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2011-07-07
, 20:51
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Posts: 92 |
Thanked: 134 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
@ Europe
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#1622
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Originally Posted by danramos
Nokia has a longer development cycle for Maemo because they need to do all of the work, where for Android oftentimes the hardware adaptation is in part already done by chipset vendors. Nokia had no intention of under speccing the N9. In this case the software was not ready, which is why the device got delayed. Would it have launched 6 months earlier, the CPU spec would be on par. don't start that BS about Harmattan being Maemo in essence so they should be quicker. Obviously the failed marriage with Intel also delayed the development.
Why are Android and iOS devices able to develop with far more leading edge hardware within their development cycles? Apple even works on their own whole OS during that same cycle. Android has an open-source community helping (actually helping!) the development in addition to the community of handset manufacturers within that same development cycle, too.
How does Nokia square that with also having an open-source community built around Maemo who WANT to help develop during the development cycle so that they can concentrate on building better hardware?
Symbian is a different story, because there the very long development cycles Nokia used to have are compounded with the intent of capitalizing on the fact Symbian is an efficient OS by using slower CPU.s etc.
The real question here is, are we really happy with a spec pissing contest? The entire Android game is a spec pissing contest in part because without a monster cpu, android has a very laggy UI. OEM have no way of differentiating outside hyping Ghz numbers. Should this not really be about quality? Usability? Image quality? Audio quality, reception, battery life, quality of the UI, how well something multitasks, is it able to be used with one hand, etc etc.
Rant: Are Samsung LG and HTC not really the Asus of the smartphone world. Where is the innovation or added value there? The UI skins they make blow. Is it not a sad state of affairs to see Android become the windows of smartphones and destroy diversity?
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2011-07-07
, 20:51
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Posts: 1,097 |
Thanked: 650 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
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#1623
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Originally Posted by gerbick
Yeah, its portable computer - who says its a "desktop in your pocket" ?
Then why do folks continue to say "it's a portable computer in my pocket"? That in itself skews the expected experience for the casual reader/user.
Let's be honest, a Linux Desktop Experience in our pocket just isn't consumer friendly. Whereas the N9 could be consumer friendly, the missing bits are too blatant to ignore.
Trust me... I get what you're saying. But to say that it didn't disappoint some former fans is overlooking why people are spewing forth the same stuff ad nauseum. Just like folks are spewing the same ol' "I love my N900" stuff.
Equilibrium. Sometimes it's needed.
Why do you conflate the two terms - computing with desktop ?
Maybe its just years of using a desktop that is the reason we cant think in a new way and use the old blinders to see new paradigms ?
Again I dont know - but that not how I see it.
And Gerbick, I also agree with some of the dissapointments that you and Dan (and myself) share. -but lets look forward, the old dissapointments arent gong to right itself in this changing ecosystem of a mobile world.
What we have to consider is is the new path that Nokia is trying with Meego/Harmattan a sustainable path - a new path indeed - a intuitive and productive path for us ?
Thats the real question.
Not whay did Nokia abandon the N800 path ?
Last edited by nilchak; 2011-07-07 at 20:56.
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2011-07-07
, 21:46
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Posts: 4,672 |
Thanked: 5,455 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
@ Springfield, MA, USA
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#1624
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Originally Posted by nilchak
Don't you worry your precious little head about it--eventually, it'll stop. Eventually, it'll all stop and go silent at this rate.
Heres the low down - you keep showelling your diasagreements on Nokia's direction and its devices since the N800 on all of us. Now while I may agree with some of your points, I dont keep spewing mya disagreements on and on and on - its just gets boring - even to myself. (So I dont know how you like hearing yourself spewing the same old points time and again).
Originally Posted by NOMOS
Oh whew! That's a relief! So it's finally running MeeGo, then?
Nokia has a longer development cycle for Maemo because they need to do all of the work, where for Android oftentimes the hardware adaptation is in part already done by chipset vendors. Nokia had no intention of under speccing the N9. In this case the software was not ready, which is why the device got delayed. Would it have launched 6 months earlier, the CPU spec would be on par. don't start that BS about Harmattan being Maemo in essence so they should be quicker. Obviously the failed marriage with Intel also delayed the development.
Symbian is a different story, because there the very long development cycles Nokia used to have are compounded with the intent of capitalizing on the fact Symbian is an efficient OS by using slower CPU.s etc.
The real question here is, are we really happy with a spec pissing contest? The entire Android game is a spec pissing contest in part because without a monster cpu, android has a very laggy UI. OEM have no way of differentiating outside hyping Ghz numbers. Should this not really be about quality? Usability? Image quality? Audio quality, reception, battery life, quality of the UI, how well something multitasks, is it able to be used with one hand, etc etc.
Rant: Are Samsung LG and HTC not really the Asus of the smartphone world. Where is the innovation or added value there? The UI skins they make blow. Is it not a sad state of affairs to see Android become the windows of smartphones and destroy diversity?
I find the rest of your arguments baseless. I don't find the UI laggy or slow and I find it to be efficient enough to run exquisitely even on my old Motorola Droid. That's sufficiently efficient enough for an old device, more than efficient enough for new devices. As for the innovations, plenty of it is in developing the HARDWARE--where HARDWARE manufacturers should be concentrating while SOFTWARE developers at Google and in the cmmunity develop SOFTWARE. Seems pretty common-sense.
Originally Posted by nilchak
Here's the thing.. whenever people said, 'this SUCKS as a phone', the response was always, 'IT'S A COMPUTER FIRST!' The idea being to distance the device from being a handset phone device and representing more of a desktop computer experience in a handset form factor.
Yeah, its portable computer - who says its a "desktop in your pocket" ?
Why do you conflate the two terms - computing with desktop ?
Maybe its just years of using a desktop that is the reason we cant think in a new way and use the old blinders to see new paradigms ?
Again I dont know - but that not how I see it.
And Gerbick, I also agree with some of the dissapointments that you and Dan (and myself) share. -but lets look forward, the old dissapointments arent gong to right itself in this changing ecosystem of a mobile world.
What we have to consider is is the new path that Nokia is trying with Meego/Harmattan a sustainable path - a new path indeed - a intuitive and productive path for us ?
Thats the real question.
Not whay did Nokia abandon the N800 path ?
Now you're possibly arguing that it's not a computer and it's just another ME TOO handset form factor? Ponderous, lad. That leads down roads I prefer not to go down. Meanwhile, the INTERNET TABLET form factor that Nokia nearly had in its grasp with the "desktop computing experience" arguments in a portable device are being adopted by everyone else as their phone OS's slowly evolve into more and more functional "desktop computing experience" devices (i.e. Atrix, Transformer, Icona, etc.). I would argue that Nokia WAS heading the way of tablets, but then got caught up in the iPhone/Android ME TOO wars instead of being the leader of the INTERNET TABLETS that they had rightfully forged ahead on long before the others were going there. It's a shame and a wasted opportunity.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
| The Following User Says Thank You to danramos For This Useful Post: | ||
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2011-07-07
, 21:48
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Posts: 415 |
Thanked: 182 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Leeds UK
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#1625
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Originally Posted by NOMOS
ummm.... so compare the cpu in the iphone4 to the n9...
Would it have launched 6 months earlier, the CPU spec would be on par.
One is an A9 the other one is basically the same as the n900 (but at a higher clock) isn't it?
Originally Posted by NOMOS
As far as Samsung goes the hardware is the innovation, not everything is about UI skins, it's a combination - which is why although the N9 may have dinosaur hardware, but speed wise it will probably only be 6 months behind
Rant: Are Samsung LG and HTC not really the Asus of the smartphone world. Where is the innovation or added value there? The UI skins they make blow. Is it not a sad state of affairs to see Android become the windows of smartphones and destroy diversity?
__________________
Life on the edge....always waiting to fall
Life on the edge....always waiting to fall
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2011-07-07
, 22:03
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Posts: 819 |
Thanked: 806 times |
Joined on Jun 2009
@ Oxnard, Ca.
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#1626
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Originally Posted by NOMOS
The fact still remains Nokia phones have slow processors.
Nokia has a longer development cycle for Maemo because they need to do all of the work, where for Android oftentimes the hardware adaptation is in part already done by chipset vendors. Nokia had no intention of under speccing the N9. In this case the software was not ready, which is why the device got delayed. Would it have launched 6 months earlier, the CPU spec would be on par. don't start that BS about Harmattan being Maemo in essence so they should be quicker. Obviously the failed marriage with Intel also delayed the development.
Symbian is a different story, because there the very long development cycles Nokia used to have are compounded with the intent of capitalizing on the fact Symbian is an efficient OS by using slower CPU.s etc.
The real question here is, are we really happy with a spec pissing contest? The entire Android game is a spec pissing contest in part because without a monster cpu, android has a very laggy UI. OEM have no way of differentiating outside hyping Ghz numbers. Should this not really be about quality? Usability? Image quality? Audio quality, reception, battery life, quality of the UI, how well something multitasks, is it able to be used with one hand, etc etc.
Rant: Are Samsung LG and HTC not really the Asus of the smartphone world. Where is the innovation or added value there? The UI skins they make blow. Is it not a sad state of affairs to see Android become the windows of smartphones and destroy diversity?
There I said it.....
My LG G2x (which is slim) has a dual core with gpu and removable battery and sd card slot, what is Nokia's excuse? This phone was released 4/20
Long development cycle fine!
OS uses the cpu better fine!
This LG G2x was released 4/20 and now September for N9 with single core, non removable battery, no sd slot, no flash in browser?
How can I not think Elop took a shite on Harmattan project?
If this is just a first device and there will be many more harmattan devices transitioning over to meego (ux transfer) devices then I'm fine with that.
But it does not seem that way.
Maybe this is a fake out move by Elop - make Intel carry the burden of meego and let all the other maufacturers feel safe about making devices for meego (after all Nokia has no control over it now) and then nokia will step in in 2 years when a quadzillion cars, boats, tv's, tablets and phones are using meego and make another spec'd out phone with a nice UX like N9.
If so then I'll bow down to his chubby little ihop chef looking arse and praise him.
I really do not prefer stock Android it seems way too consumery and I would like it to have a little bit of N900 N810 mixed in (that feeling of I can fly free and modify the crap out of it) however I have yet to take advantage of the Cyanogen mod 7 version of android for my LG G2x which everyone is praising here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...08201&page=164
So I really can't speak for those who are running this beast with CM7.
I think I'll get the evolve III Maestro C
It triple boots meego, WP7 and Android.
http://www.evolvethree.com.au/produc...nvertible.html
I'll also get the N9 but just because it's included in the QT fiasco and I know this community will modify the crap out of it and make it do some nice shite.
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2011-07-07
, 22:07
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Posts: 1,097 |
Thanked: 650 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
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#1627
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Originally Posted by danramos
Well I can't speak for all the other peopl's opinions whan asked "What is the n900" can I ?
Here's the thing.. whenever people said, 'this SUCKS as a phone', the response was always, 'IT'S A COMPUTER FIRST!' The idea being to distance the device from being a handset phone device and representing more of a desktop computer experience in a handset form factor.
Now you're possibly arguing that it's not a computer and it's just another ME TOO handset form factor? Ponderous, lad. That leads down roads I prefer not to go down. Meanwhile, the INTERNET TABLET form factor that Nokia nearly had in its grasp with the "desktop computing experience" arguments in a portable device are being adopted by everyone else as their phone OS's slowly evolve into more and more functional "desktop computing experience" devices (i.e. Atrix, Transformer, Icona, etc.). I would argue that Nokia WAS heading the way of tablets, but then got caught up in the iPhone/Android ME TOO wars instead of being the leader of the INTERNET TABLETS that they had rightfully forged ahead on long before the others were going there. It's a shame and a wasted opportunity.
Originally Posted by danramos
No I am not arguing that - you just replied to my post which said "dont conflate comuting with desktop" and here you go making that stawman argument.
Now you're possibly arguing that it's not a computer and it's just another ME TOO handset form factor? .
Let me say this in B/W. It is a computer - it aint a desktop.
See there you provided me with a nice mental imagery to compare ...
See the blue big rotary phone in your orig. post ? Now what similarities do you see with a mobile phone of today (say an iPhone) ?
Apart from the fact that both rings whan a call comes in and on both you can call somebody - and on both you can talk to another person, and on both you hang up - i.e. on both it walks and talks like a phone. So they are both phones.
But one is a rotary phone using a very different technology and a UI paradigm and communication protocal than the mobile phone of today.
So if someone tells you hey, we have a new phone out for your pockets, do you immediately imagine in your mind using a nice blue big rotary landline phone to carry aound in your pockets (complete with spools of wire and all) ? No you dont, cause you have learnt to diassociate that ponderous imagery of the phone term from the rotary phones of yesterday.
How about trying that with computing and a desktop computing ? Trust me its not that hard.
Last edited by nilchak; 2011-07-07 at 22:09.
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2011-07-07
, 22:09
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Posts: 457 |
Thanked: 600 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
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#1628
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^
the iphone 4 has a 800Mhz Cortex A8.
the n9 a 1Ghz A8 which can easily be overclocked to 1.2 Ghz if you want.
The SGX535 does the same amount of triangles/sec (14m) as the SGX530, but has a higher fillrate (500 vs 1000), don't know how relevant the fillrate is in practice, I guess its not a limiting factor for the n9 screen resolution.
The n9 has 1g ram > 512mb
So compared to the iphone4 i would rate the specs of the n9 better. iphone 5 is another story of course.
Last edited by Rugoz; 2011-07-07 at 22:11.
the iphone 4 has a 800Mhz Cortex A8.
the n9 a 1Ghz A8 which can easily be overclocked to 1.2 Ghz if you want.
The SGX535 does the same amount of triangles/sec (14m) as the SGX530, but has a higher fillrate (500 vs 1000), don't know how relevant the fillrate is in practice, I guess its not a limiting factor for the n9 screen resolution.
The n9 has 1g ram > 512mb
So compared to the iphone4 i would rate the specs of the n9 better. iphone 5 is another story of course.
Last edited by Rugoz; 2011-07-07 at 22:11.
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2011-07-07
, 22:11
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Posts: 79 |
Thanked: 40 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ holland
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#1629
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Originally Posted by aironeous
Wow i wish they will make a phone like the evolve Maestro c boot three os
The fact still remains Nokia phones have slow processors.
There I said it.....
My LG G2x (which is slim) has a dual core with gpu and removable battery and sd card slot, what is Nokia's excuse? This phone was released 4/20
Long development cycle fine!
OS uses the cpu better fine!
This LG G2x was released 4/20 and now September for N9 with single core, non removable battery, no sd slot, no flash in browser?
How can I not think Elop took a shite on Harmattan project?
If this is just a first device and there will be many more harmattan devices transitioning over to meego (ux transfer) devices then I'm fine with that.
But it does not seem that way.
Maybe this is a fake out move by Elop - make Intel carry the burden of meego and let all the other maufacturers feel safe about making devices for meego (after all Nokia has no control over it now) and then nokia will step in in 2 years when a quadzillion cars, boats, tv's, tablets and phones are using meego and make another spec'd out phone with a nice UX like N9.
If so then I'll bow down to his chubby little ihop chef looking arse and praise him.
I really do not prefer stock Android it seems way too consumery and I would like it to have a little bit of N900 N810 mixed in (that feeling of I can fly free and modify the crap out of it) however I have yet to take advantage of the Cyanogen mod 7 version of android for my LG G2x which everyone is praising here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...08201&page=164
So I really can't speak for those who are running this beast with CM7.
I think I'll get the evolve III Maestro C
It triple boots meego, WP7 and Android.
http://www.evolvethree.com.au/produc...nvertible.html
I'll also get the N9 but just because it's included in the QT fiasco and I know this community will modify the crap out of it and make it do some nice shite.
Hope the N9 can get a Dual boot mango and meego that will be nice
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2011-07-07
, 22:27
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Posts: n/a |
Thanked: 0 times |
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#1630
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Originally Posted by nilchak
But when you say portable computer... and you don't denote otherwise, the connotation is wide open to mean "desktop". More words would alleviate the lack of understanding.
Yeah, its portable computer - who says its a "desktop in your pocket" ?
Why do you conflate the two terms - computing with desktop ?
Maybe its just years of using a desktop that is the reason we cant think in a new way and use the old blinders to see new paradigms?
And Gerbick, I also agree with some of the dissapointments that you and Dan (and myself) share. -but lets look forward, the old dissapointments arent gong to right itself in this changing ecosystem of a mobile world.
Thank goodness Maemo could actually make both parties - the consumer and the developer happy. Problem is... it ain't doing it yet.
What we have to consider is is the new path that Nokia is trying with Meego/Harmattan a sustainable path - a new path indeed - a intuitive and productive path for us?
That is not how you build a sustainable path.
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Let's be honest, a Linux Desktop Experience in our pocket just isn't consumer friendly. Whereas the N9 could be consumer friendly, the missing bits are too blatant to ignore.
Trust me... I get what you're saying. But to say that it didn't disappoint some former fans is overlooking why people are spewing forth the same stuff ad nauseum. Just like folks are spewing the same ol' "I love my N900" stuff.
Equilibrium. Sometimes it's needed.