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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (6)
to General by Kalatti - 2 days, 9 hrs ago -
Full linux distros on Sailfish OS (253)
to SailfishOS by qoh - 5 days, 3 hrs ago - more...
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2010-05-07
, 16:45
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Posts: 232 |
Thanked: 102 times |
Joined on Nov 2009
@ Warren, MI, USA
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#52
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1. What market? Are you talking only about PC's? Or in general? Linux and GNU tools have permeated many markets already. What's running under the hood on Android phones? WebOS? Your TiVO? Your wireless router? The Linux kernel is running on more stuff than you think it is. The PC market and Windows is only one small slice of the pie.
2. Well if we're talking about desktops, then I suppose whenever Windows becomes so bloated that you can't run it without having the fastest machine possible. It already somewhat is, but people are still buying.
3. Major vendor support, for both hardware and software.
4. Linux Mint...which is essentially Ubuntu...which is really Debian.
2. Well if we're talking about desktops, then I suppose whenever Windows becomes so bloated that you can't run it without having the fastest machine possible. It already somewhat is, but people are still buying.
3. Major vendor support, for both hardware and software.
4. Linux Mint...which is essentially Ubuntu...which is really Debian.
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2010-05-07
, 17:06
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Posts: 1,751 |
Thanked: 844 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Sweden
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#53
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Originally Posted by southwalesboy
If you don't want to change anything you don't need to. The updates and security patches will come automatically. You don't either need to find drivers.. the OS finds them for you. But if you do want to personalize. Then it is very easy. Just find your theme and drag it onto the theme manager.. done. In windows you might need to hack the system to be able to get what you want. I am not sure what is easier..
I dont know if Linux ever will take the PC market stranglehold from Microsoft, for years now I have ventured to linux periodically to see how things are maturing, but I almost always destroy my Ubuntu OS within a month and head straight back to windows. I consider my self quite technically minded (far more so than general users). And with all the different linux builds and distros etc there's too much variability, most people need reliability and consistency over the ability to tweak their OS to hell and back.
HOWEVER! open source future most likely lies with handheld and niche devices, they can quicker impliment specialised UI's. For touch screens/surfaces/ mobile devices etc. and as mobile computing becomes more and more important, linux saturation in these emerging devices will mean that almost all general consumers will have an open source encounter on a daily base (Weather it be their netbook/mobile/car AV system etc) but not so much their main home computer
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2010-05-07
, 17:27
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Posts: 362 |
Thanked: 143 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
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#54
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Originally Posted by ZShakespeare
Sorry? Are there no 'install' or 'unstable' issue with other OS? By the way, before anyone talk about how 'supportable' the other OS is, I wonder the same people has really made the call to the respective official support center to determine the quality of support and etc?
I'm glad that your father is an exception. He's lucky to have managed to avoid all the known issues that come with every new Ubuntu release that make the system uninstallable or otherwise unusable.
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2010-05-07
, 17:45
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Posts: n/a |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on
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#55
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Originally Posted by AlMehdi
It used to run on SGI's IRIX. So I know that Adobe knows *nix. The lack of want though is the problem.
Yes, Gimp is not Photoshop and would not suffice for proffesionals. It is more than enough competent average users though. As photoshop runs best on another *nix-like system it probably not be to hard to port it if enough ppl want it.
Flint i am not aware of...
but 3DSMAX have a competitor called Blender. Of what i understand they are comparable. Blender have been used in movie productions.
But this is where I'm a creature of habit... 3DS Max just suits my modeling style. Same for Modo - which is Win or OS X. But Blender, while great, I'll be too slow initially.
After OpenGL 4.0 the games on Linux are on par featurewise with Directx 11. So they would be able to look as nice on Linux as they would on Windows.
The problem is that most popular games are not released on linux... yet. Many things are on the move though and more and more game developers open up for linux. Have been reading som nice things.
Most windows games can also be run trough Wine, Cedega or VMware. Not all though and not the latest. And there are existing som great native linux games too.
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2010-05-07
, 19:03
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Posts: 307 |
Thanked: 157 times |
Joined on Jul 2009
@ Illinois, USA
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#56
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As a computer scientist, Linux is interesting for its Unix roots and as a source of code to look at for ideas and solutions to problems.
As a developer, there is no substitute for Visual Studio 2008, and the beta 2010 has me only using 2008 when I need to create 2008 .sln files to send files to other people not using the 2010 beta.
Also as a developer, C# is one of the best languages ever created. Hands down. If you are dissing it, you obviously haven't used it or you are working on projects close to the metal. Even for those projects though, this might prove you wrong.
As a political scientist, I wonder about the overt socialist nature of the GPL and wonder if the same problems that brought down socialist governments will bring down or restrict the adoption of socialist software.
As a gamer, I have absolutely no use for Linux. People who say they use their consoles are only getting 1/3rd of the possible gaming experience. Windows computers are the best gaming machines known to man. If you disagree with this, you obviously haven't tried PC gaming.
As just an end-user, I hate the Ubuntu interface. KDE is much more to my liking. Even still, the Linux directory structure is confusing and downright stupid. This makes doing simple file tasks hard.
Under Windows I know that my programs will always be under C:\Program Files. Under linux, the executable itself will be in one place, the startup script in a completely different place, and other files will be god knows where. Not only that, but between different distributions, sure there's the same basic directories, but they put the program files in different directories than other distributions. Its crazy.
Finally, as a tech geek with an eye on the future, I wonder whether Linux's chances at widespread non-server/embedded will survive the era of cloud computing. You can be guaranteed that Microsoft will have a cloud ecosystem and that linux will not be a part of that. Microsoft has the money to fund a massive cloud ecosystem. Where will linux get that money from to build and run a similar (knocked-off) cloud ecosystem to give linux users all the great things that Windows user will enjoy?
Food for though.
Last edited by mmurfin87; 2010-05-07 at 19:03. Reason: spelling correction
As a developer, there is no substitute for Visual Studio 2008, and the beta 2010 has me only using 2008 when I need to create 2008 .sln files to send files to other people not using the 2010 beta.
Also as a developer, C# is one of the best languages ever created. Hands down. If you are dissing it, you obviously haven't used it or you are working on projects close to the metal. Even for those projects though, this might prove you wrong.
As a political scientist, I wonder about the overt socialist nature of the GPL and wonder if the same problems that brought down socialist governments will bring down or restrict the adoption of socialist software.
As a gamer, I have absolutely no use for Linux. People who say they use their consoles are only getting 1/3rd of the possible gaming experience. Windows computers are the best gaming machines known to man. If you disagree with this, you obviously haven't tried PC gaming.
As just an end-user, I hate the Ubuntu interface. KDE is much more to my liking. Even still, the Linux directory structure is confusing and downright stupid. This makes doing simple file tasks hard.
Under Windows I know that my programs will always be under C:\Program Files. Under linux, the executable itself will be in one place, the startup script in a completely different place, and other files will be god knows where. Not only that, but between different distributions, sure there's the same basic directories, but they put the program files in different directories than other distributions. Its crazy.
Finally, as a tech geek with an eye on the future, I wonder whether Linux's chances at widespread non-server/embedded will survive the era of cloud computing. You can be guaranteed that Microsoft will have a cloud ecosystem and that linux will not be a part of that. Microsoft has the money to fund a massive cloud ecosystem. Where will linux get that money from to build and run a similar (knocked-off) cloud ecosystem to give linux users all the great things that Windows user will enjoy?
Food for though.
Last edited by mmurfin87; 2010-05-07 at 19:03. Reason: spelling correction
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2010-05-07
, 20:21
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Posts: 455 |
Thanked: 782 times |
Joined on Nov 2009
@ Netherlands
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#57
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Originally Posted by xomm
Linux as a kernel already is - I'd bet you that it's on more devices than Windows and MacOS X combined - at least half of the servers out there run Linux, same goes for many embeded devices (routers, tvs, box-sets...). Linux as a complete OS, how most people know of it - i.e. GNU/Linux w/ X.Org based GUI - is at current state more than capable of being a competition to the aforementioned OSes, but it lacks market penetration and still suffers from plenty of setbacks for your average Joe. It may become once some of those are fixed, which I'll list later...
1. Do you think Linux will ever become a major contender in the OS market? i.e. People in general will seriously consider whether to buy a PC with Windows or Linux?
Originally Posted by xomm
As I said, it already is... But for desktop penetration, if the points mentioned bellow are taken care of, not less than at least 2 years in the future (after the main disadvantages are fixed). Given that Linux is actually on a high-roll at present, 2015 should be a realistic prediction.
2. If so, when do you think it will?
Originally Posted by xomm
Sadly, the biggest strength of the Linux platform - it's modularity and many-ways-to-skin-a-cat approach - is at the same time its biggest weakness when it comes desktop penetration. There are hundreds of distributions out there, and each team behind those is convinced to a point of zealotry that their approach is the right one. That makes it hard for regular users to get appropriate support, and that's what scares off even seasoned computer enthusiasts.
3. What are the main obstacles?
What should be done is to have at least one way of doing things that is the same on each Linux distro out there. That doesn't mean that other ways shouldn't exist for those that prefer them, but that one fall-back should be present in every Linux distro. It should include library locations, config locations, folder structure, common tools, package management, GUI, APIs and such things so that you can build and install the same software on each general (as in mass-market use) Linux distro no matter of its name or its philosophy. And that `core` system should be called something like Vanilla Linux, on top of which distributions could contend on how to make it better for the end users. If they want to go astray from those guidelines in a way that the both systems cannot be supported, they should at least offer an option to install it in `Vanilla` mode.
Now, how to get all those teams behind different distros to agree on a common structure is a subject on its own. I personally think that the main role of The Linux Foundation should be that - to put them all on the same table and force them to iron-out the common structure. If TLF cannot do that, there is no point in its existence.
Apart from the fragmentation, there are a couple of other major issues with the Linux platform
- Proprietary drivers support. I currently have 3 devices that cannot properly work under Linux even tho they do not require complex drivers (mainly Logitech stuff
) - Lack of proper support. Forums and blogs are not good enough for average Joes. They'd gladly pay some premium for to have somebody to blame when their system breaks down.
- Most schools don't teach anything else than Windows, and for plenty of people that's the first encounter with computer tech.
- Lack of consistency. While remedied by commercial distributions of Linux such as Red Hat, Linux is still considered in an experimental state where things can change completely from version to version. Regular users cannot keep with that pace.
- Serious lack of commercial, professional software. While there are areas in which Linux can compete, plenty of professional software is just missing. Truth to be told, Linux fragmentation has a lot to do with discouraging large software houses to develop for Linux.
However, before fixing the main problem - uncontrolled fragmentation - I don't see how any of those will get fixed.
Originally Posted by xomm
Ubuntu is currently the main contender (mainly because of the money pushed into it by Canonical), but who knows what the future will bring. I kind-of secretly cheer for Fedora as it's probably the most well-rounded distro to offer KDE. I ain't going back to GNOME no matter what, and Kubuntu is just not on par with Fedora's offering. Even tho Fedora as well secretly forces GNOME, they do a really god job on the KDE part.
4. (Purely theoretical) What distribution (from the current set) do you think will come out on top, if any?
Originally Posted by Venemo
You gotta be kidding us
2) Almost complete lack of top-of-the-line development environments and platform.
Most people who develop for Linux still argue about whether to use C or C++ (or some weird interpreted scripting language), while development is WAY easier on Windows.
There is no friendlier environment for a developer than Linux. None. With Linux you have almost complete control over your software. You can even go down to the OS level and make adjustments you want to make your software better.
Originally Posted by Venemo
Until we develop AI, there will be no JIT that will execute better or faster than native, targeted code. Try writing a system driver in a JITed environment.
This is not true.
Yes, you can use C/C++ and VS still supports it. .NET is not crap. After JITting it, it is ofter faster that native code. (of course only if it is done well)
Originally Posted by Venemo
Let me introduce you to the magical world of Eclipse IDE, what it offers in terms of editing, refactoring, code-completion, tight-integration, 3rd party plugins and such is second to none. Of course, it all depends on language/platform you want to develop in and how well it's integration is written, but when it comes to Java development in it, VS's feature set doesn't come even close.
And about the productivity of the ".net crap":
VS offers a very nice code completion feature which I haven't seen (or not as sophisticated) in any other environments.
Further, here is my personal experience with VS (granted the Express version): How Microsoft ruined my day. And since you've already answered there that many .NET developers agree with me that the VS is crap, I now wonder what it is - crap or the best IDE ever?
Originally Posted by Venemo
Again, the Eclipse IDE + Qt Eclipse Integration for C++. Or you can use any editor you like. Or, if you are that much rigid to not want to learn how to use alternatives to VS, you can use Qt Visual Studio Add-in.
Do you know any besides Qt Creator with which I can develop for the N900 with Qt?
__________________
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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2010-05-07
, 20:42
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Posts: 609 |
Thanked: 243 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Eastern USA
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#58
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Originally Posted by wheelybird
I totally agree. For many of the IT classes at my school, you must have a Microsoft Office Cerification (which must be obtained through a one year course) to be eligible. Otherwise, you must appeal through AOIT (Academy of Info Tech).
This problem is exacerbated by schools teaching IT literacy, but only on Windows.
I'm quite disappointed at this; A friend and I got in trouble for "hacking the school computers." We were writing .spec files with notepad++ in fullscreen...
Advocating the knowledge of Linux is the main objective, in my opinion. "Noobifying" it would be the second priority. Example: A friend asks me to play so and so game. I state that I don't use Windows. They say "Oh, it works on Mac too." I say I don't have a Mac. They get confused, and ask further about what I'm talking about. I begin to explain by saying that it's a different operating system. They get more confused. I explain what an operating system is. They dismiss me as a geek and leave. Even a simple explaination like "Windows and Mac are two diff OSes, and that Linux is an alt. to Windows," will turn people away.
For the "what platform" comments, the first post dicusses PC end users. I am well aware of the Linux kernel's presence in other computing markets, especially mobile, embedded, and server uses.
P.S.: I apologize for any typos/grammatical mistakes in advance. I'm typing this out on my N900 while reading.
__________________
==In school once again. Free time limited to night, holidays and weekends.==
Hi! I'm Andy, a Maemo Greeter! I'm also a moderator of the Applications, Nokia N900, and Maemo 5/Fremantle forums.
Useful Links: Maemo Wiki Main Page, New users start here, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Also, pin yourself in the map! Maemo Map. Send me a PM (Private Message) if I leave you hanging on a problem (or if you need more help).
Owner of both a N800 and N900; Active community member since Jan 2010. You've been xommified! - My blog.
==In school once again. Free time limited to night, holidays and weekends.==
Hi! I'm Andy, a Maemo Greeter!
I'm also a moderator of the Applications, Nokia N900, and Maemo 5/Fremantle forums. Useful Links: Maemo Wiki Main Page, New users start here, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Also, pin yourself in the map! Maemo Map. Send me a PM (Private Message) if I leave you hanging on a problem (or if you need more help).
Owner of both a N800 and N900; Active community member since Jan 2010. You've been xommified! - My blog.
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2010-05-07
, 20:56
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Posts: 1,746 |
Thanked: 2,100 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
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#59
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Originally Posted by mmurfin87
C# strikes me as nothing special, simply a C-style syntax with some features adopted from functional languages. Not a bad language, but nothing special either. All the magic lies in the .NET libraries, and even then there are lots of other languages with included frameworks that have been around much longer.
Also as a developer, C# is one of the best languages ever created. Hands down. If you are dissing it, you obviously haven't used it or you are working on projects close to the metal.
As a political scientist, I wonder about the overt socialist nature of the GPL and wonder if the same problems that brought down socialist governments will bring down or restrict the adoption of socialist software.
Works great for software, not so much for government it seems.
As a gamer, I have absolutely no use for Linux. People who say they use their consoles are only getting 1/3rd of the possible gaming experience. Windows computers are the best gaming machines known to man. If you disagree with this, you obviously haven't tried PC gaming.
Even still, the Linux directory structure is confusing and downright stupid. This makes doing simple file tasks hard.
Under Windows I know that my programs will always be under C:\Program Files. Under linux, the executable itself will be in one place, the startup script in a completely different place, and other files will be god knows where. Not only that, but between different distributions, sure there's the same basic directories, but they put the program files in different directories than other distributions. Its crazy.
It differs slightly between OSes, but it has a logical basis that pretty much every *nix style OS shares.
Finally, as a tech geek with an eye on the future, I wonder whether Linux's chances at widespread non-server/embedded will survive the era of cloud computing.
You can be guaranteed that Microsoft will have a cloud ecosystem and that linux will not be a part of that. Microsoft has the money to fund a massive cloud ecosystem. Where will linux get that money from to build and run a similar (knocked-off) cloud ecosystem to give linux users all the great things that Windows user will enjoy?
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2010-05-07
, 21:53
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Posts: 670 |
Thanked: 747 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ Kansas City, Missouri, USA
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#60
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Whoaaa...this has gotten into all kinds of stuff...'socialist' software, Gnome vs KDE (I hate 'em both) C# vs C++ vs - well, pick a language (not touching any of that) Direct X vs Open GL (Open GL kills Direct X - don't ask me why) and much more to poke each other over.
I am gonna take another stab at one thing though. The Cloud and it's meaning for linux.
That said, I do see a positive to cloud computing.
mmurfin 87 said:
But IMHO he's wrong. Not that Monkey Boy Ballmer won't try to control things, he will. But M$ will fail to keep out the linux riff-raff. Because one thing about the cloud: to succeed it will have to be OS agnostic. It will need to be accessible by Win, OS-X, MeeGo, Android, Chrome OS - whatever OS your home, business or mobile device is running. wramorne is right that "Linux is simply a tool to be used by others." But then so is any other OS. It's just some tools are open and free and some aren't.
IOW, Google has the future figured out: eventually, the OS will not matter and everything will live in the Cloud. M$ will not be able to effectively counter that reality and keep users locked into an all-M$ ecosystem. It may take 25 years - and probably will - but M$ will fall like all closed systems eventually do. A viable ecosystem will have to be an open ecosystem.
Now, for several reasons I really hate that Google is right about the cloudy future of computing. I especially hate the obvious Big Brother aspect of cloud services. But thinking very long-term, it will happen and it will break the back of M$, Apple and other closed-system companies.
I am gonna take another stab at one thing though. The Cloud and it's meaning for linux.
Originally Posted by wmarone
Exactly. Like I said before regarding cloud computing - you can't trust it, you can't depend on it, and you don't control it. Triple FAIL. Given a choice about the Cloud, I don't.
...Linux is simply a tool to be used by others. IIRC, Amazon's EC2 and all of Google's stuff runs on Linux, thus you immediately have competition in the "cloud computing" space (which is completely not to be trusted.)
That said, I do see a positive to cloud computing.
mmurfin 87 said:
You can be guaranteed that Microsoft will have a cloud ecosystem and that linux will not be a part of that.
IOW, Google has the future figured out: eventually, the OS will not matter and everything will live in the Cloud. M$ will not be able to effectively counter that reality and keep users locked into an all-M$ ecosystem. It may take 25 years - and probably will - but M$ will fall like all closed systems eventually do. A viable ecosystem will have to be an open ecosystem.
Now, for several reasons I really hate that Google is right about the cloudy future of computing. I especially hate the obvious Big Brother aspect of cloud services. But thinking very long-term, it will happen and it will break the back of M$, Apple and other closed-system companies.
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Registered Linux user #266531.
Registered Linux user #266531.
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