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	qgil	2012-04-05 , 14:23
	Posts: 3,105 \| Thanked: 11,088 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)	#781

Also, there seems to be a bit of confusion about who can access and who can fix the packages interface - http://maemo.org/packages . Again, you don't need to wait for a Council to help on that.

http://trac.midgard-project.org/brow...maemo.packages + find + fix + diff + patch... Old open development process applies.

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	Estel	2012-04-05 , 16:06
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#782

Originally Posted by qgil

A comment on what I though the Council is NOT:

* maemo.org is an open community based on a meritocracy. People with especial permissions have got their merits somehow - usually being good and dedicated at something during a long time. The merit of Council members is to be elected for a period of 6 months. Any other merit a Council member has is because s/he has won it with hard work on something else.

* The Council is not the community driver, but a problem solver. When other drivers in the community get stuck on something there is no way to agree with between people, they try to find a solution path through the Council. But the Council itself is not assigned as such to any project - except to the "project Council" itself. Whatever projects are the Council members involved are their own projects and their own involvement.

* Being a Council member and getting especial permissions granted in the maemo.org server infrastructure are not automatically connected. Anybody helping and contributing to the infrastructure has the potential to get all permissions after going through the steps in between.

* Being a Council member and approving or pulling apps in Testing are not automatically connected. A different thing would be a situation where the Testing team finds an app should be exceptionally approved or pulled, and they just seek a "community blessing" through the council.

Who got right to start referendum about changing core things related to Maemo community (i.e. voting process, transfer to self-governed legal entity etc). I always thought that it's Council, so it isn't entirely true, that Council mandate is to only manage "Project Council". "Project Maemo" get also influenced.

/Estel

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jcharpak	2012-04-05 , 17:11
Posts: 196 \| Thanked: 141 times \| Joined on Aug 2007	#783

Originally Posted by qgil

Also, there seems to be a bit of confusion about who can access and who can fix the packages interface - http://maemo.org/packages . Again, you don't need to wait for a Council to help on that.

http://trac.midgard-project.org/brow...maemo.packages + find + fix + diff + patch... Old open development process applies.

But if someone designs the patch will it actually be applied?

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timoph	2012-04-05 , 17:18
Posts: 415 \| Thanked: 732 times \| Joined on Jan 2009 @ Finland	#784

Originally Posted by Estel

Who got right to start referendum about changing core things related to Maemo community (i.e. voting process, transfer to self-governed legal entity etc). I always thought that it's Council, so it isn't entirely true, that Council mandate is to only manage "Project Council". "Project Maemo" get also influenced.

/Estel

Yes. the council doesn't have power to control the community like that. see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council (somethings there might not be relevant anymore)

So I'd say the council's big thing for the near future is to keep itself relevant by communication, helping projects (not by writing code or fixing their bugs) and making sure that the community is a good place to be in whether one works on a small or big community project, is just an end-user or whatnot. These are things that anyone interested in the community's welfare can and should help with. This includes making sure that we don't end up in a situation like this anymore (QA and project problems).

I'd argue that the current technical problems can be resolved before the next election. One doesn't need to be in the council to participate in the discussions and offer proposals to how to get things on the roll again.

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lma	2012-04-05 , 18:21
Posts: 2,802 \| Thanked: 4,491 times \| Joined on Nov 2007	#785

Originally Posted by qgil

Also, there seems to be a bit of confusion about who can access and who can fix the packages interface - http://maemo.org/packages . Again, you don't need to wait for a Council to help on that.

http://trac.midgard-project.org/brow...maemo.packages + find + fix + diff + patch... Old open development process applies.

Code is a start, but code alone for something like this isn't enough. Is there also some documentation on how to set up a local environment for development (ie the whole maemo.org midgard scaffolding, integration with repositories, database schemas etc)?

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	Estel	2012-04-05 , 19:30
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#786

Originally Posted by timoph

Yes. the council doesn't have power to control the community like that. see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council (somethings there might not be relevant anymore)

Wait. you're telling us, that some thing from wiki page aren't relevant anymore, cause Nokia changed it (i.e. "hiring personel to manage maemo.org") without asking anyone, yet, Council can't change anything even via referendum?

Sorry, I'm not buying that. Trying to arbitrary reduce Council from Community representatives to "walking telegrams" is just pushing Communtiy further into forking ideas. Unless I misunderstood what You're trying to say.

In my opinion, state of Council being relevant or not depends totally on Community support for it. If Community will be willing to take path, that Council is supporting, yet don't have (legal) right in current state, Maemo Community will just fork itself, into organization with steering group or whatsnot.

Similarly, Council can have upperpowa rights granted, yet, without Community accepting and following way the Council is doing job, there won't be any effect on Community.
---

For me, referendum is great tool to have, that should be used in case of important and path-forming decisions. No one have right to tell Community "no, voting what you'll do isn't Your right". Of course, tools (like voting process) need someone to manage it, and who should do it if not Council?

/Estel

Last edited by Estel; 2012-04-05 at 22:37.

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	qgil	2012-04-05 , 21:01
	Posts: 3,105 \| Thanked: 11,088 times \| Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)	#787

fwiw I was trying to remind about the original purpose of the Council, not trying to deviate it out of somewhere.

In any case referendums only work after extensive discussions not leading to consensus in the first place.

So the first question is: what power are you missing for the Council?

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	misterc	2012-04-05 , 22:16
	Posts: 1,625 \| Thanked: 998 times \| Joined on Aug 2010	#788

Originally Posted by qgil

Also, there seems to be a bit of confusion about who can access and who can fix the packages interface - http://maemo.org/packages . Again, you don't need to wait for a Council to help on that.

http://trac.midgard-project.org/brow...maemo.packages + find + fix + diff + patch... Old open development process applies.

This interface is currently in beta, so things might not work as expected.

that's promising

or is it?

anyway, i think the problem here is less technical (promoting stable packages from -devel or even -testing to extras or fixing packages which are not) then organizational i.e. checking which packages are actually orphaned (in whichever way) and communicating with Niels (or any other person able to change ownership if owner is not available anymore)
obviously, someone has to pick it up, but expecting individual developers to do that and getting anywhere is either disillusioned or complete naive

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	misterc	2012-04-05 , 22:30
	Posts: 1,625 \| Thanked: 998 times \| Joined on Aug 2010	#789

Originally Posted by Estel

Who got right to start referendum about changing core things related to Maemo community (i.e. voting process, transfer to self-governed legal entity etc). I always thought that it's Council, so it isn't entirely true, that Council mandate is to only manage "Project Council". "Project Maemo" get also influenced.

/Estel

Estel,

did it ever occur to you that Maemo is not -- repeat not -- a free software, but a (pseudo-)commercial project of a company?
they simply do not want to release it.
if the community supports it, no matter how messy and disorganized it is, fine.
otherwise... feel free to leave.

i'm not telling you to leave, but NOKIA is not going to let go of Maemo. if you don't like this idea and would rather create a FOSS project, you will either have to start more or less from scratch or indeed cause a scission of the community

along the line of what happened with Symbian... ppl are becoming unsure of the future and decide to leave it, no matter how good the latest iterations / efforts are

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	Estel	2012-04-05 , 22:47
	Posts: 5,028 \| Thanked: 8,613 times \| Joined on Mar 2011	#790

Originally Posted by qgil

fwiw I was trying to remind about the original purpose of the Council, not trying to deviate it out of somewhere.

In any case referendums only work after extensive discussions not leading to consensus in the first place.

So the first question is: what power are you missing for the Council?

Thanks for clarification, although my post was rather referring to timoph comment:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=784

For now, I'm not missing any power for Council - I'm rather trying to figure out, what exactly Council can do (or not) from "formal" point of view. I.E. who is entitled to create referendum, if not Council?

After all, one of initial Council responsibilities, was to present Community ("azimuth") stance to Nokia, and to talk/negotiate about main Community concerns, that might be addressed by Nokia (often working in collaboration with Council or certain individualities).

This may seems less relevant now - unfortunately - due to limited resources Nokia is wanting to invest in Maemo Community - no one blames You here, it's just a fact.

Yet, to effectively use resources that we have - to Community best interest - it's important to have Council as true Community representatives, i.e. people that know about most important/potent projects going on in the community, issues found there, etc. This way, developers time isn't wasted and they can actually write the code, while having people that they trust speaking on their behalf about infrastructure, roadblocks etc. At least, this is how it looks from my point of view.

So, "project Council" is ok, but with much higher doze of "representatives". Do not confuse with "politics"