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Poll: How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB
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How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB

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dr_frost_dk's Avatar
Posts: 1,466 | Thanked: 2,544 times | Joined on Oct 2010 @ Denmark, not far from redkarma
#2131
Also remember that there is no plan to build 100,000 units, just like the pandore this is a special custom job and it costs bigger $ then what a vendor like samsung can do when making 1,000,000+ units of a galaxy phone.

Just like some kids once asked me, 'can you make a gameboy?' (this was some time back hehe), and as i said to them yes i probably can but it will cost many times more then a new one....

Now the Neo900 will of course be NO WHERE NEAR a old galaxy phone in terms of performance but it is not so much the performance we are after but a combination of that and the freedom that comes with the Neo, to have a custom and free phone in the form factor we come to love, having a keyboard (something that is REALLY scares these days), having all the stuff like we have in the N900 but with more and more performance.

We all would be thrilled if it could be done for 300Euro but i look at it this way, i got my N900 back in 2010 and i paid 400Euro at that point, it has been my phone all this time and still works just fine today, now the Neo upgrade will be more costly but it i can have a phone for 4+ years that i will enjoy as much as i have done with the N900 then the price is not that high, we properly all have those friends that get a new phone every year or sooner and that's a MUCH higher price then what i see in this upgrade.
 

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ste-phan's Avatar
Posts: 1,121 | Thanked: 2,479 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Hanoi
#2132
Originally Posted by dr_frost_dk View Post
but it i can have a phone for 4+ years that i will enjoy as much as i have done with the N900 then the price is not that high, we properly all have those friends that get a new phone every year or sooner and that's a MUCH higher price then what i see in this upgrade.
IMO, we can't compare a NeoN900 user case ownership cost to the cost related to the update patterns followed by smartphone consumers.

Some consumers would be happy to see their phone drop, get lost or stolen to find the perfect excuse to "upgrade" (read: purchase more display pixels, flatter device, faster processor core - same dull OS)

One of the reasons the the N900 has such a small RAM size is that Nokia was always weary to create the one device to rule them all for the next 10 years to come. Since the Neo900 is bound to take that away its life cycle is supposed to be much longer.

As a potential NeoN900 user the extra cost is the burden of having to babysit the device into good shape as if it were the last and only of its kind until Mobile data on GSM network becomes totally obsolete and maybe longer.

Currently I own enough parts for the N900 to be able to get on with my life the moment one N900 would be dropping out.

I don't have the budget for creating the same redundancy "peace of mind" buffer with Neo900

We can't expect mint Neo900 to be found on eBay 5 years from now (suppose it releases in 2015) for 1/10th of the launch price

If I were to own one spare backup, and I think that is the only sensible way to invest in the Neo900, the cost increases a lot.

So there are the two issues I have to follow carefully before donating to the Neo900 project.

-the above - it is risky to own an N900 - one day you have it all, the next you are borrowing your friends discarded Nexus. Would it not be better to sell everybody a double motherboard from the start and would that reduce the price to less than current price for two separate units?

-Fremantle is a requirement as the most user friendly mobile OS to date.
 

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#2133
Originally Posted by ste-phan View Post
Currently I own enough parts for the N900 to be able to get on with my life the moment one N900 would be dropping out.
I don't have the budget for creating the same redundancy "peace of mind" buffer with Neo900
(...)
Would it not be better to sell everybody a double motherboard from the start and would that reduce the price to less than current price for two separate units?
I second this.
I wouldn't feel safe without having a spare Neo900 (like many of us, I suppose), but I probably will not have enough money to buy two from the start.
That's sad because the "per device" cost would certainly be cheaper if twice as much devices were produced.

So it leads to some questions about donations :
- If somebody donates 200, how many devices will be built thanks to his donation ? (only 1, as I understand)
- if he does two 100 donations, how many devices will be built thanks to his donations ? (2, as I understand)
Then, if he isn't able to buy two devices, will he be allowed to merge his two 100 discount and buy only one device with a 200 discount ?

Donating 100+ two times could be a nice way to make know we are interrested in buying two devices if they're affordable, without "losing" a discount if we can only afford one.
But it would mean too there may remain some "orphan" devices produced at the end of the first batch...

Last edited by Bearserker; 2014-10-13 at 11:41.
 

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endsormeans's Avatar
Posts: 2,462 | Thanked: 6,073 times | Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World
#2134
Well personal perspective...
I donated...when then it was time to shunt the donation to Neo UG ...I figured I wouldn't wait for the transfer...donated again to the new structured neo UG and not long after my original donation caught up and both were merged...makes the final price tag a wee bit less.
I was debating (internally) getting 2 full units...or 1 full unit and a board...or simply 2 motherboards (cheapest option) ...I was concerned the same as you my good sir...redundancy...guts-wise little will be different shy of the board. So spare n900 parts may do the trick. I think if the need were to arise for a replacement motherboard...subsequent 2nd and 3rd production runs will accommodate. I don't believe this is going to culminate in a one-and-only run. Once the neo900 is distributed and in use...more and more people will want one ...desire is a powerful thing.

I am sorry here though...I will have to laugh....loudly...
Hhahahahahaha!
An "orphaned" neo900 going for cheaper because no one stepped up to claim it?
That is funny...
naw...I 'm sure the very next person in line who wanted one but was too late for the 1st run...will get 1st dibs...if not interested...then the next person waiting for the 2nd run will get their shot at the wayward "orphan". Doubt there will be a crumb on the floor...except perhaps motherboards that didn't work out...with flaws...wifi doesn't work or bluetooth...or something. I do know "my" neo900 sure isn't getting "orphaned". Not unless Hell itself freezes over and Lou himself puts on his ice skates and does a complete one man reenactment of Will Ferrel's "Blades of Glory" ...so yeah...And I'm pretty much positive that 99.9% of the other donator/ investors are of the same mind.
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Owner of :
1-n770 (in retirement), 3-n800's , 3-n810's (still in daily use), 5-n900's ((3 are flawless, 1 has loose usb ( considering it for parts), 1 has no telephony (perfect for permanent set-up as mini-pc with one of my monitors))
1/2 - neo900 pre- "purchased" in 2013. Awaiting refund process.
3-nexus 5's : 1 with ̶L̶i̶n̶e̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶O̶r̶e̶o̶ ̶8.̶1̶ P̷l̷a̷s̷m̷a̷ ̷M̷o̷b̷i̷l̷e̷ Lineage oreo 8.1 (intend maemo leste when ready) , 1 with ̶U̶b̶u̶n̶t̶u̶ ̶T̶o̶u̶c̶h̶ Bliss OS, 1 with ̶P̶l̶a̶s̶m̶a̶ ̶M̶o̶b̶i̶l̶e̶ Maru OS


PIMP MY N8X0
Idiot's Guide and a video walkthrough.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94294
THE LOST GRONMAYER CATALOGS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ight=gronmayer
N8X0 VIDEO ENCODING THE EASY WAY
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ght=mediacoder
242gb ON N800
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90634
THE PAIN-FREE MAEMO DEVELOPMENT LIVE DISTRO-ISO FOR THE NOOB TO THE PRO
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95567
AFFORDABLE MASS PRODUCTION FOR MAEMO PARTS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93325
 

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#2135
Getting a second unit is useful :
- to have a replacement device if needed (1st device lost/broken/etc.)
- to have a R&D device (make some "unsafe" dev without bricking your daily phone, etc.)
While in the first case it's fine to wait for a second run, getting a second device from the start can be useful in the second case.

I call "orphan device" a device which built (because of a 100+€ donation) but not sold to his donator (because the final price is too expensive).
I'm not saying (at all) an orphan device should be sold cheaper. I'm just saying I hope every "orphan" will find a buyer, because each produced and unsold neo900 is an amount of money spent and not paid back.
So, the goal is to avoid unsold devices, and consequently to avoid getting "too many" orphan devices.

You may be confident every neo900 will be sold, but I'm sadly not so optimistic.
I'm confident the Neo900 will rock and fill the most my needs, but I'm sure it's a niche product (mostly designed for geeks and computer scientists).
If you take the example of open pandora (the open device I know the most), it's a freaking good (retro)gaming device, but there are still 30 for sale on dragonbox.de (classic + rebirth + 1 GHz) whereas the production stopped about 1 year ago and everybody knows from then they are the last one available (next pandora runs will only concern pyras).

So, if we consider allowing two donations to be eventually merged in one discount after the price of the neo900 is set :
Good thing : it may encourage donators to do multiple 100+€ donations (in order to eventually buy more than 1 device) -> it brings more funds and reduces the "per device" cost
Bad thing : it increases the number of potential orphan devices

That's why I wand to know :
Once the final price of a Neo900 is set, will a donator of multiple 100+€ be allowed to merge his discounts ?
 

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endsormeans's Avatar
Posts: 2,462 | Thanked: 6,073 times | Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World
#2136
I concur with the pandora assessment.
Fact is the pandora is exactly that...a retro gaming device that runs some linux distros. Amazing device...yup. (Was thinking of getting one...but am now waiting for the Pyra...and then I'll prob throw money down then when ordering commences.)
There is a huge difference tho between the neo900 and the pandora/pyra
...the neo is far more compact/ portable...it's phone function, the utilization of running alt distros properly, and the fact that Freemantle os will have at it's fingertips the depth, diversity and scope of the years of design and development of n900's Fremantle (and possibly...potentially... modified Chinook/Diablo Harmattan...etc..) maemo applications and programs make that a different kind of beast to the pandora and I believe a different set of circumstances and foreseeable outcomes concerning sales and possible "orphaned" devices. A more on-par example to the neo would be the gta04... No "orphaned" devices available there.
Joerg can answer more clearly how the device donations are fathomed and understood and applied to production and how possible "leftover/ unclaimed/ orphaned/ unwanted" devices will be dealt with.

Concerning these topics
A- I simply have been running with what I understand to be the process.
B- What I have wished/ done with my own donations/ deposits,
C- Logically extrapolated various outcomes.
So ...yeah...a wee bit o' supposition on my part...
pretty much a...wait and see...and get more deets... kinda sitch
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Member since 2013,
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Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.~ Austin O'Malley

Owner of :
1-n770 (in retirement), 3-n800's , 3-n810's (still in daily use), 5-n900's ((3 are flawless, 1 has loose usb ( considering it for parts), 1 has no telephony (perfect for permanent set-up as mini-pc with one of my monitors))
1/2 - neo900 pre- "purchased" in 2013. Awaiting refund process.
3-nexus 5's : 1 with ̶L̶i̶n̶e̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶O̶r̶e̶o̶ ̶8.̶1̶ P̷l̷a̷s̷m̷a̷ ̷M̷o̷b̷i̷l̷e̷ Lineage oreo 8.1 (intend maemo leste when ready) , 1 with ̶U̶b̶u̶n̶t̶u̶ ̶T̶o̶u̶c̶h̶ Bliss OS, 1 with ̶P̶l̶a̶s̶m̶a̶ ̶M̶o̶b̶i̶l̶e̶ Maru OS


PIMP MY N8X0
Idiot's Guide and a video walkthrough.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94294
THE LOST GRONMAYER CATALOGS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ight=gronmayer
N8X0 VIDEO ENCODING THE EASY WAY
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ght=mediacoder
242gb ON N800
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90634
THE PAIN-FREE MAEMO DEVELOPMENT LIVE DISTRO-ISO FOR THE NOOB TO THE PRO
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95567
AFFORDABLE MASS PRODUCTION FOR MAEMO PARTS
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93325

Last edited by endsormeans; 2014-10-13 at 15:36.
 

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#2137
there will be no orphaned devices since we start production for a device only _after_ we received payment for it. We do this since we a) don't have the money to build devices on our own and then offer them for sales, and b) since we got a kind of warranty from our fab that the devices will work exactly like the prototype, we won't need to worry about production desasters.
For same reason we won't allow concatenating or splitting of donations, we need a good estimation of the amount of devices that are really bindingly preordered. We will have sufficient spare boards for warranty and repair, don't worry. Sure you're more than welcome to preorder a 2nd device (by donating 100+ a second time), alas our margin (only thing we _theoretically_ could give up to reduce the cost of a 2nd device, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...09#post1442609) is only a one digit percentage presumably, and that would be considered both a poor rebate and a spoiler for the guys investing much of their time into the project for way too little refund.

For the price reduction by higher volume of devices to build: this will mainly apply to the factor "R&D-expense / number-of-devices" Our estimated total R&D expense so far is very roughly a 150 EUR per device, when building a batch of 500 (or 75k total, to do the math for you), so when building twice the number of devices, the R&D cost per device will halve, iow 75EUR less. Volume discounts at sourcing components kicks in at differing levels depending on particular component and source, but very usually not before buying a 1000 components (for CPU/SoC however a zone of no more substantial rebates starts at as little as 100). Another few usual thresholds are 2000 and 2500.

/j

Last edited by joerg_rw; 2014-10-14 at 09:35.
 

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#2138
[QUOTE=joerg_rw;1442858]there will be no orphaned devices since we start production for a device only _after_ we received payment for it. HOW MUCH DOES IT COST, AND WHERE DO I SEND PAYMENT?
 
joerg_rw's Avatar
Posts: 2,210 | Thanked: 12,538 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#2139
Originally Posted by anim1 View Post
[noQUOTE=joerg_rw;1442858]there will be no orphaned devices since we start production for a device only _after_ we received payment for it. HOW MUCH DOES IT COST, AND WHERE DO I SEND PAYMENT?
please see http://neo900.org/faq#cost and http://neo900.org/faq#buy
Thanks for your interest in the project!
cheers
jOERG
 
Posts: 273 | Thanked: 373 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ NYC
#2140
Hey jOERG,

I'm seriously considering buying one of these boards. I have the donate page open waiting all the time .

Do you have any good estimates as to when the order cut off day might be? If I can get one I would hate to miss out simply buy a day/week or so.

Thanks and the work you guys are doing is really appreciated by people like me, that are trying to hold onto there privacy and to limit control on data by large corporations.

x
 

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