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uTMY	2011-02-16 , 00:52
Posts: 131 \| Thanked: 62 times \| Joined on Feb 2010	#21

Originally Posted by ericsson

The Linux kernel is bloatware. Symbian was (still is) lean and mean, but probably too much so?. WP is modern, and not that much unlike Symbian. If Symbian was to be modernized from the ground up, it would be very similar to WP.

Android is for kids, iOS is for girls, RIM is for old farts, and WP is for the rest of us. Symbian is too cool for this world, and MeeGo is just too MeeGo.

I'm actually looking forward to a Nokia with WP. But if the MeeGo device coming got a HW keyboard, and the next 1GHz+ Symbian got a HW keyboard, I really don't know what to do.

I wonder what happened to U8500 twin core A9? It should be here soon, but with all this going on, maybe not.

muppet

rgds

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	Copernicus	2011-02-16 , 00:53
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#22

Originally Posted by danramos

You seem quite sure that they didn't acquire their market dominance through NDA's, threats of pulling stock from shelves, strangling contracts and inventing clever legal maneuvers and loopholes to exploit over the years--which, ironically, seem to me to be backfiring lately? Weren't they kind of famous for that through most of the 80's and 90's?

Hey, that's all part of the game, right? All modern major companies use every tool available to them to succeed. Microsoft has often faced rivals just as cutthroat in business as they are. (And yes, Microsoft has many times had to pay for their cutthroat practices backfiring as well.)

However, through it all, they've somehow managed to find the perfect line to keep their products relevant enough to remain dominant in the market and their practices legal enough to keep from being broken up.

I am, as you may have noticed from my posts, no fan of Microsoft's products!

But you've gotta respect how this company grabs any sector it enters by the throat and never lets go. Like many here, I have my suspicions that Nokia's recent WP7 decision is just one more instance of this amazing ability...

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	Copernicus	2011-02-16 , 01:02
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#23

Originally Posted by slaapliedje

Wow, you just named Internet Explorer as one of Microsoft's best products....

While you are correct in saying that their best products were acquired from someone else, I'd have to say the product was most likely better before MS got a hold of them. I know IE was.

Oh, heck, whether these products were better before Microsoft acquired them or whether better products still exist outside Microsoft is an entirely different question!

You've at least gotta admit that Internet Explorer, as a Microsoft product, has been one of its most successful -- even today, in its various incarnations, it still ranks as the top browser in use on the net from all the statistics I can find...

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	zwer	2011-02-16 , 01:26
	Posts: 455 \| Thanked: 782 times \| Joined on Nov 2009 @ Netherlands	#24

Originally Posted by Copernicus

Honestly, Microsoft has been at its most spectacular when applying its marketing know-how to creative products acquired externally, and suffered its worst defeats when attempting to build products entirely in-house. So yeah, I do believe that Microsoft has some sort of a problem with technological innovation; at the very least, the true talent in the company lies elsewhere.

While I partially agree with what you've said, I wouldn't really write off Microsoft's success as their remarkable ability to market their products. That's Apple's biggest strength, not Microsoft's. Microsoft is much better at arm-twisting, big promises, risk-management (as in - we'll do it even if it's shady, even if it may affect our image, as long as the fines are lower than the profit) and throwing its weight around.

As for innovation, judging by my substantial experience working with various Microsoft-owned departments and Microsoft-centric developers, it's nowhere to be found. Microsoft has that flair to stifle creativity and out-of-the-box thinking like no other company I know of. Now, I can't purely blame that on Microsoft, maybe people who like to `get it done and get over with it`, without thinking much what can be improved, are automatically drawn to Microsoft and their philosophy of computing and doing business, but I have never seen so much framed-in, almost phlegmatic, developers as the ones that are Microsoft-centric. They don't even care about the code they write, they don't even care about future expandability, theirs is just to type it in as a bunch of monkeys on typewriters and move on - non Microsoft-centric developers usually consider programming as a form of art (count me in!

), as a mean of creative expression. Such approach, however, grants high productivity, so it's not without merit to business owners, and it comes as no surprise that Microsoft solutions sell - but it comes with a huge cost of severely limited ability to innovate and look-ahead. They will never be able to write all the Shakespearean works despite the popular belief - millions of monkeys typing on a million typewriters cannot produce all the works of William Shakespeare, Facebook is the obvious example of that.

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Last edited by zwer; 2011-02-16 at 01:29.

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	Copernicus	2011-02-16 , 01:37
	Posts: 1,986 \| Thanked: 7,698 times \| Joined on Dec 2010 @ Dayton, Ohio	#25

Originally Posted by zwer

Microsoft is much better at arm-twisting, big promises, risk-management (as in - we'll do it even if it's shady, even if it may affect our image, as long as the fines are lower than the profit) and throwing its weight around.

But isn't that exactly how marketing works in today's world?

(Maybe I'm just a cynic...)

I don't think I view Microsoft's programming practices quite as poorly as you may, but yeah, I have to agree that "programming as a form of art" is just about as far away from Microsoft's system as it is possible to be.

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	sondjata	2011-02-16 , 01:46
	Posts: 1,076 \| Thanked: 176 times \| Joined on Mar 2007	#26

Originally Posted by ericsson

iOS is for girls...

Sexist much?

__________________
---
N800
Diablo
Boot from MMC
Gpodder Cache on MMC
MTube Cache on MMC
Mugen 1800mAh Battery
Addesso USB rollup keyboard
Solio Solar Charger
Holux GPSlim GPS

N810
community SSU
Turbo Diablo
8GB external
Boot from Internal SD
Still no GPS Fix.

N900
Stock
32GB
Many Solar Chargers (Saved bacon during Sandy!)
Inland ProHT BT keyboard
What's this? A GPS Fix? Wowwwwwww

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	allnameswereout	2011-02-16 , 02:10
	Posts: 3,397 \| Thanked: 1,212 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands	#27

Originally Posted by ironm8

IF they really got billions from M$, so they at least they werent bought for free.

So did Novell. And some other folks.

Do you remember all these settlements Microsoft made with competitors after they destroyed said competitors? Such as Novell? Sun? What came out of that? Patent deal creating FUD for the rest of the community. Pure divide & conquer.

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	danramos	2011-02-16 , 06:12
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#28

Originally Posted by zwer

While I partially agree with what you've said, I wouldn't really write off Microsoft's success as their remarkable ability to market their products. That's Apple's biggest strength, not Microsoft's. Microsoft is much better at arm-twisting, big promises, risk-management (as in - we'll do it even if it's shady, even if it may affect our image, as long as the fines are lower than the profit) and throwing its weight around.

As for innovation, judging by my substantial experience working with various Microsoft-owned departments and Microsoft-centric developers, it's nowhere to be found. Microsoft has that flair to stifle creativity and out-of-the-box thinking like no other company I know of. Now, I can't purely blame that on Microsoft, maybe people who like to `get it done and get over with it`, without thinking much what can be improved, are automatically drawn to Microsoft and their philosophy of computing and doing business, but I have never seen so much framed-in, almost phlegmatic, developers as the ones that are Microsoft-centric. They don't even care about the code they write, they don't even care about future expandability, theirs is just to type it in as a bunch of monkeys on typewriters and move on - non Microsoft-centric developers usually consider programming as a form of art (count me in! ), as a mean of creative expression. Such approach, however, grants high productivity, so it's not without merit to business owners, and it comes as no surprise that Microsoft solutions sell - but it comes with a huge cost of severely limited ability to innovate and look-ahead. They will never be able to write all the Shakespearean works despite the popular belief - millions of monkeys typing on a million typewriters cannot produce all the works of William Shakespeare, Facebook is the obvious example of that.

I wanted to "thank" Zwer repeatedly for getting it, but it doesn't get any better.

__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR