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maacruz is offline maacruz
2008-10-05 , 20:05
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#21
Originally Posted by igor View Post
There are people also inside our organization pointing to this 5s holy grail. I will say here what i said internally (not that my word is any authoritative, but I'll still say it :-) ).

********.

There is certainly a point in making the device to boot faster, but look who's talking about it. Intel. Why? Because their current HW sucks in terms of power management, so you _are_ expected to switch it on and off continuously, then of course it is important to not wait forever for X to show up.
Instead of looking that it benefits everybody, you are worried because it benefits intel. If that logic were to be followed, then never would be improvements, because they benefit your neighbour.
Removing modules and going for a single kernel binary? Yeah, right!
This for example would mean that we should start shipping different kernels for n800 and n810. But what is more important, we would have he problem of debugging the thing (you don't want to use in R&D something that is not shipped to production) and go back to the pain experienced till now.
You can ship the same kernel. The basic idea is to ship the modules you always need in the kernel and keep the rest as modules. And still, what makes most difference, is sReadAhead.
In this sense Fremantle is a huge improvement since we are enforcing drivers to be modular and this allows the creation and usage of tools like the pm-tester i posted about.
Nice, but... as already has been posted... what about the N8x0 tablets?
If energies have to be put into making the device more efficient, they should be focused on stability, so that the user doesn't have to actually powercycle.

Since 770 we were supposed to be always on, then it became always on, always connected. I see no point in following something that we have obsoleted more than 3 years ago.
Nice goal too, but, unfortunately, power cycles are unavoidable (the watchdog may powercycle simply because there is too much system load).
So, I don't see how having also this goal, fast boot, may conflict with any other goal. I think this goal is worth to keep, and at least see how it evolves in the major distros, and copy whatever is worth to.
 
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igor is offline igor
2008-10-05 , 20:36
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#22
Originally Posted by maacruz View Post
So, I don't see how having also this goal, fast boot, may conflict with any other goal. I think this goal is worth to keep, and at least see how it evolves in the major distros, and copy whatever is worth to.
I am stating that, having a finite amount of resources and time, they should be used where they can be more effective.

Which is not boot time.

Even on my laptop i have uptimes of weeks/months so i don't care about boottime because most of the optimization is not involved in suspend/resume to ram.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-10-05 , 20:42
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#23
Originally Posted by maacruz View Post
Instead of looking that it benefits everybody, you are worried because it benefits intel. If that logic were to be followed, then never would be improvements, because they benefit your neighbour.
No, you missed igor's point: Intel HAS to focus on something like 5s boot time, to take eyes off areas like power management where they don't perform so well.

Every product has its selling point(s).
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Peet is offline Peet
2008-10-05 , 20:42
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#24
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
As has been said many times before, it's still unknown.
Well it was Igor (Nokia) after all who brought up Fremantle in the current context of maacrux's N810 booting in 33 seconds.

FWIW, I fully respect Igor's work and presence here on ITT, but general Linux advancements like in the case of the 5-second boot needn't even be tied to Maemo 5 (Fremantle) and its planned fancy GUI, unless the N8*0-series is facing uncertain future without any continued developer support by Nokia.

Near-instant booting would naturally be wonderful, but I'd be happier if the N8*0 platform remained properly supported for another year or two.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-10-05 , 20:47
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#25
I'd also like to chime in on the whole "5 seconds as the goal" bit.

Plucking a number that sounds good from thin air and then making that a goal can lead to serious unintended consequences. A little better to shoot for % improvement, although even measures like that have to be re-evaluated and retuned with every iteration due to diminishing returns.

I'd rather the team just focus on removing any and all inefficiences where possible and practical, and let the boot seconds fall where they may.

EDIT: hey igor, I'm on YOUR time now-- go to bed!
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igor is offline igor
2008-10-05 , 21:00
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#26
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
EDIT: hey igor, I'm on YOUR time now-- go to bed!
Sleep is overrated :-D

And anyway I still have some work to do, but if you are in Ruoholahti this week, feel free to drop by, A504.
 
maacruz is offline maacruz
2008-10-05 , 21:14
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#27
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
No, you missed igor's point: Intel HAS to focus on something like 5s boot time, to take eyes off areas like power management where they don't perform so well.

Every product has its selling point(s).
Let's suppose that is correct. They make 5 s boot time happen to keep eyes off power management, then every distro moves to 5-10 s boot times and then... we are looking at power management again. That could buy them a few months at most. Ah, and those who refuse to boot fast will look bad (a non-selling point?).
Fast boot is still in its infancy, but soon will mature and will be everywhere (yes, many people turn their computers and devices off when not in use), so my point is to keep an eye on it and make use of it when it is ready.
 
gammer is offline gammer
2008-10-05 , 22:36
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#28
Whether it's needed or not (should not!) - fast boot (and in particular a 5s boot) would be really impressive, and it would be a sign of intellectual power
 

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Benson is offline Benson
2008-10-06 , 01:41
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#29
I agree that this isn't the right priority -- for Nokia.

Hopefully though, people who like this will be able to submit improvements that help with boot time before the Fremantle release. It harms nobody, helps some people, and makes some people just plain happy about the coolness; if some of the people for whom it is a high priority can make it happen, everyone wins.
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igor is offline igor
2008-10-06 , 01:46
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#30
Originally Posted by Benson View Post
if some of the people for whom it is a high priority can make it happen, everyone wins.
That would be proof that there is a lively community.
This sort of activity doesn't require any information unavailable due to NDAs.
 

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