977 times \| Joined on Jun 2011 @ Finland	#1158

Originally Posted by danramos

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of 'cooperative multitasking' that the OPERATING SYSTEM decides when to halt and execute running software in a fast "app switching or another funny description" method? The other alternative would be "preemptive multitasking", which is where the APPLICATION decides when to allow another application to be able to have a slice of time and the operating system isn't deciding when to halt and execute running software.

You should refresh your memory about cooperative and preemptive multitasking. Google will help you on that :-). The above description pains my wanna-be geek soul.

__________________
My N9/N950 projects:

Last edited by ajalkane; 2012-05-09 at 05:25.

SamGan	2012-05-09 , 05:25
Posts: 648 \| Thanked: 650 times \| Joined on Oct 2011	#1159

Nokia will not succeed with Win 8 tablets because nobody wants Windows on their tablets. All Window 7 tablets produced have failed so far. MS wanting to leverage their dominance in PC OS to tablets is not possible when consumers have choices. Nobody wants a bloated, buggy, malware and virus infested proprietary OS produced by a greedy monopolistic anti-competitive company on their tablets.

Last edited by SamGan; 2012-05-09 at 05:28.

	danramos	2012-05-09 , 06:15
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#1160

Originally Posted by rcolistete

But the Linux server installations use a distribution where the X Windows Manager is available to install. It is your choice. Not on Android.

Linux distribution = Linux kernel + X windows manager + many (GNU) libraries and softwares. Many sources use this definition.

And Linux kernel <> Linux distribution.

So, Ubuntu server isn't a Linux distribution until you decide to install X11? Or does it just need to be available? Does that mean Android is now a Linux distribution thanks to that X11 project being AVAILABLE for Android? You seem to be playing some odd game of semantics that doesn't really seem to fit a solid explanation or definition.

Originally Posted by rcolistete

Yeah, I was aware of this experimental and limited X Windows (from the community) some months ago.

I was also aware of Maemo/MeeGo's limited features as well--it still seems to need the further installation of Debian and libraries to still satisfy much of your definition of a Linux operating system.

Originally Posted by rcolistete

Android is very interesting compared to say, Symbian, due to its Linux origins. But it lacks many Linux features from Maemo/MeeGo.

Maemo/MeeGo is very interesting compared to say, Windows Phone, due to its Linux origins. But it lacks many, many MORE Linux features from Android. (What version of the Linux kernel are you up to on Maemo/MeeGo, now?)

Originally Posted by Lumiaman

Hey fatsoo, you are still banging on Nokia. What have they done to you to spew so much gloating hate.

Seeing as how I'm an American, I can understand your assumption that I'm probably fat--but isn't that coming from you very much like the much bigger, fatter pot calling the kettle black?

Last time I checked, this IS the Nokia stock thread, right? You have something positive to add to this discussion about Nokia's fortunes? Please contribute! I'm sure we all look forward to hearing some more of your incredibly hilarious and optimistic outlook for Nokia's future.

Please, go on...

Originally Posted by ajalkane

You should refresh your memory about cooperative and preemptive multitasking. Google will help you on that :-). The above description pains my wanna-be geek soul.

It clearly didn't pain you enough to humor my request to please correct me if I was wrong. Go ahead and explain your understanding of cooperative versus preemptive in the context of operating systems controls.

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